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Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA


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Which Values?

 

That they try to teach a value system based of the teachings of the Bible? Since I joined my church's scout troop.

 

That they teach people to distance one self from and hate people who do not hold the same religous views as themselves?

About the time this tread started.

 

But since hate is not a value i have been ignoring your question(This message has been edited by DeLukas)

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That they teach people to distance one self from and hate people who do not hold the same religous views as themselves?

 

Give me a break! This barely warrants a response. As misguided as BSA believes these people to be, they don't teach the boys to hate them. Having just completely finished the program as a scout I know plenty of great boys my age and older. I don't know a single one of them that now has hatred towards Atheist or even gays.

 

(This message has been edited by YoungBlood)

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DeLukas:

 

That they teach people to distance one self from and hate people who do not hold the same religous views as themselves?

About the time this tread started.

 

But since hate is not a value i have been ignoring your question

 

You also ignore my answer in the earlier post that you reference.

 

Merlyn_LeRoy's original post: "'Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground.'" [reputed quote from Glen Schmidt]

 

and:

 

"Nothing to say about Glen Schmidt's obvious bigotry?"

 

Which my reply was:

 

"I can't verify the accuracy of the original quote, but I can comment: no, I do not agree with the original statement and characterization of atheists."

 

I repeat these things because of your portrayal of me as being hateful.

 

You know, DeLukas, it is easy to caricature people, to call them names like fascists and people haters, especially if you don't agree with them. I do not hate anyone, despite your opinion.

 

I do believe I have freedom of religion and freedom to associate with whom I please. I practice this at church (both freedoms) and with friends, as I am sure you do. My son would be in a Christian-oriented troop (though, as I am sure others would point out, that I/we could not prevent a boy of a different belief from joining). Problem is, based on past rulings and practices, when an atheist is part of the group, you can't do or practice anything that smacks of religion-- even a moment of silence is offensive.

 

Now realize, atheists won the earlier argument because the atheist student was compelled to attend public school classes and was, therefore, compelled to participate in a religious practice. That is not the case here. They insist on joining and being part of Scouts because it's a good program and (they assert) there are no equivalent alternatives. Nothing is preventing these folks from starting their own organization, but this means work on their part to do it. Is it just that they do not want to do the work? I wouldn't think so; I'm sure there are lots of hard working atheists with good organization skills. So, what is the point? Fifteen minutes of fame? To be the next Madalyn Murry O'Hair?

 

Say if the Boy Scouts are compelled to allow atheists to join. What other groups now practicing free association and assembly must then permit atheists to join? Is insisting on joining a church the next objective? Then, when that is accomplished, no prayers, etc. are to be allowed because that would be offensive? This sounds absurd at this time, but I doubt that the reasonable people of that time who agreed with the earlier ruling would have imagined what has happened since. The presence of atheists ensure that ALL people of ALL faiths must comply with their wishes.

 

(This message has been edited by Compass)

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I find it interesting that with all the comments on "hate", the only post that applies that term to another human is a defender of the atheist.

 

Merlyn

When I read that quote about the atheist and the wallet I shuddered, thinking, well that didn't do anybody any good. I thought about posting a disclaimer that not all scouters think that way, at least I dont, but then I thought the comment was so far over the top, a disclaimer was not necessary, I was wrong. I apologize for not responding sooner.

 

I understand you dont think public money should be spent to support the discriminatory polcies of the BSA. I dont know how many scouters you actually know, but from reading the postings on this forum you will find adults of all ages, from all over the country who participate in the BSA. We come from all demographics (as far as I can discern) and creeds (no, we are not all Christians and BSA doesnt teach the values of the bible). A common thread we all do have is voluntering our time to take "the kids" camping, hiking, fishing, white water rafting, etc. We take our scouts to Philmont, The Boundary Waters and Sea Base, we take them along the Applachian Trail, we show them the outdoors and try to teach leadership and self-confidence. Do you really think this is all a conspiracy to teach discrmination?

