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Black and white....with many shades of gray


lrsap

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Please forgive the length of this post.

 

For a while now, I have been a big fan and sometime small contributor to these forums. I enjoy them for great information most of the time, and sometimes for pure entertainment. But I have no doubt that, with the exception of a very few online instigators, everyone contributing is a dedicated scout or scouter, whose main motivation is our youth and providing a good program to help them become better adults.

 

I say this because as a dad and DL of a W2 who will be crossing over in February, the subject of Boy Scout advancement has me very concerned about the next few years of my son's life. He loves Scouting, and I know he will be fine in whatever troop he joins. But when trying to come to a decision about which troop is best for my son, I feel the questions of "How much and where do you camp?"....."What kind of equipment does my son need as a member of your troop?"..."Are you active in OA?" are what we should be asking. But asking a SM their interpretation of what advancement requirements are shouldn't have to be a concern to the parent of a new scout.

 

I'm not saying a parent shouldn't have an idea of what a scout needs to do in order to advance. I'm just saying that a parent shouldn't visit three different troops and get three different answers as to questions such as:

 

"What is the function of a Board of Review?"

"What does 'Active' mean?"

"What is an acceptable Eagle Project?"

"What is Scout Spirit?"

"Why is this good enough for advancement here, but not good enough for the troop down the street? Aren't you all part of BSA?"

 

As I said earlier, almost everyone I have read on these pages has nothing but the best in heart. But also, I have seen different answers to these types of questions from everyone. If some of the best and most dedicated in Scouting can't be in agreement as to the basic requirements and functions of Boy Scout advancement, you have to understand why there is a certain uneasiness in my heart about this next big step of my son's life.

 

At this point, I'm not even sure what I'm asking. It's either one of two things:

 

Can you give me advice on the best way to determine (or the right questions to ask a SM about) a troops advancement policies?

 

or what may not seem reality-based:

 

Should I even have to ask? Shouldn't there be a book of answers to these questions that takes out the need for individual interpretation?

 

Sean

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We're human, and BSA is not a machine stamping out standard replacement parts. Each unit is a franchise. Each franchise, within the limits of standard, has some latitude in how things get done.

 

Frankly, I'd look at the Patrol Method, the Outdoors Method, the Adult Association Method, and the Ideals method. If those are square, advancement is probably in order. If you hear folks describing the troop using B-P's classic "It's a game with a purpose", you're probably ok.

 

If you see MBs being taught at Troop meetings, if you see the Troop going to outings which have MBs tied off to them regularly, if you discover the Troop is doing more than one "merit badge day" a year... advancement probably has some challenges.

 

My thoughts.

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My response to parents when they ask me about advancement in our troop is that our program is not advancement driven, rather advancement comes along as a result of being active in our program. The more a Scout participates in weekly meetings and the patrol activities, attends campouts and does his assigned duties, demonstrates his skills to his patrol leader and gets them signed off, that scout will just naturally advance in good time.

 

Rather than asking the SM, perhaps you first should figure out what kind of advancement opportunities you want for your son. If you are looking for quick advancement, activities regularly planned around merit badges, classroom style meetings, adults setting the agenda, guys earning rank and/or merit badges as a group, a program such as ours would not be a good fit for you.

 

Something I've found that can be a useful indicator of a troop's advancement policy would be to ask how quickly a scout advances to First Class. If new guys in a Troop regularly advance to First Class in a year or less, that would indicate to me an advancement driven troop. Others on the forum will likely disagree. Yes, you'll hear about the First Class First Year thing, but in my experience our guys take about 1.5 to 2 years to First Class, but they sure know their stuff by the time they get there and have had a really good time along the way.

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Knowing what I know now, when visiting a Troop, I would talk more with the Scouts in that unit. I would find a couple of their First Class or Star Scouts and ask a few indirect questions about skills from T-FC. "I was in Scouts as a kid, and I used to could tie all the knots, but can't remember them now. Can you show me how to tie a few? Bowline, sheet bend, etc.?"

 

Also ask how many trips they go on, and which are their favorites. What do they do on those trips. What happens if they don't have enough Scouts in a patrol go - do they combine for ad hoc patrols? How often does that happen?

