BSA Uniform and advancement policy (copy and paste)

[Scoutfish 16]

Beavah, I really not calling you out. I'm just looking for clarification.

 

Show me why you came up with what you did because one day, i might be in your position or in a position where I have to make that judgement myself.

[Eagle92 110]

One of the challenges with national policy and the "uniform question" (for lack of a better term)is that a uniform is not mandatory because they want ALL youth to be able to participate. Further if you look at some of the old literature, you would not be able to purchase a uniform until you became Tenderfoot, if memory serves there was no SCOUT rank/patch, which was when you were invested into a troop.

 

Also scouts were strongly encouraged to EARN the money for their own uniforms. I know that as I bought the items for my uniform as a youth, i felt a lot of pride and took care of the uniform. I knwo that my son also was very proud when he bought his CS uniform, and takes somewhat better care of it than the rest of his clothes.

 

One thing I've noticed in looking at old scouting photos from archives is that while not everyone was fully uniformed, everyone did their best to do so. yep some wore surplus items very simialr to BSA uniforms. But the series of photos that impressed me most were from NARA and were taken at a WWII internment camp. You could see a progression of those scouts in the camp from no uniforms in 42 to some uniforms in the 43-44 period, to everyone marching in uniform around 45.

[BrentAllen 10]

 

 

Haven't been around Cubs lately, eh, Beavah? The new Tigers can't wait to get their new uniform, same with many of the new Wolfs and Bears. Webelos can't wait to get that new green & tan uniform, either. And since Boy Scouts get most of their members from Cub Scouts, I think it is safe to say the uniform does attract new members.

 

 

 

Every time we show up at the church in uniform, we hear lots of comments about how glad they are to see Boy Scout uniforms in the church again. They certainly see us as a "visible as a force of good in the community". When we march in the 4th of July parade, we get lots of positive comments.

[evmori 11]

Yeah Brent the little guys think the Cub uniform is cool at their age and the congregants at church like to see the boys in the uniform. But what about the 13 & 14 & 15 year old guys. Do you think they like to wear it or because of peer pressure, do they shy away from it. And remember, those positive comments are coming mostly from people who are not involved in the BSA.

[evry 10]

"Yeah Brent the little guys think the Cub uniform is cool at their age and the congregants at church like to see the boys in the uniform. But what about the 13 & 14 & 15 year old guys. Do you think they like to wear it or because of peer pressure, do they shy away from it. And remember, those positive comments are coming mostly from people who are not involved in the BSA."

 

Exactly my experience. We as adults may think that the kids like wearing the uniform, but ask any of the older Scouts and you'll hear comments like..."I don't want to be made fun of"...."I don't want my friends to think I'm a nerd"...."it's not cool".

 

 

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

 

Well, that's where we need to step up as leaders and parents!

 

Because that same peer pressure is also saying that your not cool if you don't smoke or drink.

 

Peer pressure says you are not cool if you actually learn in school and make good grades, honor roll, key club, etc..

 

That same peer pressure thinks it's okay to have teen sex and skip school.

 

That same peer pressure is where most kids start smoking pot, huffing butane and doing exstacy at tghese "rave" parties.

 

So the way I see it, at 13,14,and 15 years old, kids are starting their approach to adulthood and hopefully, making good, responsible choices.

 

We as adults and as Scout Leaders need to work with them on taking pride in their uniforms just as much as we work with them on saying no to drugs, abstinance ,and studying their school work!

 

Besides, the same peer pressure that makes fun of the uniform also makes fun of even being a scout. Why not just let all the scouts to drop out?

 

Maybe wearing a uniform isn't taking drugs, but is a beginning to personal responsibilty. Just as you expect your child to dres nice for a wedding or funeral..why not dress for the occasion?

Wearinga pair of jeans does not change how I would feel about the deceased, but there is a certain amount of "proper attire for te occasion" to be observed.

 

And honestly, it's not about the uniform. It's about the solomness of the occasion.

It shows the scout what a big deal these EBOR are. Just as one day, at a job interview, your entire potential career with this company is dependant on the impression you make in those 5 to 10 minutes. And just as how my or your clothing doesn't reflect my or your ability to handle your tasks, it is a big part of every interview.

 

Again though, I would not demand any scout be in uniform if any adult wasn't required to meet that same expectation! If the Adults can wear jeans and polo's, so can the scouts! And I'm talking about adult leaders,Sm's, ASM, etc...not non scouting EBOR members fromthe comminity.