 

 

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Acco40,

 

I believe Merlyn's position is that you can't have it both ways. You can't claim the BSA is a private organization and can set its own membership rules AND receive government support

 

As Bob has noted already, that's a false premise. Hundreds of private organizations receive support from the government. Do you consider Planned Parenthood to be a public organization?

 

Rooster, if Merlyn thinks he is right, he has every right to post. The fact that the majority feel one way or the other does not matter.

 

I never said he didn't have a right to post here. I questioned his motives. This seems to be a pointless exercise. It particularly seems pointless for Merlyn since he's not changing the opinion of anyone on this board.

 

kwc57,

 

Let's be honest and clear here. This statement was an opinion made by one Scouter to another during a training course. People need to quit giving the impression that this is an official policy from BSA headquarters.

 

Excellent point. Furthermore, "high ranking" or not, the ramblings of one person does not define an organization like BSA. If this quote can be attributed to Mr. Schmidt, then I agree that it is at best, unfair. At worst, it is bigoted. Yet, if true, beyond criticizing this man personally, there's not much one can or should say. You can stomp your feet and point out the man's flawed character. But to accuse BSA of promoting his views, is just as unfair and/or bigoted.

 

DeLukas,

 

Who in this thread indicated that we should hate anyone? That accusation seems to be out of left field. I can reject people's beliefsin fact I can reject the company of other people, without hating them. When a Christian church teaches that it is a sin to ignore God, is that preaching hate? If a pastor points to Bible verses, which condemns atheists and homosexuals, is that preaching hate? God passes judgment not man. Now, you may not like the idea that God passes judgment, but that does not make Him any less real or righteous. Some people think love and righteousness (or God's wrath) are mutually exclusive concepts. I beg to differ. God is righteous. We need to approach Him as the Holy God that He is. But He is love as well. That love (personified by Christ's sacrifice on the cross) enables us to approach Him despite our sin. When one is on his deathbed, there will be no more intellectual debates. There will be no one to impress with our quick wit or finely tuned rebuttals. There will only be truth. We will all know that truth eventually. Unfortunately, we will not be able to go back change anything. Now is the time to think about that day. Now is the time to think about whether or not we want to know and serve God. Merlyn, apparently has made up his mind. I pray you don't following his path.

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DeLukas,

 

Your church has the right to teach any religious beliefs it chooses. It also has the right to teach those beliefs in its scout units because it owns them. You have the right to participate or not participate in your church's activities, including scouting. Please don't excoriate scouting because you disagree with a teaching of your church.

 

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compass writes:

>Nothing is preventing these folks [atheists] from starting their own organization.

 

True, however it couldn't be part of WOSM, since WOSM only allows one group per country and the BSA is keeping atheists out. An atheist can be a scout in other countries, but if they move to the US they can't join the BSA.

 

There are similar groups that don't discriminate, like Campfire boys & girls.

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Thank you, YoungBlood, for joining us. You, being young and a recent graduate of the program can offer a counterpoint to those that are of similar background but assert a different viewpoint from you.

 

Don't be too troubled by what you read at this late point. When people run out of points to make and defensive tactics aren't especially effective, then name calling becomes the order of the day.

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I talked with some friends and family who are volunteers in the Chicago area. I'm told that all but a few of those units remain in existence either with new charter partners or as Learning for Life units. Chicago Area Council has had a decrease in membership in the last 5 years that the volunteers see as a retention problem not one of lack of chartering organizations. As with many types of council, they are looking to improve the crossover ratio from Cubs to Boy Scouts and to strengthen the Venturing program to retain older scouts.

 

But no one is having a hard time finding a unit near their home to participate in.

 

The threat of lost Chartering Organizations just hasn't happened. It's a device that groups and individuals use as fear mongering. Kids and parents join scouting largely for the activities and character development it offers. Where they scout is more often then not a matter of who asks first, who is more convenient or where a friend already goes. I really do not see a situation when we will run out of Chartering organizations that support and share the same values that are supported by the scouting program.

