Buddy System Q and other advice PLEASE!

[concernedparent 10]

How would you address this? We just got back from camp -- and boy am I exhausted... I have a Tiger who is extremely active and at times gets a little aggressive. I've spoken to him many times in front of his mom about his actions. He tells mom to shut up, go away, etc. Today, when a leader approached him about talking during the opening ceremony he almost hit the leader in the face with his hand.

 

Mom wants him to have friends and was focusing in on the fact that the buddy system wasn't working and he wasn't being "included." Mom stormed off several times and took off in her car... She has told me that we are the worst pack she has ever been with and she has NEVER seen a pack run like this before -- that we are unorganized and the children are not supervised adequately. All activities at the camp were supervised by adults. However, during the downtime the parents were responsible to watch over their children. All of the other children were getting along together and playing except, of course, for this one child...

 

She also claimed that we had poor communication... ok - so I have to laugh at this because there have been many emails about this camp.. but she has ADMITTEDLY not read through them -- she asked my husband to please send her a summary... so he just cut and pasted the body of the email that listed all of the details..

 

There was an incident at the pool where she told me that three people had to pull him out of the pool because he was being "run over" by other boys. I found out later that one of the parents who was in the pool had to have his knee up so that this boy could stand on it. Also - I found out that this boy refused to hang onto the side -- so when the parent moved his leg the boy would just go down and the parent would have to pull him up.. Anyway after she pulled him out she stormed back to her tent (that we (I) loaned her) and said that she was going to file a formal complaint with council and that she was leaving. One of the leaders in charge followed her to make sure she was ok and came to get me. I then spoke to her and told her that she was welcome to file a complaint and asked her if she was leaving. She then said - oh - now you want me to leave? ack! Anyway, she said that her son wasn't being "included" in things and that the buddy system wasn't working... and "how do you think this makes him feel?" -- she was almost in tears.

 

I did find out that MY son had an incident with this child as well, where they were playing and the boy grabbed two other boy's wrists and wouldn't let them go. His mom had to pull him off of them. Additionaly, there was another time when he pushed my son and another parent held my son and had to pry the other boy's hands from my son -- she explained it as this - he had a "death grip" on your son..

 

I spent most of my day yesterday talking to the other parents to find out what was happening -- not only once, not twice but atleast 3 times. I finally had to ask them to document what they had witnessed. I also asked mom if she could document things - but she said no, not right now... (by that time I was so tired...) - and she went on to tell me - see - look - the other two boys (other two tigers) are playing with each other and my son is here. I told her, no, the two boys are playing with the other boys and you are choosing to play with your son here.

 

So anyway I can't find anything on what I can do about the buddy system... I certainly don't want to have to force another boy to be his buddy knowing that the other boy might get hurt... and, on the other hand, if I do pair him up with someone and they stay away from him because of how he is then that negates the purpose of the buddy system -

 

Now my other leaders are telling me that they don't want to head up any activity because they are feeling badly about not being able to give him the one on one attention that he requires.

 

My Committee Chairperson is also unwilling to step up right now - so I'll be bringing this to the committee meeting this week...

 

k - so much more but I won't go on!

 

Anyone have an suggestions???????

 

Thanks!

[shortridge 184]

The buddy system, and Cub Scouting in general, is not a means to provide instant pals. That comes through friendship and sharing activities in common. If this boy's behavior is way out of line - it sounds like his mom can't even control him? and she may have some emotional control issues herself? - then the other boys aren't going to choose to play with him. You can't force them to do so. This parent needs to have that explained to her.

 

Buddies don't have to be glued at the hip or do everything together. The buddy system is mainly a means to keep track of your kids - if you do a buddy check and you have an odd number, you know instantly someone's missing - and so that if they need to go someplace away from the group (camp trading post, bathroom, etc.), there are two of them in case one gets hurt.

 

Besides, at the Tiger level, the boy already has a buddy - his adult partner.

[Stosh 3452]

As far as I can tell, the Buddy System is not a social networking concept, it's a safety concept. Two boys watching out for each other does not mean they are friends, nor going to be friends any time soon. I have had two boys that were of different ages, different backgrounds, different ranks, one had special needs and the other far mature for his age. Were they friends? No, but the older boy made sure the younger boy got to his medications on time, to his merit badge classes, and was taken to all other activities for a week at camp. Did they ever become friends? I doubt it, but the older boy was 100% Scout (eventually Eagled) and knew what the Buddy System was inside and out.

 

I'm thinking this mother is trying to make up for poor, if not anti-social behavior for her son thinking the Buddy System was a cure-all for all her problems with him. From the brief explanation, I'm thinking this young man is going to need more than just Scouting to get him acclimated to appropriate social behavior in a group setting. With mom running around interfering with everything the boy does isn't going to help.

