Non-team player scout

[Buffalo Skipper]

Greetings everyone!

We had a good time at summer camp, but I have run into a scout with whom we are facing some challenges. He is a new scout who was not in Cub Scouts/Webelos. He gets along with his patrol members fine, but he absolutely refuses to do any work.

 

I can go on about him, but let me offer one example. At camp he was charged with sweeping a portion of the pavillion. At first, it appeared that he just didn't know how to sweep. But as he was given instructions on how, he simply was unwilling to follow a single example. It became clear to the (adult) leaders that he really didn't want to complete this 5 minute task. His 45 minute effort to stall, delay or just avoid the work ended up making the entire troop late for breakfast that day.

 

As the week progressed, we kept a closer eye on him, and it became obvious that he did no work at all, and that he spent a considerable effort convincing others to do everything for him. I would say he has the attention span of a fly, but that really would be insulting the fly, because when I reach out to catch a fly in my hand, that fly will give me its undivided attention until he flies off or I catch him.

 

Any ideas on how to work with this scout?

[mbrownkc7]

I don't always have the best advise but it works for me.

 

Tell him that we all work as a group and the tasks being asked of you are not anything we wouldn't ask of anyone else. If you don't like the work and don't wish to help out, then maybe this activity is not for you.

 

Plan and simple. If you want to be part of the group, and this can and will include some work, then do as you are asked and help out. If not then see you later and good luck to you. If you ever change your mind, we will still be here and would welcome you back with open arms.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Before this goes any farther, I would have the SPL have a talk with him about how a Boy Scout Troop and the Patrols function. If the current behavior continues after this chat, I would have as sit down with the Scout, SPL, & the Scout's mom & dad to explain the situation & see if you can come up with a workable solution.

[John-in-KC]

It might be worth looking for the deeper dynamic here.

 

Is this young man being dumped on you as a "BabySitters of America" plan? What is his outlook away from the Troop? Is he quiet, retiring, not willing to do work there either?

 

Does he have supportive parents and sibs? OTOH, is the family dynamic one of damnation to the youth?

 

Is he just hugely homesick?

 

If you find what makes him tick, you might find what gets him to go.

 

ETA: Ed was posting just ahead of me. His advice is valuable too

 

Good hunting, exploring him. I wish you well, and keep us in the loop.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Buffalo Skipper]

This scout is just plain immature. He has supportive parents, but I can only assume he is given no responsibilities at home. He was not homesick, and has been to church camp for a week several years.

 

I would describe him as the laziest scout I have ever seen, but like the fly, that would be inaccurate. He spent 10x the effort getting out of the task than he would have ever spent doing it.

 

If any of you are familiar with John Rosemond, you will understand that this 11 year old scout has never progressed past the "toddler" stage of development. He is the center of his world, and anyone who doesn't believe that simply hasn't yet realized his truth.

 

He made Tenderfoot, but I do not know if I can, in good conscience, sign off his scout spirit for 2nd Class. To him the only valid point of the Scout Oath is "... to do my duty to myself." Oh wait, that's not really in the scout oath is it? We he almost had me convinced.

[evmori]

If you can't sign him off on Scout Spirit, don't.

[scoutingagain]

"Oh wait, that's not really in the scout oath is it?"

 

Yes it is. "Keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."

 

But that is the third of the three duties in the Oath, after Duty to God and Duty to Others.

 

SA

[scoutldr]

My nephew, who is severely LD, is a "lazy toad", to borrow a phrase from Eamonn. I don't really think the two conditions are connected, however. He was in Scouts until his first campout, which he was very excited about...then he found out he had to actually cook, clean up and do his share of the work, rather than just sit around and poke sticks in the fire. Scouting was just not compatible with his lifestyle, and his dad didn't do anything to countermand that notion. He is no longer a Scout, which is a real pity. If you want to play ball, you eventually have to get off the bench.

[Lisabob]

You only have one of these fellows in your troop? Lucky you. I think it is human nature to be self-centered up to a certain point. Most of us grow past that, but not without considerable "help" from our elders (both youth and adult), sometimes in the form of a friendly kick in the rear.

 

When I worked as a summer camp counselor, I recall being really shocked at how many kids had never made a bed, never set or cleared a table, never done dishes, etc. And it wasn't only the rich ones!

 

It may be that this boy isn't used to being an equal member of a real group (where some adult isn't doing everything for him). Scouting might be his first experience with that. And he's only 11. I have a lot less patience when they're 16-17-18 and still behaving that way. Be patient, but be clear and firm and consistent with him. (And I do like the notion of your SPL having a little chat with him too.)

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm with Lisabob. Seen this a bunch, eh? Is the boy an only child so home life revolves around him, too? Usually these lads are fairly bright.

 

To my mind da things to do are these:

 

1) Don't get angry or impatient. These are part of da way he's learned to manipulate you, eh? Impatient people end up doin' the task themselves, or letting him by with less. Angry people vent their spleen, but feel the lecture / shouting is a valid substitute for him really doin' the work.

 

2) Know what things he really likes to do, what he values. Dat's your leverage.