 

 

[BrentAllen 10]

evry,

I don't hear those comments from our Scouts, nor my son. They don't wear them to school, but they do in the Dunwoody 4th of July Parade (one of the biggest in Georgia). They wear them when selling popcorn, in front of the bank or grocery store. They don't hide the fact that they are in Scouts. On the contrary, I hear them bragging to their friends about some of the things we do in the Troop. They post pictures on their Facebook pages of them in uniform, and from on our camping trips. Several of them were posting last night about our caving trip this weekend.

 

Ed, the comment I posted about church was in reference to Beavah's comment - "Same with whether it is "visible as a force of good in the community". I guess I used a little html that made Beavah's comments invisible.

[evmori 11]

Actually, Scoutfish, your take is a little biased based on the group issuing the peer pressure. I would say it's more that the uniform is deemed dorky and uncool.

[CalicoPenn 729]

"So what you are saying is that a troop can create their own uniform, kinda like Venturing's distinct Identity dress?"

 

Hard to say, Eagle92. On the one hand, my answer would be no because unlike Venturing's uniforming options, where there is a recommended uniform but not an official-by-policy uniform which means any Venturing Unit's uniform is, if properly adopted by the Venturing Unit, "official", there is an official-by-policy uniform for Boy Scouts so a Troop can't create their own uniform.

 

On the other hand, my answer is a coy maybe since there doesn't seem to be a policy absolutely prohibiting a Troop from creating a uniform that suits them best - only a policy that states that such a uniform can never be an Official Uniform, and as the BSA is trademarked and registered and all kinds of legal thingies 20 ways to Sunday, such a uniform couldn't be properly refered to as a Boy Scout uniform.

 

I'm guessing that the Boy Scouts of America is relying on the first point of the Scout Law - a Scout is Trustworthy - rather than specifically forbidding the creation of a Troop uniform. I'm guessing they are also being flexible enough not to worry if a Troop decides to allow the wearing of jeans instead of the official Scout Uniform pants and probably won't make a fuss if a Scout calls it his Boy Scout Uniform. The Uniform and Insignia rules, as I read them, seem to be far more concerned about protecting the BSA's copyrights, trademarks, registrations and other legal thingies in the "marketplace" than they are about what and how Boy Scouts are wearing their uniforms and badges.

 

Perhaps the BSA should follow their own example of bold-face in the Insignia Guide those policies that are really rules like they do in the G2SS which might eliminate half of the controversies amongst good folk about uniforms and insignia.

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Scoutfish, I confess I didn't read through all of that, eh?

 

I think if you're lookin' for a one-size-fits-all, perfectly-consistent-across-the-nation Scouting program you're fooling yourself. I doubt that's possible. It's certainly not what the BSA is.

 

The BSA is a provider of materials, eh? And resources, and training. When it comes to unit programs, they don't run anything, and they don't legally or morally have the ability to dictate "policy." Materials within the BSA get generated sorta haphazardly. There's one fellow who solicits some prominent volunteers here and there to write supplementary modules. Documents like G2SS are really a sort of compilation of stuff that appears in a bunch of other places, put together by office workers. Things like the Insignia Guide get put together by small groups of volunteers, and then re-edited by office folks. Major documents like the Handbook get handled differently, with some outside contractors and copy-editors.

 

And nobody, anywhere, is really responsible for continuity editing across different BSA documents. Ain't worth it. Because we know when this stuff gets into the field people are goin' to pick it up and use it in different ways to fit their CO, their unit philosophy, and their kids. In some cases, for a big enough group, we even write special rules and supplementary materials for those units.

 

So if you're thinkin' about this stuff as Holy Writ from the hand of the Omniscient Great Scoutmaster, you're goin' to be disappointed.

 

Instead, you need to think about it as a collection of resources compiled by other good volunteers and a dedicated staff to try to help you run your program. We aren't dictating to you, we're offerin' you services.

 

A lot of stuff that's "BSA Policy" applies only within the BSA Corporation, and not to units. Some things, like "membership policy" (no avowed homosexual adults) applies to those we make registered members. Some stuff that is written like policy, or claims to be policy, really isn't. It's just that da group that compiled the document wanted to make a statement. Some stuff is sorta "practical policy" in that it's a statement about how that office in Irving will handle things (like advancement appeals) if they reach that level. But even that's not a sure thing, because different folks sit on that group each year, so the way they treat individual cases changes over time.

 

All this is just fine, eh? It makes for a great program that can meet the needs of lots of different organizations and kids across the country and around the world. Just don't get too wrapped up in it, eh? It's just children's books for a kids program.

 

So da group that compiled the Insignia Guide made a philosophy statement on uniformin'. If it works for yeh, great. If not, we're certainly not goin' to drop your unit and lose your business. Our business is providing services, regardless of whether you use all of 'em or not.

