BSA Uniform and advancement policy (copy and paste)

[Scoutfish]

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/01.aspx

 

 

Official Policy

 

The Boy Scouts of America has always been a uniformed body. Its uniforms help to create a sense of belonging. They symbolize character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Wearing a uniform gives youth and adult members a sense of identification and commitment.

 

Personal equality. The uniform represents a democratic idea of equality; bringing people of different racial, economic, religious, national, ethnic, political, and geographical backgrounds together in the Scouting tradition.

 

Identification. The uniform identifies youth and adult members of the Boy Scouts of America, visible as a force for good in the community. When properly and smartly worn, the uniform can build good unit spirit. When worn on the correct occasions, it can attract new members.

 

Achievement. The uniform shows the wearer's activity, responsibility, and achievement. What each youth or adult member has accomplished with program opportunities can be recognized by the insignia worn on the uniform.

 

Personal commitment. The uniform is a constant reminder to all Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and adults of their commitment to the ideals and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America. The uniform encourages them to take Scouting seriously because of the investment in uniforms by parents of youths and by adults. The uniform is a way of making visible members' commitment to a belief in God, loyalty to country, and helping others at all times.

 

The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

 

The Rules and Regulations and policy. The following pages contain our uniform policy as taken from the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. The chapters contain applications of the regulations to each program area. Neither the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, the policy, nor the program applications may be added to or changed in any way unless approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America through its Program Group Committee.

 

 

Now, I do not claim to have intimate knowledge of, nor a working relationship with BOY Scout policy. But I know how to read!

 

I also know that if you were to get out 5 different current books and manuals and open them to related subject pages..they all might say , or at least word differently - BSA's policy on many different things.

 

But looking at the above rules, and reading what each one says about BSA and uniforms - I'm not so sure that requiring a scout to wear a uniform for a EBOR, BOR or ANY Scouting function is actually an ADDED requirement.

 

Looking at different rules listed above, specifically:

 

"AHIEVEMENT: The uniform shows the wearer's activity, responsibility, and achievement."

 

"PERSOAL COMMITMENT: The uniform is a constant reminder to all Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and adults of their commitment to the ideals and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America. "

 

So I can see wearing one's uniform as a sign of commitments and living the ideals of scouting, or other wise living in the Spirit of Scouting- which is a staple and requirement of being a scout and advancing.

 

*******BUT**********

 

"The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions."

 

Is the EBOR or BOR less suitable than any other occasion?

 

So...while I see it within the rights of an EBOR to have a scout wear his uniform as symbol of commitment, maturity and Scout Spirit, and not as an added requirement........

 

I also see that if that same EBOR, BOR , or any body of leadership does not follow the exact same policy expected from or of any scout , they too are not living within the Spirit of Scouting and are not committing to the ideals and purpose of scouting !

 

In other words, if the EBOR doesn't wear the FULL uniform, they have no rights to call out or question a scout on his lack of FULL uniform. To do so will only confirm that leader(s) of being a hippocrit!

 

My opinion on uniforms themself? The uniform is just that. It is not the scout, nor does it reflect the total of a scout. It's just a very small part of a person and who they are.

 

Some of the coolest kindest caring people I know look like hippies and dress like thugs and bikers. But they volunteer and give with their hearts every day.

 

I also see clean cut, shaven, well dressed people steal, murder and defraud others all the time too.

 

How you are dressed isn't the ONLY indicator of what or who you are.

 

While I have always taken pride in wearing every uniform I have owned, is it not possible I put too much emphasis on outward appearances and not my true inner spirit?

 

Could I be the well dressed person who defrauds?

 

Wouldn't it be better to be the dressed like a biker guy who gives with his heart?

 

So, it is my feelings that an EBOR is not out of line by asking a scout to wear his uniform (as long as they follow suit) , but at the same time, I hope they appraise it at no more than 1% of the scouts total personality!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Eagle92]

'Fish,

I agree with you 99.999% on this one. However One caveat with the uniforms and BORs I've seen. At one time, you did not have to be a registered member of the BSA to sit on a BOR. if memory serves at least one member of the BOR had to be a member, but you could have members of the community and other scouts' parents serve on them. So obviously they would not have a uniform.