 

Whatever rank they are, ask their age and how long it took them to reach that rank. What was the toughest requirement of their current rank.

 

Ask what merit badges they have earned, and where they earned them.

 

Put a little thought into it, and you can get a lot of information about the Troop from a short, fun conversation with a few Scouts.

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Back when I was a SM whenever new/prospective parents asked about our advancement program/policies/etc I explained we didn't have one. We discussed the goals (aims) of Scouting and then reviewed the methods (advancement is a method). I let them know about how long the average Scout took to achieve 1st Class, and that Eagle would come only to those who really wanted it and focussed on it for the long haul. In our troop, Eagle was never the goal, but often a result, of the program.

 

Interestingly, our troop always grew. But the parents who let their sons ask me questions and hang out with the Scouts were the ones that stayed. The parents that did all the questions themselves and kept their boy by their side usually left. We once had a Scout and his mother come in for a meeting - they were new in town. The Scout looked magnificent in his uniform and MB sash. He must have had every MB available. As was our custom, the SPL greeted the mom and I greeted the Scout then we intro'd to each other and the SPL invited him to join the meeting. Mom said she was there because she heard from her former SE, in a different state that we were a great troop - I have NO idea how any SE outside of our own Council would have known that - and wanted to know how quickly her son, a Life Scout, would complete his Eagle project and get his badge. I told her I had no idea really,that we would support him in every way possible and as long as he stuck to it could happen. She expressed her surprise that I did not intend to tell him his project and work schedule, explained he was not very motivated and needed structure and a schedule to work from, and asked how I intended to make him finish his project. I called the Scout over, asked what he was thinking about for his project - he said he didn't care, he'd do "whatever I said he had to to get over with". After the Aims vs Methods talk, his momther took the Scout and left, telling me I needed to get my act together.

 

Moral of this story? Know what YOU and more importantly, in my thinking, YOUR SON are looking for in a troop. The shades of gray allow for you to and your family to find the place that's right for you. If you are not comfortable with the organization keep looking.

 

Questons I might ask?

> Who sits on the BofR, can I attend?

> Who signs off the requirements in the book?

> How are Eagle projects selected and approved?

> What happens in a Scoutmaster Conference?

> How often do you test for advancement?

 

Depending on what YOU are looking for, the answers you want to hear will vary. Some of the above would send me running depending on the answers. For example - the mother above was expecting me to assign an Eagle Project to her son. If a troop told me they "tested" for advancement, that would be a red flag and need some clarification - but it might be exactly someone else wants.

 

I wish you luck in finding the ideal (for you) troop. You will probably find a group that fits you both well - but not perfectly. We've had some really great experiences in Scouting - and a couple of bad ones. But the positive so outweighs the negative we barely remember those unless we try really hard!

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Wow, these are all really great answers. I can't add to any of them, but my ego demands that I get my name in here somewhere. (LOL)

 

I think the suggestion that you and your son need to decide what kind of advancement you want will help a lot because each units adults have different motivations for success.

 

If I could ask one question to learn the SM's to get an idea of their motivation, I would ask where they see your son in four years. If they say "a man with better habits of character", then you are likely looking at a more rounded program where advancement is more balanced with the rest of the program. If the answer is "Eagle", well there you go, lots of advancement. I find more that 50% of Scoutmasters don't really have an answer because they haven't thought about their job that way. That's when you go talk to the SPL and a few other scouts. They will be a reflection of the scoutmaster's program.

 

I wish you luck and enjoy the visits, they were always fun for us.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

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I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here ;) Parents should NOT be asking ANY querstions, the PROSPECTIVE BOY SCOUT should be askig the questions of the SPL or his designate, usually a PL.

 

On a reality note, I have the advantage of working with OA and know the challenges and benefits of all the units in my district, save two who do not participate in the OA at all. Some units are advancement oriented, but focus soo muchon it, that it appears once the skill is learned, it is not honed. Another unit is very regimented and is very similar to my old unit to a degree. Another unit has a good program and adult leaders, but b/c they are a relatively new troop, they don't have a cadre of older scouts passingon the knowledge. And I can go on and on.

