acco40 Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Dan, Old and bald are more physical decriptions (but both or relative). I'm a good ole Bear, thank you very much. Back to Gilwell, happy land ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Acco40, Since this is true confession time, I have about 40% left. This is ok for us because it is usually the result of more-than-adequate testosterone (and some genetics). My daughter thinks I'm old...we don't see eye-to-eye on this (but she is probably right). littlebillie, you raised a really good question. If the churches themselves are struggling with the faith-based funding initiatives, then the permutations for BSA are staggering. Their inability to fathom the implications of a HUD grant indicates that they will not be up to this task either. My solution to the funding needs is to dump a whole bunch of professionals and close some offices, slim down, become efficient, trim the fat. It worked for Xerox and KMart is trying it as well. If they kept our Scout camp, the rest of my council could go away and no-one would notice. Merlyn can come to this forum for no other purpose than to learn from the immortals... or to provoke comment. I have no problem either way. He's welcome as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Hi packsaddle, I don't recall anyone telling Merlyn leRoy that he could not post here. This ia a question that goes back for months. The founders of this Board ste the purpose for it's existence as.. "a grass root resource to equip Scout leaders with the tools to fulfill their responsibilities... as leaders, as parents and as mentors." I see all of the posters on this board fullfilling this mission through their obvious interest and participation in the program, with one exception. Merlyn is not a participant in the program. His participation does not reflect the goals this baord was created for. His goal for being here has never been explained and I think he should be honest about his presence so that those who read his posts fully understand what he hope to accomplish. Merlyn has continually avoided answering this very straightforward question. BW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 31, 2003 Author Share Posted January 31, 2003 I have answered your question, many times; I'm an advocate for atheists' rights. You just don't like my answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Merlyn, again you share your motive but not your goal. I understand your principles although I do not not share them. Priciples determine actions, achieve goals. You have shared your principles, we have witnessed your actions you post pending lawsuits. All I'm asking is what are your goals, what do hope to accomplish. There is a reason behind all this that actually is in your benefit. If you would identify the goals it would allow both of us to learn something. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 31, 2003 Author Share Posted January 31, 2003 My goal is to remove all government BSA charters and all government funding of the BSA; it's unlawful for the government to charter BSA units, just as it would be unlawful for it to charter all-white youth groups, or fund them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Merlyn, Well now we are getting somewhere. Lets not even dwell on the all-white thing because there are hundreds of thousands of scouts and scouters in this nation that are not Caucasian. Lets stick to your goal. Everyone in life chooses a set of principles to live by. They are the constant unalterable truths we choose to govern every decision we make. For those of us who are scouts and scouters and even for many who aren't we accept the ideals of the scout oath and law to be those principles. That is neither right nor wrong that is just personal choice. Your life is governed by the principles you have selected. Principles are used to drive actions. I choose to be active in my church because I am driven by my belief that I have a duty to God and that I should be reverent in my actions. My goal in doing this is to live a life that respects the world I live in and the people that I believe God created. Whether or not you believe in God I hope you could agree that by following the principles of the 10 commandments one would do no harm to others and would probably make life pleasant for those around them. So my principles drive actions toward a specific goal that I can achieve by my actions. This is what I'm getting to Merlyn, you are letting others live your life and achieve your goals instead of you. Really stop to think about what you have said here. Your principles have determined that scouting is bad, we are liars, we discriminate, we break laws. So those principles have led you to the action of posting on this board. Your goal is to remove government funding from the BSA. Now be honest Merlyn, who on this board has that power? Who on this board by reading your posts will help you achieve your goals? Look at Glen Goodwin a person who probably shares many of the same principles you do and who has the same goals you have. Glen is taking actions that actually move toward his goal. Maybe he will succeed and maybe he won't. But he is doing something, he is taking action that could truly affect the outcome. Glen could have a legacy of being the person that took government funding from scouting and took government support from scouting. Your goals Merlyn. And what part of that legacy will you own? Do you think Glen will ever say, "Boy if Merlyn hadnt been writing to all those people who have nothing to do with changing the law I could never have done this!". The mission of scouting is to give young people the tools to make ethical decisions for their lifetime based on the principles found in the scout Oath and Law. We teach them to set goals and to take actions to meet those goals. The very thing lacking in your life could have been gained as a scout. My purpose in asking for you goals was two fold. That everyone here understood that there was nothing positive or productive in your actions, but secondly and most importantly was to help you understand that you owe it to yourself to do something with the principles you hold and the goals you hope to attain. Your current actions will never bring you the legacy you want. A man once sat down in an ice fishing shed and cut a whole in the ice. He dropped in his line in the hopes of catching fish for dinner. Suddenly a voice boomed "THERE ARE NO FISH HERE". The man raced out of the shed and looked around and saw no one. Returning to his fishing whole he again heard "THERE ARE NO FISH HERE" Racing back onto the open ice and seeing no one he dropped to his knees and said, "is that you God?"