 

FYI. Also at one time YOUTH served on BORs, I did on several occasions in my role as PL and Leadership Corps member. And yes were were in complete uniform, save the sashes. Yes we required sashes on the "candidate" because #1 the seriousness of the BOR and #2 allowed members to see what he earned and ask questions about his experiences.

[Scoutfish]

I guess BSA doesn't mention anything about that do they? I suppose it's different for non uniformed members. But in that instance, I'd like to think they wouldn't be so braise to mention uniforms, or at the very least wear a somewhat dressy or at least casual/dress shirt and nice slacks. At the least that is,. Preferribly a dress shirt with tie. I wouldn't require a coat no more than I'd require a scout to wear a dress coat.

[trainerlady]

This Is also the post I made on "Once again " thread. It fits here too, so here it is.

 

 

 

The BSA is a uniformed organization! Not sometimes, not when it's convenient, not just from the waist up. Football players wear it all, so do baseball, hockey and soccer players. Ever seen half dressed football player? IF you don't dress you don't play.

 

Let's take it a step further ever seen a half dressed McDonald's employee, a half dressed nurse, firefighter or EMT? IF your job says you wear this, that and the other thing for a uniform you wear it or you're fired. What's wrong with instilling this in our youth? Not every worker that wears a uniform gets it paid for by their employer. Most don't get that luxury/perk.

 

 

Some of my council's poorest units are the most completely dressed units. They might not be the best fitting, newest or spotless uniforms but the kids are in a full uniform at every meeting and every event. They are PROUD to wear the uniform. These are kids that might only eat twice a day thanks to breakfast club and free lunch programs. The unit, the kids and the parents have made a committment to scouting and follow it through as best as possible. The kids get a full uniforms one piece at a time, sometimes paid for with rolled change or from piggy banks cracked open on my store's counter. These kids have NOTHING but they want a full uniform so badly that they save their pennies for it.

 

There are several uniform closets in the council open to all and some for a given units only.

 

There are second hand stores, EBay, Craigslist, etc. If a scout wants it and a unit expects it and it is known then it will happen.

 

A full and complete uniform is not an added requirement for any part of scouting. It's an epectation and should be a given. After all uniforms are one of our methods. If you aren't using this method how many more are you sidestepping, glossing over or forgetting?

 

State the expectations, make them well known, and follow through on the expectations. You will ultimately be a stronger unit and have better members for it.

[OldGreyEagle]

From the BSA concerning the uniform at a Board of Review

 

"The Scout should be neat in appearence and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board."

 

OK, here's the rub that we keep rubbing up against.

 

What is meant by the phrase "Uniform shoud be correct as possible", does this mean that all the badges are sewn on within a 1/16 of an inch to specs? or the BOR can't be held?

 

Does it mean mean the scout may have a shirt, the tenderfoot badge in place and the BOR is for Life? and be wearing jeans?

 

I don't know

 

I do know that none of the Rank Requirements call for the scout to wear a uniform. They have to go on unit outings, they have to light a stove, tie knots, read a compass, do first aid, identify plants, do all the boy scouty things in the book but none of the rank requirements say anything about wearing the uniform.

 

Some troops are big into the uniform method and do it quite well, others not so much and they do well. The methods are the methods but while some strongly pursue Advancements others may pursue Uniforming and another advocate for Patrol Method or combinations, these things are not mutually exclusive

 

Which is correct? I guess it depends, in the time I have been on the forum I think we have so many more issues to spend time on than argue that the methods the troop you serve emphasize (or your troop, depending on your local colloquialism) is the only way to deliver to program and to do otherwise means your a charlatan

 

[evmori]

Someone please show me where it states a Scout or adult volunteer is REQUIRED to own the uniform to be a member of the BSA?

[emb021]

"Someone please show me where it states a Scout or adult volunteer is REQUIRED to own the uniform to be a member of the BSA? "

 

You won't find it.

 

You will find in certain cases that you will be told that wearing the uniform is required for certain events/activities (ex: Jamboree). But your are not required to have one to be a member.

 

 

[evmori]

"Someone please show me where it states a Scout or adult volunteer is REQUIRED to own the uniform to be a member of the BSA? "

 

You won't find it.