 

Just find out about the various units, have a discussion with your son, and then let him visit and make his own decision.

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"Why is this good enough for advancement here, but not good enough for the troop down the street? Aren't you all part of BSA?"

 

BSA supplies the program material for individual Chartered Organizations to run the program. Program administrates at the unit level are not required to be certified let alone trained beyond the basics.

 

The program itself is fuzzy on purpose to allow units to emphasis and utilize different aspects of the program.

 

Don't elevate scouting beyond what it is, an extracurricular youth program geared towards the outdoors.

 

 

By the way Irsap, I thought your questions were excellent for evaluating a troop's program.

 

 

Added to soften my tone a bit:

Have your son visit these troops and ask and appraise whether the scouts in the unit are happy and having fun.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

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I've only had one "season" of doing this, but when prospective Scouts would visit our troop, I was the adult who took parents aside to answer their questions about the troop.

 

The question I didn't like, especially knowing the particular dad and Scout, was "how soon can my son earn Eagle?" (it's a long story, but I was getting the impression that they just wanted to "check off the box" and move on to other activities).

 

A question I liked: "do I have to go camping with you?". My answer was a non-committal answer about how it isn't Cub Scouts any more and that it isn't a parent-child program. I also to them that some adults do choose to register as adult leaders with the troop, but nobody is expected to, and we don't push for it.

 

I also got the sense of concern about advancement, and told them (again) that it isn't Cub Scouts, and that advancement is self-directed.

 

I didn't get questions about particulars (and I'm glad I didn't, because our troop is far from perfect -- we're a prototypical "adult-run" program, which is another long story)...but maybe these would be good questions:

 

Can you tell me what your Boards of Review are like?

Can you tell me more about the last few Eagle projects your Eagle Scouts have done?

 

But, I'm also a firm believer that Eagle92 is right -- it should be the Scout's impression that is important, and he's most likely not going to be really inquisitive.

 

My own experience: when I saw a particular troop, I saw a model troop. Scout-run, and new parents were asked to "stay home for a year" so our sons could grow. Later on, I figured out this troop is a "our standards are much higher" when it comes to Eagles, and that sort of thing.

 

My son didn't want to have anything to do with that troop, and in fact refused to visit it. He was more interested in the one troop where he knew someone already (the one we're in now).

 

Guy

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Yah, lrsap, I think what you're seein' is true of every method, eh?

 

If yeh look at da discussions on the uniform method here, you'll find that different units and scouter have a range of different interpretations. Everything from military-precision uniforming 100% of da time to pretty relaxed shirts-only or Class B stuff. If yeh look at da discussions on outdoor method here, you'll find units that car/trailer camp 6-8 months out of the year (shuttin' down in the summer), and troops that never car camp in favor of backpacking, canoeing, cycling and whatnot, even during meetings and more than once a month. When yeh look at da discussions of Patrol Method, you'll find same-age patrols, mixed age patrols, patrols that fairly regularly hike and camp without any adults and patrols that have permanent adult coaches assigned. Same with differences in doin' youth leadership; same with differences in how troops do Adult Association and adult trainin'.

 

No surprise that there are differences in how Advancement Method is used across programs. Da Methods are just tools, eh? What tool yeh use and how yeh use it depends on what job your facin' with a group of boys, and on what your own skill with the tool is and what yeh can afford. Scoutmasters who are young and fit and outdoorsy are goin' to make more use of da outdoors method; Scoutreach units are goin' to struggle with it because of costs.

 

All that variety means that if yeh live in an area with multiple troops, yeh can find one that fits your son's needs best, eh? More outdoors, more youth independence? Super. Just be ready to support that as a parent, because it can be tough! More uniformin', more advancement focus? Super. Same deal - that takes your support as a parent, too.

 

I think da right question for a boy is where does he feel comfortable fittin' in, and seem to "click" socially? That's the biggest thing to make a new scout successful. GKlose and Eagle92 are spot on. Kids adapt to whatever advancement system is in place pretty easily. Da right question for you as parent is whether you can support that troop as an adult, eh? Da worst thing for kids and troops is when a new adult becomes one of those problem parents who wants to change everything that the older families support. That'll destroy your son's scoutin' experience as well as other boys'.

