Alcohol at Eagle Court of Honor Reception

[John-in-KC 311]

P212: I wouldn't argue agains Judge Paul. He really does know New York law. He really is a trial court judge.

 

Stosh, most Troops I know provide support to ECOH's, but the event is planned, coordinated, and put on by the family of the Eagle. Those that provide a fully packaged ECOH tend to be adult run units.

 

E: To be sure I said what I meant to say, it's possible to deliver a message in terms no one can misunderstand, but to do it in a civil manner. "Mr Jackson, as Bobby's Scoutmaster, I strongly recommend against serving liquor at his ECOH reception. If you choose to, the CC and I will have to reconsider our participation. If you choose to, we will have to inform Scouts and their parents." I also believe this particular message should be delivered by one of 3 people: The COR, the CC, or the SM.

 

ScoutDad: IMO, it's time for the SM to publicly demonstrate moral courage. It comes with the title. If her credibility is at issue, bump to the COR.

[NeilLup 13]

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

"The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members"

 

It would seem to be very simple. If it is an Eagle Court of Honor and youth are involved, it would fall under this provision of the Guide to Safe Scouting. And it would be hair splitting of the first order to say something like "Well the Eagle Court of Honor with the youth is in the living room and the youth aren't allowed into the den where the booze is flowing freely."

 

However, I am extremely sympathetic to the problem of the SM trying to be the guardian of morals if that runs counter to what the CC and other MCs want to do. That's asking the SM to do something that's not the SM's job and risks only hurting the SM's credibility.

 

I would consider expressing it as a concern in an e-mail to all committee members publicly saying something like "I just became aware of this provision of the Guide to Safe Scouting. I wonder if we are violating this seriously with the plans for the Eagle Court of Honor? Couldn't we just do without alcohol this one time?"

 

Having said that, while many people choose not to drink alcohol in uniform, there is, I believe no such restriction if youth are not present. Some people believe that alcohol is morally inappropriate or sinful, but many (probably most) do not.

[evmori 11]

John,

 

I seriously doubt if there is a law on the books that prohibits the serving of alcohol in a private home when youth are present.

[scoutldr 726]

This is a tough one. I think the first "misstep" was agreeing to have the ECOH, a troop function, at the home of the scout. If it were, say, at the troop's normal meeting place, a simple cake and punch reception, hosted by the troop, could follow. Then if the scout's parents wanted to have a blow-out at their home, more power to them...just make it clear that it's being hosted by the parents, not the troop. Unfortunately, when you agreed to move the troop ECOH to their home, you lost control. The parents are within their rights to tell you to "get bent" if you try to enforce BSA rules in their home.

 

 

[Stosh 3452]

"Stosh, most Troops I know provide support to ECOH's, but the event is planned, coordinated, and put on by the family of the Eagle. Those that provide a fully packaged ECOH tend to be adult run units."

 

So it would seem that even though the scout's family often times coordinate the festivities, the ECOH is still the responsibility of BSA. After all it is a rank advancement. While it may be true that parents do plan, coordinate, etc. in troops that someone may know of in their area, it doesn't always hold true that it is that way across the board. As a courtesy, many troops allow the involvement of parents' plans and coordination, it is still up to the troop to provide the ECOH ceremony.

 

The troops in our area have always had the ECOH at a school, church or other public reception hall. I have attended family gatherings for the Eagle following at a second reception at the boy's home. As Scoutldr has indicated, once one abducates to family residence, the control is lost.

 

As far as being adult-led troops calling the shots, our COH's are all patrol-led, each PL is responsible for his patrol's part of the presentations and this shouldn't be a major change if it's an ECOH. The PL or if the Eagle candidate is the PL, then the APL would take over. If the Eagle candidate wishes to have some adult leader make the presentation, he could make his request known to the PL/APL.

 

I just see too many adults doing what a scout should be doing in most of these activities.

 

Stosh

[NeilLup 13]

"Unfortunately, when you agreed to move the troop ECOH to their home, you lost control. The parents are within their rights to tell you to "get bent" if you try to enforce BSA rules in their home. "

 

With respect, Scoutldr, I strongly disagree with this.

 

Let's say that the parents of a Scout agree to let the Troop camp on their private property on which their house is located. The parents choose to dispense with some of the rules G2SS on their private property. Say, for example, they are perfectly comfortable with adults tenting with youth, showering with youth, etc.

 

In this case, I do not believe that the Scouting unit has lost control. The unit simply must say "I am sorry, but the rules of the Guide to Safe Scouting must be followed. You can be MORE strict if you wish and we will honor that, but we must follow those rules as a minimum. If that is not acceptable, we must decline your very kind invitation."

 

Same thing in this case. The problem in this case is "Quis custodiet ipsos custodios -- who will watch the guardians?" The people that are supposedly ensuring that the rules are followed are the ones holding the party.

 

However, as I read the original post, there was concern that this MIGHT happen based upon what normally was done in their social circle, not that it would or that it was planned. Possibly, a clarification to the parents of the clearcut rules in the Guide to Safe Scouting would be sufficient to ensure that there will be no problem.