 

You will find in certain cases that you will be told that wearing the uniform is required for certain events/activities (ex: Jamboree). But your are not required to have one to be a member.

 

Until the uniform is required, requiring a Scout to wear one for any BOR is adding to the requirements.

[Beavah]

Yah, yeh know... I always wonder why people feel it's necessary to quote books at others. We have the books or the internet too, eh? Now we're tryin' to figure out how to use 'em to help kids, and for that we turn to each other.

 

Different documents are written for different audiences. Da "Official Policy" thing that Scoutfish quotes from the Insignia guide isn't a policy at all, eh? It's a philosophy statement in a guidebook.

 

Da Rules and Regulations are of course policy, but the R&R are written primarily to protect the BSA's licenses and trademarks. They are a corporate document, not a program document.

 

If the Insignia Guide philosophy works for your unit, then have at it. If it doesn't, then yeh do somethin' different.

 

I personally think the Insignia Guide piece is mostly a PR work of fiction. Whether the uniform can "attract new members" or not is not a question of philosophy or policy, it's a testable thing. By and large, I don't think da uniform attracts new members. Same with whether it is "visible as a force of good in the community". Just depends on which community.

 

I honestly don't believe for a minute that more than 20% of that statement is true for kids. It's somethin' that adults like to wish was true, but they haven't actually talked to the boys.

 

And I like uniforms, eh? But we have to be honest about it. They're an adult thing, and they really don't accomplish most of what we claim.

 

We have units in poor areas where da uniform cost is too high; we have units in immigrant areas where uniforming is associated with bad things; we have units where uniforming is less valued and they'd rather families spend the money on a good sleeping bag to go camping with. Some lads just don't like the thing, and a wise SM will try to keep the lad and use the other methods to teach character rather than losin' the boy.

 

Uniforming is just a Method, eh? Yeh use it to help achieve the Aims where it works; it's not an Aim itself. And it's a different method than advancement. There is no advancement requirement to own or wear a uniform in Boy Scouting the way there is in Sea Scouting. And so yeh really can't add it as an advancement requirement if you're playin' by Hoyle.

 

So if yeh want to be strictly uniformed for advancement, start a Sea Scout Ship!

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[NJCubScouter]

I think when the BSA says "uniform should be as correct as possible" at a BOR, number one, they are implying that the uniform should be worn, and number two, they are leaving up to the common sense of the BOR members whether the Scout has made sufficient effort to wear the uniform correctly, under the circumstances (and the circumstances may include the Scout's own circumstances.)

 

If I am chairing a BOR, I would start with this: If the Scout is not wearing a uniform, AND HE OWNS ONE, I want to know why he isn't wearing it. I might say, "I see you aren't wearing your uniform, would you like us to reschedule it for a day when you are wearing it?" (I can tell you that the people who actually do chair BOR's in "our" troop would simply tell the Scout that the BOR will be rescheduled and that he needs to be wearing the uniform.) But either way, I think it's fair and reasonable to require that a Scout who owns a uniform have it on for a BOR. Now, for those who don't own one... it's sort of moot in our troop as there are so many opportunities to own a uniform without paying full price, or any price at all in some cases. We have a uniform closet, with a somewhat erratic selection that mostly favors the lower sizes, but you never know what is going to walk in the door. In cases of true financial need, if there was nothing suitable in the closet, we have ways of getting a Scout a uniform if necessary. There are a couple of benefactors who would not think twice about writing a check for a full uniform if told there was a need (though if it was an older Scout they would probably want to know if the Scout has a job and can contribute something, on the principle of do-your-best.) As far as I know, there are no Scouts in our troop who do not have a uniform, except in those cases where the uniform is outgrown and the family hasn't gotten around to buying (or finding) a new (or used) one yet.

 

If, hypothetically, there was a Scout who did not and could not have a uniform, it would not be reasonable to deny him rank advancement on the grounds of not having a uniform.