 

3) Set up clear cause-and-effect consequences, and stick to them like they are fundamental, immutable laws of nature. If you don't clean the pot, yeh don't get to do anything else until you do. If yeh don't sweep the floor, yeh don't get to do your favorite thing. No anger, no impatience, just da immutable law of the universe. No lectures about cause & effect, no contracts, no rules sheets, no threats.

 

Like gravity. Cause and effect. Kids learn all about gravity because it's consistent and yeh can't argue with it.

 

4) Be prepared in the beginning, eh? The lad is goin' to make the stubbornest mule seem docile. If yeh turn your back for a moment he's goin' to escape. If there's a "weak link" adult or youth leader he's goin' to exploit it. Get everyone on the same page, and be prepared for a few "epic battles" over dirty dishes or whatnot that end in tears and the most grudging compliance. You're goin' to have to be prepared to have one or two adults dealin' with him full time for a day or two.

 

5) Be ready with the carrot. When he's makin' real progress, be effusive in your praise and get him some minor special privilege.

 

6) Whatever yeh do, don't get to thinkin' that he's a Lazy Toad or whatnot, it'll steer you off course. The boy is a good kid. Make sure he knows that you see him that way. He's just a good kid who isn't walkin' on his own yet because in his home life, he wins arguments with gravity. Not a bad kid, just an odd behavior. Teach him in scouts that he can't argue with gravity, and pretty soon he'll get up on his feet and be walkin'.

 

Summer camp is da best time to do this, eh? Because he can't just hold out until he gets home. But yeh can make it work on regular two-day weekend outings if yeh start right at the beginnin' and go for smaller victories.

 

Beavah

 

Beavah

 

[The Blancmange]

Beavah's advice is sound. I used to fall squarely within No. 1, until I figured out that the kids just learned to smile and nod during my lecture, and then I ended up doing the job. It never worked.

 

 

[BrentAllen]

I think you can take this problem on in one or two ways - the adults handle it, or the boys do.

 

It will be easier if the adults handle it, as Beavah mentions, but I'm not sure if it is the most effective, in the long run.

 

If you have a strong-willed Scout as his PL, you have a chance of letting the boys work it out. The PL will need plenty of coaching and support, from his SPL, his other Patrol members, and the other adults. If the boy in question refuses to do his part, the Patrol doesn't move forward until the boy completes the task. The Patrol may miss out on some fun events, but that is the price they have to pay, and the boy sees this. It can cause some hard feelings, but this is part of developing patrol spirit. The boy sees he needs to be a part of the team and pull his weight, or the team suffers. When arguments develop, the SM steps in to observe, but doesn't act unless it really gets out of hand. If the boy goes to the SM to plead his case, the SM defers to the PL. This reminds me of breaking a wild horse (which I've never personally done) in that it is going to take time and hard work.

The final card for the SM, if things don't work out, is to remove the boy from the Patrol and put him in his own one-man Patrol (unless you have another boy with a similar attitude). Let him be in charge of his own camping - tenting, meals, etc. If it goes that far, you are probably going to lose the boy. None of us like to lose a Scout, but we all have to realize that Scouting isn't for everyone.

Good luck.

[Beavah]

Yah, BA's is a great way to go, eh? And in a troop with a well-developed patrol method da boys will execute that on their own without even any of our coachin'.

 

Takes some finesse if you're buildin' toward that, because the most natural thing in the world is for his patrol mates to just roll their eyes and do this boy's work, so that they can get to their activity. And that's partly good patrol spirit, eh? We want kids to support their patrol members who are havin' a hard time on any particular day. We just don't want 'em doin' it for the one boy who "takes advantage."

 

One of the things that's true is that for first-year boys, there's not yet a lot of deeper respect and friendship with other patrol members and youth leaders. So those young lads can resist da peer pressure from the others more than others. They're also not goin' to be used to takin' "orders" from other youth. That's where yeh need some adult back-up.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

That's really true about 1st year boys not being used to taking orders from other boys. Often parents do not understand this either, and so Junior goes home, complains about how some other kid "bossed me around" all weekend, and parent sympathizes, not knowing that that "other kid" was the patrol leader (or SPL) and that's roughly how things are supposed to work.

 

Brent's approach can work too, but it depends a LOT on the boys in the patrol. It can also lead to situations where boys quit because they don't want to put up with that constant annoyance. And the ones who quit first aren't likely to be the ones causing the problems, but rather the genuinely nice kids who didn't join scouting in order to have frustrating experiences every weekend. So there's a real balance to be struck here, which is often a challenge. I think Brent's approach may work better in a troop where patrol method is well developed AND where the patrols are mixed-age. If you have a whole group of new guys and they don't have any fun because one member is being a stinker, you risk losing many of the new guys who see that "boy scouting isn't any fun."

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Beavah's and Lisa's points on new Scouts in new-Scout patrols is spot on, especially if the new Scouts came from different Packs. If the boys are all from the same Pack, they may be used to the boy's behaviour and just roll with it, which is probably your worst situation.

 

The solution I mentioned is for a mixed-age Patrol. You are going to need an older, strong-willed PL to have a chance at pulling it off, someone the boys respect and follow. That is our current situation. We have decided not to use New Scout Patrols.