 

Although it is totally illegal today, back in the day of pre-hysteria, peers would have set this boy straight and it would have been handled without adults threatening lawsuits, complaint letters, etc. Over the years, my buddies adjusted my attitude a few times and it got me a lot more friends in the long run. I even remember that I had a knock-down dragged out fist fight in the back yard of the Den Mother's house with a boy that became my best friend in high school. I'm not advocating it for today's youth, but it does have a history of effectiveness for working out social problems amongst boys. A watchful eye from afar is sometimes okay. The mom is going to have to figure this out if her boy is ever going to have a chance.

 

Stosh

 

Stosh

[shortridge 184]

Additionally ...

 

Now my other leaders are telling me that they don't want to head up any activity because they are feeling badly about not being able to give him the one on one attention that he requires.

 

It's not the responsibility of your other leaders to give this boy one-on-one attention. As a Tiger, that's the responsibility of his adult partner.

 

Also, after re-reading the original post: Why was the mother not in the swimming pool with her son to provide that "knee"?

 

My Committee Chairperson is also unwilling to step up right now - so I'll be bringing this to the committee meeting this week...

 

IMHO, this isn't a committee issue. This parent doesn't seem to understand the purpose and methods of the Scouting program, let alone her role in it. This can be handled between you, the Tiger DL and the mother, explaining (and probably re-explaining) how Tigers works AND the basic behavioral expectations of the den and the pack.

[Twocubdad 665]

This isn't going to end well. The questions is, how much time and effort are you willing to put into this family between now and then?

 

I see two options:

 

1) Take the mom up on her threat to leave. Don't let the screen door hit them in the butt.

 

2) Sit the mom down and explain to her how the program works and what her responsibilities as a "Tiger Parent" entail. She is responsible for supervising her son ALL THE TIME. Storming off and driving away is not acceptable. Who was watching her son during her tantrums? She needs to be told very explicitly what the expectations are of her. Use short sentences and lots of verbs. I doubt she's still around by the end of the conversation.

 

The issues with the boy are surmountable. You can work with his issues and be a positive influence for the boy. That's what we do and why most of us become Scout leaders. Unfortunately, his mother is going to make that impossible. She will be a black hole of time, effort and volunteers which could be better used delivering solid programming to all the Scouts. From your description, she sounds like she has combined a huge sense of entitlement with bullying. The odds are greatly against her behavior changing significantly.

 

 

[moosetracker 132]

This may be a difference of programs, but in our units the scouts (including problem scouts) are the SM territory. The Adults (including problem parents) are the committee chairs territory.. If you have problem a scout with problem adult(s) the SM & CC tag team it.

 

But the SM has enough with the boys, and usually does not need to deal with the parents also.

 

At least that is how our progam works, concernedParent's unit may work similar.

[AKdenldr 33]

You didn't say, but I imagine that you are the tiger den leader?

 

I'd drop the boy from your den. He could be helped by scouting, but only if you had parents you can work with at home. Bigger issues are afoot here than you can deal with one hour a week.

 

The other boys will suffer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmmm...

 

I come at this from a different direction, eh?

 

I see a parent at wits end, and a family in need.

 

Most packs don't have the resources to do this well, but some COs do. Is there anyone in your pack or Chartered Partner who can approach the parent in a non-threatening way and provide some direction to family counseling? Raising such issues is always fraught with risk, but if the mom is really as on edge as what you've described, she perhaps might be at the point where she might be open to that sort of help.

 

Barring that, at the point when other adults don't want to or don't feel capable of dealing with the lad, and they don't want their own kids around him, I think you have to give serious consideration to illuminating the "Exit" sign.

 

Either way, I really don't like going to a parents' committee with this sort of thing. That can just be a mess. It's the kind of thing that is often best dealt with by a smaller group, like the CM, CC, DL and COR or UC.

 

B

 

Beavah

 

[concernedparent 10]

Thanks for the feedback! I was looking for the proper way to explain things to her without getting her riled up.

 

I will have to let her know that in the future she will have to be in the pool with her son...

 

When this whole issue escalated I called my committee chairperson just to let her know what was going on and I also called my District Executive to let him know... He said to let my committee chairperson know because if he is to be removed from the pack it has to come from the Committee. I can't do it myself as Cubmaster. Additionally I do know this -- I need to be careful with this one because I don't want to have a lawsuit slapped on me...

 

The tiger den leader's son knows this boy so there is history behind all of this as well... Now that you all have provided me wtih great feedback I have some solid ground to work on. I will, tho - have to have a few other leaders with me, as her story(ies) changed every 5 minutes.

 

I really don't have the time to put much more into this. Bottom line for me is that the other two cubs are good boys and their parents are great.

 

And I did tell her that she is more than welcome to find another pack to join, as this may not be a good fit.