...."NO" said the voice. "IT"S THE ICE RINK MANAGER AND THERE ARE NO FISH HERE"! Merlyn the power you seek to achieve your goals are in the courts with people like Glen Goodwin. If you really believe what you say you do then put your beliefs to actions that might really count, because Merlyn "THERE ARE NO FISH HERE"! Make something happen with your life, Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 I personally appreciate the information and perspective that Merlyn provides, even though I often disagree with his opinions. I hope he keeps posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 31, 2003 Author Share Posted January 31, 2003 Well now we are getting somewhere. Lets not even dwell on the all-white thing because there are hundreds of thousands of scouts and scouters in this nation that are not Caucasian. No, lets dwell on it. You do know what an "analogy" is, don't you? You seem to dismiss my analogy by saying there are non-white Scouts, which completely misses the point of an analogy. Do you think it would be lawful for the government to support an all-white youth group by chartering units (assuming the chartering process is the same as the BSA's)? That is, a government agency signs a charter agreement which includes enforcing the all-white organization's membership policy - the government agency will run a youth group, and exclude non-whites. Do you think it would be lawful for this organization to apply for a HUD grant to try and raise members, even though the HUD grant explicitly has nondiscrimination requirements attached? Finally, do you think nonwhites might try to stop the above acts? It's the same with the BSA and its religious discrimination. Lets stick to your goal. Everyone in life chooses a set of principles to live by. They are the constant unalterable truths we choose to govern every decision we make. For those of us who are scouts and scouters and even for many who aren't we accept the ideals of the scout oath and law to be those principles. That is neither right nor wrong that is just personal choice. Your life is governed by the principles you have selected. This has nothing to do with my stated goals of eliminating government support of a religiously discriminatory organization like the Boy Scouts. ... Whether or not you believe in God I hope you could agree that by following the principles of the 10 commandments one would do no harm to others and would probably make life pleasant for those around them. Uh, no. I've seen PLENTY of harm by people who claim they live by the 10 commandments. This is what I'm getting to Merlyn, you are letting others live your life and achieve your goals instead of you. Really stop to think about what you have said here. Your principles have determined that scouting is bad, we are liars, we discriminate, we break laws. So those principles have led you to the action of posting on this board. Your goal is to remove government funding from the BSA. Now be honest Merlyn, who on this board has that power? Who on this board by reading your posts will help you achieve your goals? Look at Glen Goodwin a person who probably shares many of the same principles you do and who has the same goals you have. Glen is taking actions that actually move toward his goal. You seem to think this is all I do; I've actually been helping both the S. California ACLU and the Illinois ACLU in their lawsuits against the BSA. When the Old Baldy council got the grant, I was in contact with the ACLU. I've found dozens of BSA units illegally chartered by government agencies and brought them to the attention of those states' ACLU affiliates. Believe me, I'm doing a lot more than you see here. The mission of scouting is to give young people the tools to make ethical decisions for their lifetime based on the principles found in the scout Oath and Law. We teach them to set goals and to take actions to meet those goals. The very thing lacking in your life could have been gained as a scout. Ah, now the insults. I'm apparently "lacking" ethical decisions? Are these decisions like Old Baldy defrauding HUD? Like the BSA dishonestly chartering BSA units to government agencies? By the way, I don't consider the BSA to be teaching ethics, since their Declaration of Religious Principle says that only theists can be the best kinds of citizens; atheists, apparently, can't be. That kind of religious bigotry isn't ethical. My purpose in asking for you goals was two fold. That everyone here understood that there was nothing positive or productive in your actions, but secondly and most importantly was to help you understand that you owe it to yourself to do something with the principles you hold and the goals you hope to attain. Your current actions will never bring you the legacy you want. You're just trying to get me to shut up; sorry, it won't work. I'll continue to expose the BSA's religious bigotry where I find it, and maybe a few scouters (not you, obviously) will reconsider belonging to the unethical and dishonest organization that the BSA has become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 I'm not trying to shut you up Merlyn, I trying to get you to see that the wheels are spinning but the car isn't moving. You write posts to people who cannot affect your goals, You call the ACLU to get them to take action for you. You collect articles about people who actually invest their time and resources in taking action. It's like the