 

So think about what you can support for your son in terms of outdoors, and uniforms, and youth leadership, and adult leaders, and patrols, and contact with older boy mentors, and patrol independence, and advancement. For advancement questions, mine would be:

 

How much are you invested in your son's advancement progress? Do yeh expect him to move at a certain pace? Do yeh expect/demand Eagle? If you're heavily invested in your son's advancement, then you won't be happy with a troop that has less advancement focus, or sets higher expectations on learnin' for advancement. When you feel your son is getting behind your desired pace, you'll start harassing the kid and the troop, and that's not a good thing. You need to find a troop that has a lot of advancement focus, and sets da bar a bit lower to allow for rapid progress on your schedule.

 

Alternately, if you are really focused on your son's skill development and development of responsibility, then yeh need a troop that makes advancement contingent on those things. Otherwise you will be very frustrated and unhappy when he or his peers get awards that you fell aren't yet merited by their actions.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

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My approach to the parents in my troop is: Have their boy go off with the other boys "while the adults talk". Then I take the first half hour of the visit with the parents having them watch their boy interact with the boys of the troop. THEN, we sit down and I field questions. This observation of how their son is reacting is vital to any and all questions they may have. I find that having watched, the parents don't spend a lot of time talking generalities, but specifics about, why are the boys all in little groups? Why are some doing one thing and others doing something else? etc. This will then lead to how the parents perceive how a troop is run and whether their son would be a good fit into the program. If on the other hand all the boys hung out together and cliqued up into their friend groups, and the new boys kinda hung out around the fringes, that would tell you something as well. Who's talking to your kid? What's he telling him? Is he genuine in his conversation? etc.

 

This observation approach allows each parent a picture of a thousand words that will speak more for your troop than any planned presentation or question/answer session the parents may be involved in.

 

I also take my top scouts aside and do this very same thing for their input and observations whenever I need to take the "pulse" of the program. Sometimes when one is involved, they don't see as much as and "outside observer". This is what parents are and need to be. You can always snag them up later if you need adult leaders for the troop.

 

Stosh

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I would attend several meetings and just observe. Are they having fun? What are the Scouts learning? What are they doing? What are the Patrols like? How do the Scouts interact with each other and with adult leaders?

 

As you talk to the SM & SPL see if you can distill out some information about the Troop, including... What kinds of activities are they involved in? How often do they camp? What do they do on camping trips? What kinds of service projects are they involved in? How much do things cost? What kinds of fund raisers are they involved in, how much time is involved? As a parent, what role is expected of you? Committee? ASM?

 

Least important would be advancement rates, # of merit badges pounded out, and how many Eagles a year they produce.

 

Rather than judging a Troop solely by the SM & SPL sales pitch, I'd watch and let your gut guide you. If it feels right, if your son would advance at a reasonable rate, and he'd have fun, then go with it!

 

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Irsap -- in asking your question, I'd say you did a pretty good job of answering it. For all the reasons outlined below (mostly by Mafaking), there is going to be variation from program to program. I teach at National Camp School and our mantra there is "the program is flexible, policies are not."

 

As far at the grey area stuff, it's fair to take some of the horror stories you've read about here as ask. How does a troop decide what good enough looks like? How do they handle boys who aren't performing in a POR or don't measure up to the troop's definition of Scout Spirit?

 

I'm going to disagree with Eagle92 and some others about having your son be the one to ask these question. Of course he needs to talk to the SPL and other Scouts to have his questions answered. But I absolutely believe as a parent you have an OBLIGATION to ask, understand and be comfortable with the program in which you are enrolling your son. You are making a commitment for your son to be part of an organization for the stated purpose of influencing ou son's character? And you're going to let the kids handle it? Your son need to do his own due diligence and make up his own mind, but you need to do the same and be in a position to guide your boy toward a good choice.

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Here is a copy of what I provide to Webelos leaders and parents when I do a "find a troop" presentation. I found this several years ago on another website (usscouts.org). Some of what is here is dated (15 years old), but generally applies.

 

I hope it helps.