 

The other issue is, the Scout has the uniform on, but he doesn't have a sash. I say, so what? In our troop the sash is really optional. Even at the district level, I do not think an Eagle candidate would be turned away for no sash. As for patches, so there's an extra temporary patch or an optional patch where it's not supposed to be. I wouldn't say anything, and that's assuming I even know that there was something "wrong." (There might be an exception if a Scout is wearing something he really isn't supposed to be, like say a Philmont arrow if he hasn't been there, or just to be ridiculous, Wood Badge beads. Of course, those things can be easily removed.)

 

On the other hand, I think rank and POR patches raise the "as correct as possible" issue. These patches are awarded by the troop, and they should be put on the uniform within a reasonable time. I would actually hope that if a Star Scout is wearing his Tenderfoot patch, or if the SPL is wearing an APL patch when he hasn't been an APL for 2 years, SOMEONE (like the SM at the SM conference) would have already said something before the Scout reaches the BOR. If I am chairing the BOR, I would ask the Scout about it. If he says that nobody has mentioned it to him, I would go on with the BOR and suggest to the Scout that he that he correct the problem as soon as possible and strongly suggest that he wear his current insignia to his next BOR. And then I would have a word with the SM.

[OldGreyEagle]

I saw a few refrences to "sashes", plural, in these discussions, what sash other than a merit badge sash is being talked about?

[Scoutfish]

Beavah..I have to respectfully completely disagree with something you said:

 

>

 

And here's why: I copy and pasted that page, meaning I did not write a single word of it. It clearly states that it is official Policy.

 

Nowhere does it say guidline, or suggestion. It says "Official Policy".

 

So, I'm wondering how can you say that it is a guidline and not POLICY?

 

NOw, the very last part of my post was that I hope uniforms are considered no more than 1% of the total scout. My biggets point was to say the EBOR should follow the same expectations they put on a scout.

 

But back to guidline VS policy. Again, this is copy and paste, Not me typing, mis typing or titling it myself.

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx

 

"Age Guidelines

The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities:

 

Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America."

 

So, again, something is wrong here. I have been told on many occasions (to the point I have passed it along also) that DEN LEVEL CAMPING IS NOT ALLOWED! BECAUSE OF BSA POLICY

 

Yet... BSA has clearly and consicely labeled it as a "guidline". They did, not me.

 

Well, from my position , it looks like people tend to change policy into guidlines, and guidlines into policy depending on wether they agree them or not.

 

 

Another point:

 

 

 

The issue I have right here and right now is this: So I have to follow policy, but only as long as I like it? If I can't seem to make the policy work, I can just do whatever?

 

Now normally, If I was to write a post about any sort of question , such as asking what anybody else did about ..say,, geting enough parents to help with a campout..at least half of the answers will qoute some policy says and some will say " Go get some training, read your books, and also take BALOO. Then somebody will say :"Recruit some parents!" (Like I never thought of that!)" Great, but what about getting parents invoiolved?

 

Now in that specific example, it was mention that I get training, Training in what? BALOO? But what if BALOO policy just doesn't work for me?

 

Well, BALOO is just a guidline right?

 

 

 

 

 

Again, I totaly agree with you on most of the uniform situation and how practicable it is. I'd rather each boy wear something totally different and have fun and learn something than just look good.

 

 

But on everything else..well, I neither agree nor disagree.

 

Actually, I'm just flat out confused. One minute I am told I have to strictly stick to rule # such and such, but in the next post, the older, experienced (read those who know better) Scout leaders say that they won't follow rule # such and so because it doesn't really mean anything.

 

So as person new to scouting, I can just about sum up the biggest problems in scouting at the leadership level and Cub/Boy scout level with rules:

 

Everybody wants rules and policy so everything is clear. They want the rules so they can say :"This is why you have to listen to what I say!" "This is why we are doing, what we are doing, the way we are doing it!"

 

Unless of course..that leader/troop/pack/den/patrol doesn't like the rule. Then the rule doesn't matter, isn't important, or it's just a guidline and not really policy.

 

So as far as I can tell, EBOR can not add any requirements , unless they don't like that rule, in which case, it's really just a guidline. Then they can add all they want as long as it works for them.

 

See what I mean? I'm not calling you out so much as calling out discrepancies across the board.

 

I'm just asking how you can justify calling - what is clearly stated as POLICY and a rule by BSA themselves - only a guidline. Explain it to me.

