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ACLU sues Old Baldy council for fraudulent HUD grant


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Merlyn,

An analogy is an inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others. Since scouting does not agree with the actions of the white supremists that you sited in your example, then it was not an analogy.

 

Perhaps you meant a simile, where two totally different things are compared, often by using the words 'like' or 'as'. Like in "just as a white supremist". Or perhaps, as I have offered in the past, you are just a very angry person who really doesn't know what he means.

 

Anger blows out the lamp of the mind. Robert Green Ingersoll

 

(I think that was a metaphor.)

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Merlyn, why is it that you continue to compare the BSA, who accept anyone except gays and athiest, to groups such as the KKK and white supremist, who accept almost no one but themselves? Are you really trying to tell me that ALL other groups that get money through HUD accept ALL others no matter what?

As to the ACLU, they exist to sue. The group will go after anyone for any reason, real or imagined. It would be interesting to see some data on thier win percentages. I would suspect that most of the cases they bring before the courts are thrown out right after they get all the publicity they need.

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An analogy is an inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others. Since scouting does not agree with the actions of the white supremists that you sited in your example, then it was not an analogy.

 

Sorry, you really DON'T know what an analogy is.

 

My analogy was between your snide attitude towards me, and the attitude of a hypothetical white supremacist towards a Jew. You "justified" the BSA's exclusion of *all* atheists by implying that my "hostile" attitude was the real (justified) reason, when the BSA's actual reason is plain old religious bigotry; they don't exclude angry people, they don't allow nice atheists, they exclude ALL atheists. In other words, you were supporting the BSA's bigotry by trying to claim that I'm excluded, NOT because I'm an atheist, but because I'm angry. But that's simply lying to support the BSA's bigoted attitude.

 

I was comparing YOUR attitude towards me as an atheist, to a white supremacist's view of a Jew.

 

And to Colomike:

Are you really trying to tell me that ALL other groups that get money through HUD accept ALL others no matter what?

 

No, I'm saying ALL groups that get money through HUD have to accept the REQUIREMENTS, which includes nondiscrimination on the basis of religion and creed. The BSA does NOT meet this standard, as they discriminate on the basis of religion and creed.

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merlyn,

You say the BSA discriminates based on religion & creed. You forgot sex! No girls! I've noticed this isn't a problem for you. And if it's not, why are the others? Sounds like you only want to fight the ones you have a chance of winning!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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You say the BSA discriminates based on religion & creed. You forgot sex! No girls! I've noticed this isn't a problem for you.

 

I don't recall commenting one way or the other, so you have no basis for saying if it's a "problem" for me or not.

 

And if it's not, why are the others?

 

Because HUD grants prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion & creed; some single-sex programs ARE allowed under certain circumstances, which is also why public schools can have boys & girls basketball teams, but can't have a basketball team that excludes atheists or Jews.

 

Sounds like you only want to fight the ones you have a chance of winning!

 

Sounds like you don't know the law as well as I do.

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merlyn,

Never claimed to know the law as well as you. But discrimination is discrimination regardless of what you are discriminationg against. And in the BSA's case, the Supreme Court agreed with the BSA so that makes it legal!

 

By the way, what is you postion on girls in the BSA? Not female leaders, minds you.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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But discrimination is discrimination regardless of what you are discriminationg against.

 

This is called "equivocation"; it's a logical fallacy. HUD grants can discriminate on the basis of many things, such as economic status (many grants are for poor people); HUD grants cannot be used to discriminate on the basis of religion.

 

You're trying to dismiss the whole issue by pretending all discrimination is the same; using your "logic", it would be OK if HUD grants could only be used by white people, since HUD discriminates on the basis of economic status, and that's just more discrimination, and all discrimination is interchangable.

 

And in the BSA's case, the Supreme Court agreed with the BSA so that makes it legal!

 

You sure can't follow a conversation, can you? The BSA can't use a government HUD grant to practice discrimination. That's got nothing to do with the BSA's right as a private organization.

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Merlyn, I questioned if you thought the level of anger with which you represent your beliefs might be a factor in your fitness to lead children.

 

If you are displeased with my definition of "analogy" please blame Merriam-Webster.

 

The BSA does not base membership on religion, but on ones ability to fulfill the mission of the program.

 

You cannot be a lifeguard if you do not believe in swimming. You cannot be reverent and perform your Duty to God if you do not believe in a God. (thats another simile)

 

So you see it's not so much that the BSA refuses atheists, it's really more that athiests have refused the ideals of scouting.

 

A practicing Catholic cannot be a Jewish Rabbi. Does that give him cause to hate Jews or to be hated by them. Of course not. The Jewish faith requires that to be a member or a leader in the faith you must share their belief system. That makes perfect sense to me. If the Catholic sues the synagogue should he expect to win? Of course not. (That by the way that was an analogy to the relationship between scouting and atheists.)

 

"The atheists are for the most part imprudent and misguided scholars who reason badly who, not being able to understand the Creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis the eternity of things and of inevitability....."

Voltaire

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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So you see it's not so much that the BSA refuses athiests, it's really more that athiests have refused the ideals of scouting.

 

This is the same rationale that Restricted clubs used to exclude Jews.

 

A practicing Catholic cannot be a Jewish Rabbi. Does that give him casue to hate Jews or to be hated by them. Of course not. The Jewish faith requires that to be a member or a leader in the faith you must share their belief system. That makes perfect sense to me. If the Catholic sues the synagogue should he expect to win? Of course not. (That by the way that was an analogy to the relationship between scouting and athiests.)

 

Do you think a Catholic would be justified in stopping a public school from running a basketball team that only allows Jews, or allows everyone except Catholics to join?

 

Do you think a Catholic would be justified in stopping a synagog from using a HUD grant to increase their (Jewish only) membership, even though the HUD grant requires nondiscrimination, and the synagog signed an agreement stating it would not discriminate?

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Let's wait and see if the courts agree.

 

Do I think the Catholic church would stop a Jewish synagogue from using a HUD grant? No, I don't think they would. Nor do I think they would sposor an ACLU suit against them or get on a Jewish bulletin board and denounce their activities. But hey!, that's Catholics for you.

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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You don't seem to be able to follow a conversation. Remember my earlier answer?

 

Because HUD grants prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion & creed; some single-sex programs ARE allowed under certain circumstances, which is also why public schools can have boys & girls basketball teams, but can't have a basketball team that excludes atheists or Jews.

 

Now you're just trying to equivocate on the term "discrimination"; yes, the Boy Scouts discriminate on the basis of sex. The government *can* discriminate on the basis of sex in certain circumstances; they *can't* discriminate on the basis of religion or creed.

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Is it being too simplistic to say that the BSA does not descrimnate based on religion, they don't have any care what religion you are, they just require a belif in God?

 

That isn't religious descrimination in my book. They aren't descriminating against anyone belonging to a specific religion.

 

If you want to say they descriminate against atheists, well that's another discussion. Athiesms isn't a religion. The BSA does not practice religious descrimination.

 

Mark

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