 

*******************************

 

The following are taken from BSA Publication No. 18-251, 1995 Printing entitled Are You Delivering The Promise.

Troop has earned Quality Unit Award

Scoutmaster has completed basic training.

Troop follows traditional troop-meeting pattern, standard troop-meeting plan with two or more skills training groups)

Troop has a high ratio of active adults to youth.

Leaders regularly attend roundtable.

Troop meetings are planned at Patrol Leaders' Council meetings.

Woods Wisdom is used in planning Troop program.

A patrol for new Scouts exists, with a Troop Guide and Assistant Scoutmaster.

Troop adds at least ten Scouts each year.

Troop has annual minimum of twenty-five days and nights of camping.

Troop attends a council long-term camp.

Leaders are proficient in outdoor skills.

Troop has at least twenty-one Scouts.

Troop has a program for older Scouts.

 

 

Other volunteers based on experience have suggested that the above not be applied rigidly as a test for a good Troop, noting that it is possible to find a Troop that meets all of the above criteria, but still fails use the patrol method. Others have noted that in rural and some urban settings adding 10 new Scouts in a year may not be realistic for a particular unit and not a valid criteria. Still others have suggested the following things to consider:

Convenience of the day and location of weekly troop meetings, and

Which troop a boy's best friends are going to join or already belong to.

Is the troop run by the boys or the adults?

Is there good scout skills instruction for newer scouts?

Is there strong patrol activity or inter-patrol activity, like

competitions or games?

Are the boys just sitting around or are they busy most of the time?

How often does the troop go on outings of some sort?

Is it a back packing/hiking troop or car camping troop?

Is there a diversity of ranks throughout the troop? All Second Class and Tenderfoot ranks will tell you it's a pretty new troop with no maturity in leadership. All Life and Eagle scouts means it's a troop about to graduate and disappear on you, and a troop full of leaders with no followers.

Is there sufficient adult help around for the size of the troop?

Have any of these Troops contacted you, or did you contact them? This means are they actively recruiting?

Troop Meeting run by Youth - The troop is a real life opportunity for Scouts to learn leadership through participation. It is unfortunately a well kept secret that the Scout program is a leadership training program with the outdoors as a laboratory.

Patrol Method Used - The Patrol Method gives Scouts an experience in group living and participating in leadership activities. The patrols determine troop activities through their elected representatives.

Trained Youth & Adults - Understanding the concepts of leadership helps each person accept the leadership roles of others and guides them toward the citizenship aim of Scouting.

Uniformed Youth & Adults - The uniform makes the Scout troop visible as a group. It shows each Youth and Adult's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting.

Troop Meetings Planned by Youth - Patrol Leaders' Council of the Troop should plan the Troop meetings, campouts and activities. It is an important part of the leadership experience.

Troop Calendar Planned by Youth - Ask who planned the calendar. It should be planned by the Patrol Leaders' Council and approved by the Troop Committee.

Troop Calendar Published - It needs to be planned and published or it does not exist.

Troop Roster Published - Look and see if you find someone you know and then call them. Ask them about the program, leaders and activities.

Troop Monthly Mailings - Even the best calendar needs updating.

Troop Program Explained During Visit - Each Scout program should plan programs that work towards the three aims of Scouting.

Dues and Fees Explained - You should know how the Troop program is financed and what the money you are paying is used for. Find out what the campouts and activities cost.

Troop Fundraising Assists Youth - We believe the purpose of fund raising is to help you and your son participate in Scouting. Most of the profits go to items that benefit the Scouts.

Enthusiasm of Youth & Adults - If the youth and adults are not excited by their program, why should you join!

Were you asked to Join - Not only should you be made to feel welcome at the Troop Meeting.

How does your Son Feel - What was your son's impression of the visit. When he joins a program, you also become a part of it.

 

There probably isn't a single test that fits all units and certainly no one checklist will be best for making your decision about which Boy Scout Troop to join. The best advice may be to spend some time with the Troop you are thinking about joining and seeing whether it is a good fit between the new boys and boys already in the Troop. Does the Troop offer all the things you think your Cub Scout will need? Will he have fun? Sit down and make up your own checklist and visit several Troops. Pick the one that is best for you.

 

 

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