APL- Not a POR? Why?

[Chippewa29]

At our troop meeting tonight, we were discussing the POR needed for one of our Life Scouts. He is the APL for his patrol and we realized tonight (or I re-realized) that it was not listed among the POR that qualified for Eagle. It seems that this position, if done properly, would have more responsibility than many of the other positions. Does anyone know why the APL position does not qualify for a rank POR?

[BDPT00]

Sure. Because one could hold that position for 6 months, and never do a single thing. APLs need not attend PLCs. If the PL is active, they never need to lead. For many, it's a non-job, and certainly not what an Eagle application should have on it.

Are there exceptions? Of course. One in a thousand? Maybe. Probably not.

BDPT00

 

 

[NealOnWheels]

What I have been told on several occasions it is because an Assistant Patrol Leader does not have any responsibility to the troop. It is a patrol responsibility only.

 

I am not sure I agree with that argument.

 

I have never found this explanation in any scouting literature.

[Chippewa29]

My opinion has always been that if there aren't responsibilities for a certain position, then you either create responsibilities or you don't fill the position. My troop had not had any APL for over a decade because they weren't really doing anything. Last year, however, we decided to forgo have an SPL/ASPL in favor of having stronger patrol programs. The APL in each of our patrols is responsible for setting up the meeting room and preparing activities at each troop meeting. To me, that is more of a POR than a Chaplain' Aide who helps out with the Scout's Own Service at the campout once a month. Again, I don't see why the BSA would have this position (patch and all) if they didn't intend for it to be used for advancement.

[UCEagle72]

"Again, I don't see why the BSA would have this position (patch and all) if they didn't intend for it to be used for advancement."

 

Because the position goes back to the days of the real Patrol Method (when Patrols hiked and camped on their own). If you read the "Handbook for Patrol Leaders" (published 1929-1967) then you will see that there is a section on the Patrol Organization, and the APL has two pages worth of material.

 

The Leadership requirements were added with the 7th Edition of the Handbook (1965-1972) - and they were limited to "Troop Warrant Officers" (PL, SPL, ASPL, JASM, Instructor, Scribe, QM, Librarian, Den Chief) -- and yes, I can remember when I held many of those positions, I received an actual "warrant" to carry out my duties.

 

Now, if you say that a young man is fulfilling a currently eligible POR, but not really doing his duties, then that is an issue for the SM to address during his SMC.

 

And finally, a young man knows what positions will qualify for the Leadership requirements (or the need for a leadership project) -- let him do what is necessary to fulfill one of those positions. He is the one working on advancement, and should be aware of the requirements!

 

[kbandit]

Chippewa29 we utilize out Chaplian Aid every week to give a closing prayer to signal the end of the meeting. It works out very well and gives them more to do for their position. If the Chaplain Aid is absent we never have a shortage of scouts wanting to do the prayer.

[raisinemright]

I agree with you. My son has been in some elected or appointed leadership since he began scouts. He tied for PL a couple years ago so they decided to split the job in six month segments. He took APL for the first six months. The other scout immediately disappeared for several months for basketball leaving my son to run the patrol. (He knew he was leaving for BBall, why run?)

 

Four months in, we realized that APL doesn't count so his Star rank was delayed for over six months. He's young enough so it didn't affect him and he made Life in the minimum time required.

 

Seems that APL should either not be a position, or should have defined responsibilities and count for POR.

 

LNT Trainer counts for giving a short class.

Bugler counts.

 

[boomerscout]

"Four months in, we realized that APL doesn't count so his Star rank was delayed for over six months"

That was terrible! Of course, APLs need to be active in leadership, rather than just wear the stripe.

What could have been done: 5.While a First Class Scout, serve actively for 4 months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership position to help the troop):

When there just aren't enough PORs to go around, our SM creates them out of APLs. For instance we frequently have a troop treasurer to assist the Scribe, other APLs can be put in charge of plan/conduct troop wide games for 4 months, etc.

The APLs in such leadership positions are still APLs. Ours attend PLC; the newer ones attend as observers

[boomerscout]

I should have added that the advancement committee, as well as the Scout's own PL and the Scout himself. needs to be aware of which boy needs a POR and when

[moosetracker]

I always felt sorry for the APL whose PL was not doing his job. They ended up either doing the PL position due to a majorly absent PL, or had the more difficult job of mopping up after a PL that wasn't qualified to be in that position. And for no credit, so they may also be holding down another troop job to fullfill their own POR..

 

Should the SM step up to fix this, by speaking to the PL about if he has decided to drop the program, or why did he run when he knew he would be out half the time for some sport activity.. Or help with guiding the PL so he can preform the job better??? Yes, but there's another issue.

[gcnphkr]

"LNT Trainer counts for giving a short class."

 

Hardly. They need to take a two day course to begin with, which requires that they be at least 14. http://www.lnt.org/training/PDFs/BSA%20LNT%20Trainer%20Course%20Manual%20F2010-02-21.pdf

 

Then they should be doing ongoing LNT training in the troop.

See this for details

http://www.jayhawkcouncil.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=99

 

[Eagle92]

Jet,

While the LNT Trainer is a minimum of 14yos, when I did a sample of LNT Trainer courses listed on the LNT website, you either A) had to be 18 to take the course from that instructor or B) be a college student. Don't know too many 14yo College students.

[shortridge]

It's difficult enough to find a course even for adults. It took me more than a year to find a Trainer course locally. The state advocate was no help whatsoever.

 

Supposedly each council is supposed to have a LNT liaison to help coordinate courses, but I haven't seen anything on that in my area.

[Mike F]

APL is simply a learning/growing position. An opportunity for young scout to begin to step up and to be recognized by his fellow scouts as a future candidate for PL or other Staff position.

It's not all about speed to rank -- it's about growing young men.

[UCEagle72]

"It's not all about speed to rank -- it's about growing young men."

 

A-men!