 

The Chicken Little strategy of "you'll lose money, you lose chartering organizations, you'll lose all your members" just has not been borne out in all the years that people have prophesized it.

 

It is a hollow thread from desperate voices.

 

Bob White

 

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Nothing is preventing these folks from starting their own organization, but this means work on their part to do it.Except, of course, a congressionally issued charter, federal and judicial protection and exclusive right to operate any program based on or closely resembling B-P's game of Scouting within the United States. You see, many people have tried to start other Scouting programs in the United States, dating as far back as 1910 when the BSA was being founded. That's why the BSA got the Congressional Charter in the first place... to eliminate any competitive organizations and get exclusive rights to be the "boy scouts" in this country. Add that to the fact that the vast majority of members of this board advocating any "change" in current BSA policy (on any issue) are long time Scouts and Scout leaders who have invested much of their lives into THIS organization, and perhaps you can see why it's not just as simple as "go start your own organization"?

 

At want point did BSA choose to define itself as a "faith-based organization", which now seems to be the primary way some are choosing to define us? It certainly was not defined as such in the Congressional Charter. Nor was it defined as such by B-P or any of the founders. In fact, I'm not sure I can find any use of such a definition in any of the Scouting handbooks in my library (which includes every edition, or course ;-)). Of course, a Scout's Duty to God has always been a principle, and I personally support the concept that a faith in God is an important aspect of a good person. But contrary to popular opinion that the BSA is under assault from the left and being drug in that direction, I tend to believe that the a small but powerful faction of the Christian majority is dragging our organization in their direction, to a place we have never been... being defined primarily as a "faith-based organization".(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

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Merlyn_LeRoy writes:

 

compass writes:

>Nothing is preventing these folks [atheists] from starting their own organization.

 

True, however it couldn't be part of WOSM, since WOSM only allows one group per country and the BSA is keeping atheists out. An atheist can be a scout in other countries, but if they move to the US they can't join the BSA.

 

There are similar groups that don't discriminate, like Campfire boys & girls.

 

Scouting isn't everything nor the only thing. The world doesn't revolve around Scouting, nor is joining a requirement. Just as you point out, Campfire boys and girls are similar, and perhaps a suitable alternative.

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Might it be that there just wouldn't be enough atheist kids to make a patrol let alone a troop in each town?

 

Now about this quote: Merlyn, why would that statement bother you so? Some may be honest but they certainly have no compelling reason to be or for dishonesty to be considered wrong....you shouldn't try to place your values on them. Maybe it would be a badge of honor to some atheists to be considered less than honest...how dare you decide for them?

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bob white:

>The threat of lost Chartering Organizations just hasn't happened. It's a device that groups and individuals use as fear mongering.

 

The ACLU suit hasn't played out yet.

 

You don't seem to argue consistently -- first, you seemed to argue that charters to government agencies were legal, then you said you didn't know of any public schools chartering BSA units, and now you're saying losing government chartered units (presumably some exist and will be revoked due to lawsuits) isn't be a problem. What are you arguing?

 

...

>I really do not see a situation when we will run out of Chartering organizations that support and share the same values that are supported by the scouting program.

 

Glen Schmidt is really helping you there, isn't he?

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Merlyn_LeRoy,

 

Please provide a link to verify that the comment came from Schmidt. I've read every available news story I can find on the internet and even saw the kid of O'Reilly last night. I've never seen this comment in any news story and can't find it using any search engines. The only reference I've found is that their was a difference of opinion between the kid and another "scout leader" during a training class. All of the stories I have found have been consistent on this point. Even if Schmidt did make the comment, it is still his personal opinion and not an official BSA policy. If a high ranking Boy Scout official decided to wear blue shoulder loops like a Cub Master, that wouldn't mean it is official dress code for Boy Scout leaders. It would be a personal preference and it would be wrong. But you can't take the BSA to task over it, just the person who did/said it.

 

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