 

I'm not argueing with you, I'm just looking for an honest answer here.

 

And you know, I might totally agree with you too!.

 

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[CalicoPenn]

Scoutfish,

 

I feel your pain - but I think I can help.

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting is an attempt to provide both guidelines to ensure that Scouts can enjoy age-appropropriate activities with minimal, acceptable risks, and to provide policy on certain activities.

 

In the introduction to the G2SS, it states specifically that Bold Type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies. Anything in bold type is a policy and/or rule - and not a guideline. Anything not in bold type is either introductory material, summary material or a guideline.

 

Under age guidelines, the bullet points related to Cub Scout camping are in bold type (which may be hard to tell in the online version since the BSA is using a gray scale type rather than a big, bold black type). That makes them policies - not just guidelines. If a unit leader is ignoring those, that unit leader should be removed.

 

As for the Insignia Guide. You're correct that it is policy. Beavah is also correct, that it is a philosophical statement. But unlike the G2SS, where a policy is a rule, here the policy is a statement. The statement is that the BSA is a uniformed organizations, and provides reasons as to why. One very important thing missing from the policy is a statement that uniforms are required. When we get to the rules, again there are no rules stating that a unform is required. What the rules do is define what the "official" uniform is, and who decides what the "official" uniform is, and who may wear the "official" uniform. Nowhere does it state that a Scout must wear the "official" uniform. If a Scout Troop is wearing the uniform shirt with blue jeans, under the rules, the Troop isn't wearing the "official" uniform - but that doesn't mean the Troop isn't a Boy Scout Troop and the Scouts aren't Boy Scouts. What's interesting to note (something that occurred to me as I was reviewing that part of the document for the umpteenth time), no where in the uniforming rules does it state that insignia may only be worn on an "official" uniform. Hmmmm.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Cal,

So what you are saying is that a troop can create their own uniform, kinda like Venturing's distinct Idententy dress?

[Scoutfish]

Calico.

Thanks! I get that,

This is my biggest concern here (on this site and in BSA in general)

 

I'm pretty new to this. Actually, I'm not in this...I'm new to CUB Scouts. So I only have my son's Bear cub handbook to go by just like sooooo many new parents.

 

This year, I became an ADL because I happen to volunteer as much time and put in as much effort as many of the DL's do and our pack could stand to use at least 4 more DL's.

 

Anyways, as a new person, I have soooooo many questions about this and that. Questions that the books, trainings and stuff do not cover.

 

So what is probably the best thing to do for information in the "real world" of scouting?

 

Ask experienced and current scout leaders. And by scout leaders , I mean any adult leader position wether CM,SM ADL or ASM.

 

But as I am getting used to this site...I notice something: This SM with 20 years experience is argueing with another SM with 23 years of experience about what a policy (assuming it is a policy and not a guidline) means.

 

So from my standpoint, I can take training in every single class BSA offers, but chances are good, that I might still not know what is Policy, guidline, actual full ruling or just "in the spirit of" .

 

Now imagine a parent who is just a parent. A parent who is not a DL, ADL,SL, SM or COR on a committee. If they are not sure of something, where do they go to for help? Either in here or to their pack/troop leadership.

 

But we already know that there are at least 2 sides ( if not 3 or 4)to almost every rule written. EBOR for example: Is a uniform requirement an added requirement or just expecting a scout to live within the spirit of scouting, which is a requirement if I read it right? I believe that if you follow the core values, you just about have to wear the uniform.

 

So okay, it's really about the indescrepencies, but somewhere,at sometime, we all have to decide which way to lean.

 

As a new person,I might have my CM say lean this way, because the rule means this. So then I go out, and as a DL next year, set up a plan and even go out and buy materials for that plan, only to have the ACM say : "Hey wait a minute there buddy! You are way out of line!"

 

Now again,I'm new so I have not the experience to know who is right. How do I decide which way to go? The descrepancies in the book are no more common than the descrepancies of the experienced leaders who argue with each other!

 

Or do I do like alot of parents and just say forget it! This isn't worth the trouble and drama!

 

Okay, I'm not. I'm already planning the basics of how I will do it, I just have to get my Webelos leader training to see what it is I will be doing the way I'm gonna do it!