 

And a real "policy" never makes claims or dictates what people should believe or feel. We Americans don't cotton well to that kind of legislation.

 

Beavah

 

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

Biased on what? Tyhe people who would exert that pressure? It's not about any group, it's about pressure. Peer pressure is everywhere.

But what I'm hearing is that boys will drop out of something they think is cool because people pick on the clothes?

I doubt it, People are picking on that you are a scout.

 

Now, I wouldn't even think to suggest to tell anybody what to do, but if anybody accepts the idea that being pick on for you uniform is why scouts drop out..they are sending the wrong message. And that message is : SCouting is a great organazation. But it's okay to hide it and succumb to what others think instead of taking pride in what you are!"

 

Besides, if the kids who are pressuring you to smoke, do drugs,skip school, go to parties, have sex and what not are not the ones who are picking on your uniform...who is then? The girl scouts? The band club? The A/V club or Chess team? The Key Club or honor Society?

 

I doubt it.

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

Probably means that your World crest should be centered between your pocket and shoulder seam. It should be in line with the center line of your pocket. It means the world crest shouldn't be 1" above the pocket while being 4" below the shoulder seam.But nobody is gonna measure it if looks like it's a 1/4 inch too high/low.

 

It means that your council, veteran and pack numbers should be centered on your sleeve and touching with the council pocket as close as possible to the shoulder seam. But they will not point out if the councl patch is 1/16 on an inch below the shoulder seam.

 

Now, this is my INTERPRETATION of it. Yeah, so as far as I can see, that's all people can do. Everybody lists the exact same written staement, but then uses it to argue their own interpretation of what it means. I might as well jump on that bandwagon too! LOL!

 

I would think Correct as possible means do the best you can to have it correct. This would include having your current POR sewn on, having your current rank sewn on too. It means having the flag on the right(which is right)side of your shirt and your council sewn on the right side (which is left) of your shirt.

 

It means that you don't sew a badge onto your shirt when that badge belongs on a sash instead.

 

It means if you have a shirt from the shirt closet, that you don't wear it with a badge that you have not earned.

 

Not if your World Crest is sewn on and it's 2.457653 degrees out of level.

[John-in-KC 311]

Would a card-carrying member of the Uniform Police care to introduce himself to Scoutfish?

[Beavah 205]

Nah, John-in-KC.

 

Or at least Scoutfish would only be a probationary recruit of da Uniform Police.

 

If he were really qualified he'd know that it's still permissible to sew up to six Merit Badges on the uniform sleeve; they don't have to go on a sash.

 

I think some of that attitude comes out of da sort of Cub Scout parent that builds Pinewood Derby cars "for" his boy, eh? You know, the ones that want to finely parse the rules, carefully measure everything because it's really dad competin' against other dads? Best cars in the world are ones that the boys were really a part of - cars that they talk about and smile about and are off in their measurements because they had trouble holdin' a ruler straight. Best races are the ones where the boys just race and race and keep track if they want to and don't if they don't and try cars backwards and all sorts of stuff, not da ones where dads have built an electronic timer, run one "official" race according to the rules with adult judges and the kids roped off back a ways so they can observe without touchin'.

 

Same with uniforms, eh? Best uniforms are ones the boys really make their own and talk and smile about and sew things on themselves a bit wrong and have the funky upside down patrol patch and the goof insignia. Or the ones that they're willing to wear to school .

 

It's a kids' program. There'll be time for someone to suck the fun out of everything when they're adults.

 

Beavah

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

Gee Beavah, I didn't get the impression that Scoutfish is like the Cub Parent (usually a dad) that is ultra precise with the kids Pinewood Derby car at all - my impression is we've got a fairly new leader just trying to get a handle on what's important, what isn't, what's real policy, what's quasi-policy, what's fake policy, what's guidelines, what's the squishy middle, and is trying to figure out what is important to interpret as musts (such as certain G2SS rules) and what can be interpreted a bit more loosely (such as insignia rules, like those stating where a world crest badge must be placed (loved the bit about the badge being off kilter by a couple of degrees - shows a good sense of humor). Oh, and trying to figure out how so many of the oldsters amongst us (not neccessarily meaning age) can possibly have so many differing interpretations of the same policies and guidelines and how does he (or any other new leader) decide which interpretations have more merit and which are off base.

 

I figured John's comment was meant as a way to reinforce what we've been saying - certainly the majority of the posters on this thread aren't bona fide members of the Uniform Police - and perhaps meeting a bona fide member of the UP would show why none of us are that picky.