relative who sits by the scanner and listens to the police calls and imagines he is there fighting the crime with them instead of just sitting at home while the real officers do the work. I didn't say you didn't make ethical choices I said your actions will never achieve your goals. The posters on this board, whether you agree with there choice to be members of the BSA or not, invest themselves in the program. They don't just sit at home and phone it in, or post articles about other people who are out there doing the work instead of them. It's about building a personal legacy and its different for every person. But it it takes more than just having an opinion and having goals. It's about connecting the two with a plan and acting on the plan. If your plan is to topple scouting by posting articles about what other people are doing about it it's a bad plan. It will not get your goal. Even if you swayed 100 scouters a day that we could not have that money, it would take you over 33 years to persuade every one of us (including weekends and holidays) nad even then you would not have gotten to any one of the people who asked for the grant nor you would have affected the courts who make the decision. Can you hear the wheels spinning now? THERE ARE NO FISH HERE! The people you need to persuade are not the volunteers in scouting it is the courts and they are not here. Make your actions count, set goals that your actions affect, use your principles for more than phone calls and cyber posts. Do what we train scouts to do. Don't just make noise, Make a difference. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 31, 2003 Author Share Posted January 31, 2003 You write posts to people who cannot affect your goals, You call the ACLU to get them to take action for you. You collect articles about people who actually invest their time and resources in taking action. It's like the relative who sits by the scanner and listens to the police calls and imagines he is there fighting the crime with them instead of just sitting at home while the real officers do the work. No, I've actually done real work for the ACLUs I mentioned. And I would think there are SOME people here who might have some responsibilities in BSA councils, and a fraud lawsuit against Old Baldy (or the DA considering criminal charges in the Circle Ten fraudulent membership count in Texas) might make them actually consider if their council should sign a nondiscrimination agreement that they obviously can't follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Merlyn, My questions, your responses and my comments, were about what you are trying to do here on this board. Based on what you said your goals were for posting here, removing government funding, no action you take posting on this board could possibly affect that outcome. If I wanted a home loan it would not be for me to decide if I qualify or not. It is the responsibility of the lending institution to determine that. Your complaint is with the government not the volunteers of the BSA. Glen says that the BSA lied when the they agreed to accept the money, Well unless Glen is psychic he will probably have a difficult time proving that. But at least his actions have a chance of affecting his goal. Had you spent some time in scouting a volunteer like those on this board would have taken time away from their own family to help you learn to set clear, manageable goals. And you would have learned the legal concept of innocent until proven guilty through the advancement program. It's often difficult to evaluate our own choices. I offer that you might want to re-evaluate your goals here in comparison to your actions, and either alter your actions to meet your goals, or alter your goals to meet your actions. There truly are no fish here, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 merlyn, in your one post you state "the KKK legally discriminates, yet it would be just as legal for them to use a HUD grant to solicit membership in THEIR club." Why is this legal & the BSA use of the same funds illegal? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nldscout Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 The worst thing is no matter what is said to people like Merlyn, you are always wrong and they are always right. Public grants go to all kinds of activities everyday that I don't like. So Whats the point here Merlyn? One thing about this group, no matter your view's no one is outright insulting you or cussing you out like some of the groups that you belong to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 Merlyn, I understand and appreciate Bob White's point and I suspect you do too. Nevertheless, I value open discussion, even if some parties think it fruitless. I agree with NJ on this and I still welcome your views. That said, I may not be in total agreement with your goals. BSA may deserve, through their policies, to lose their congressional charter. But my goals have to do with youth who need the kind of programs and activities that are offered here. BSA has good programs although I disagree with BSA regarding their choice to exclude based on religion (or lack thereof). I refuse to turn my back on a child simply because of his religious background and I think BSA and the 'faith Nazis' are wrong to do this (no Scouts for you!) Personally, I think that Jesus would not turn his back on a child either, regardless of beliefs. I am willing to listen to anyone who thinks that He would. Furthermore, judging from your involvement with the ACLU, I suspect you also would help children without regard to background. I have a slightly different view on the prospect of change as well. BW may be correct that BSA will absolutely not change. If persons like me and some others stop trying simply because we disagree, BW is correct and the status quo is certain. Therefore, I offer encouragement to continue to be the pain that you are.. but consider some constructive options as well. nldscout, Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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