 

There are problems with the Scout Master so I really don't want to go there...

 

We are going to go on a hike in a few weeks and I will have to do something by then. I wasn't at the prior hike but I understand that this boy was running ahead of the leader and was told multiple times to stay behind that leader and not run ahead. I was also told that he picked up a rock and threw it towards the group. Thankfully no one was hurt. SO I am having all of this documented so that I have the facts straight..

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

I am with Beav on this one. I also agree that as a Tiger Adult Partner, it is HER job to be "joined at the hip" to her Tiger son. Also, as a parent, it is HER job to - parent.

 

However, you stated that this mother was "almost in tears". This tells me that she is at, or near, the end of her rope, with nowhere that she knows to turn. It also sounds like she was hoping that Scouts would be the magic bullet that would help her, and her son.

 

You also stated - "She has told me that we are the worst pack she has ever been with and she has NEVER seen a pack run like this before."

 

There is more to this story than meets the eye. Why have they been in multiple Packs? Does she have other children? Has this boy been in other Packs as a Tiger?

 

This is something that needs to be discussed CALMLY between the family, the den leader, the Cubmaster, and possibly the Committee Chair. This is NOT something that needs to be brought to a committee meeting - yet.

 

Edited to say that I saw you had posted while I was typing.

 

One thing I am unclear on - what exactly is your position in the Pack?

 

You do not appear to be the Committee Chair, the Cubmaster, or the Tiger den leader. Why is it your concern to document issues/events, and deal with this family?(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[concernedparent 10]

Yes, there is definitely more going on here.

 

We're a small pack and troop so we are set up a little different. We don't have a parents' committee.. Our unit commissioner is 85 years old and it is difficult for him to get things done sometimes...

 

And yes, I am sure that she was hoping that Scouts would be the magic bullet that would help her, and her son.

 

"You also stated - "She has told me that we are the worst pack she has ever been with and she has NEVER seen a pack run like this before." "

 

-- she has older sons that were in scouts - I believe it was about 15+ years ago..

 

We tried to talk to her many times... I do not want to hurt her feelings and would like to help her but I am not a counselor... and I'm trying to figure out how to approach this in the least disruptive but most effective manner -- that's why I'm am making sure that I check with council on this, as she said that she was going to lodge a complaint (Which I encouraged her to do).

 

Sorry - I am currently the Cubmaster.

[The Blancmange 67]

 

She has told me that we are the worst pack she has ever been with and she has NEVER seen a pack run like this before -- that we are unorganized and the children are not supervised adequately. . . . She also claimed that we had poor communication

It seems only natural to question the judgment of someone who takes this view of your unit and yet continues to want her son to be a member. It's not as if this is a public school where attendance is required and she has no other (public) alternatives. It is a volunteer-operated youth organization that depends on support and cooperation from all the families. If I felt that way about a volunteer organization that I had joined, I would leave immediately.

This person has made clear that she expects the unit and its leaders to cater to her without any compromise or constructive support on her part. You can continue to spend time trying to put out the fires that she causes or ask her to leave and spend your time providing a quality program to those who appreciate and enjoy it.

[vogelb 10]

I know that others have stated this but...

 

The answer is simple - as a Tiger the scout has to have a rersponsible adult partner present and invovled at all times.

 

Bueler?

 

Bueler?

 

If mom want's her son to be in scouting, she has to be directly invovled at all times. That is how the Tiger program works.

[Basementdweller 608]

so how many families are you willing to lose because of her?

 

After the last 6 months in scouting my charity is gone. I would simply ask her to take her son and move on. I lost several familys because of a aggressive type A female ACM, she stomped all over parents and volunteers.

 

I will never ever chase one scout, compromise what is right and best for the group for one scout, volunteer or parent ever again.

 

this women is creating a poison environment, people will seek a friendlier Pack to participate in.

 

I say get with the COR and CM and have her thrown out. I just isn't worth it.

[shortridge 184]

A few notes of clarification.

 

He said to let my committee chairperson know because if he is to be removed from the pack it has to come from the Committee. I can't do it myself as Cubmaster. Additionally I do know this -- I need to be careful with this one because I don't want to have a lawsuit slapped on me...

 

Your DE is wrong. The CO can remove the CC, not the committee.

 

And even if you unilaterally tried to remove the CC, you wouldn't get slapped with a lawsuit. Volunteer Scouting isn't like a paid job.

 

We're a small pack and troop so we are set up a little different. We don't have a parents' committee.. Our unit commissioner is 85 years old and it is difficult for him to get things done sometimes...

 

There's no such thing in Scouting as a parent committee. There is such a thing as a pack committee.

 

The unit commissioner is supposed to be a resource and sounding board for units, not a member of the pack leadership.