[John-in-KC 311]

What does the unit provide?

 

It may (or may not) provide the Master of Ceremonies.

It may (or may not) provide the Color Guard.

It may (or may not) provide the Guest Speaker.

It may (or may not) provide the facility.

It may (or may not) provide the programs.

 

Now, EagleSon had his ECOH with five other young men. The only thing the unit actually provided was the MC, their SM/Advisor (they we co-chartered in a Crew). Everything else was planned and coordinated by youth, and procured and funded by the parents. That included the Color Guard, which was made up of HS Scouting friends and one kid brother Scout.

 

Am I arguing against speaking out? No. There, are, though, three right people to do it. COR, CC, SM. If all of them are uncomfortable, then they need to bump it to the friendly Unit Commissioner (assuming there is one) for a proper business appointment with Mom and/or Dad. They have moral means to persuade, with the fall on the sword position being witholding their support to the ceremony.

 

We also have to remember that once the MC says "please join us for the reception", if the unit isn't providing the reception, the event is done. It's all the more done that the event is in the home.

 

The unit has to have some skin in the game. To walk up and just wave the rules is going to get you a polite "Thank you, we'll miss you" from Mom and Dad. There are ways to deliver the message, but they need to be done such that the message is received and acted on in the way we desire.

 

Then, after this ECOH, change the troop operating practices so that an ECOH in the home just won't be supported.

[scoutldr 726]

I, too respect the Judge's opinion. Could he elaborate as to what statute would be violated?

[evmori 11]

This is a tough one. I think the first "misstep" was agreeing to have the ECOH, a troop function, at the home of the scout. If it were, say, at the troop's normal meeting place, a simple cake and punch reception, hosted by the troop, could follow.

 

An ECOH is NOT a troop function. The troop can assist but it is in no way a function of a troop to provide a ECOH. This is strictly an individual thing.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Stosh 3452]

My apologies, I have always viewed the rank of Eagle a BSA troop issue. Maybe if it was, we wouldn't have so many people viewing it as a graduation from Scouting ceremony put on by the parents. Oops, graduations are a school function. Maybe a gradutation from Church confirmation ceremony, Opps, that is a church function, my mistake again. Hmmm, nope, I just can't come up with a ECOH ceremony for the scout as being anything other than a scout activity. Wedding? Nope, it's either a legal issue or we're back to a church issue here again. Give me some time and I'll try and come up with a good example of where ECOH is not a scout activity....... but don't hold your breath. :^)

 

Oh? The reception? Sure that's a family thingy, serve alcohol? Sure, why not. Cigars? Nope, that's for baby births.... my mistake again. Too many traditions to keep it all straight.

 

The highest rank IN Scouting. It's not an add-on program for families. Maybe if everyone didn't emphasize the narssasitic nature of the award, maybe the boy's wouldn't view this as gradutation from Scouting.

 

Stosh

[nldscout 18]

Some of you have asked about my statement that this may be against the law and didn't beleive that it could be. Below is an abstract of NY State Penal Law section 260.21.

 

260.21 Unlawfully dealing with a child in the second degree.

 

A person is guilty of unlawfully dealing with a child in the second degree when:

 

1. Being an owner, lessee, manager or employee of a place where alcoholic beverages are sold or given away, he permits a child less than sixteen years old to enter or remain in such place unless:

 

(a) The child is accompanied by his parent, guardian or an adult authorized by a parent or guardian; or

 

(b) The entertainment or activity is being conducted for the benefit or under the auspices of a non-profit school, church or other educational or religious institution; or

 

© Otherwise permitted by law to do so

 

 

Now let me tell you why I know this one so good.

 

We had a Past DE, that after the Districts Day Camp was done, the next day he had a after camp party at his house. There was beer served to adults. No youth was given anything to drink, nor was there any accusation that he did. There were 2 14 yr old Den Chiefs from the Day Camp there without thier parents. The parents did not know there was going to be beer and when they went to get the boys, the adults were on the Back deck chillin with a brew, while the kids were in the pool or playing games on the lawn.

 

As a result of the parents complaints to the Sheriff, the DE was arrested, charged with 2 counts of PL 260.21, a class B Misdemenor,

suspended from his job by council, had to hire an attorney, be fingerprinted, and now has a record and was eventually fired.

 

So ladies and gentleman, there are all sorts of funny, strange, possibly senseless laws out there, that you can be charged with. Especially when your dealing with minors and alcohol.

[John-in-KC 311]

There is a really good time to say "Alcohol at the reception fails the common sense test." That would be at the initial planning meeting for the ECOH. In EagleSon's unit, the first meeting of youth and parents was with someone who'd been down the ECOH trail before. He/she gave some broad ideas on what right could look like.

 

Heck, one of the neat things about EagleSon's ECOH day was what all the kids did. That morning, most of them were involved with their HS in a local fall festival parade. The kids in the band, EagleSon included, marched. The kids on the football team (the rest) rode the team float.

 

The other neat thing I remember is that after the festivities, he and I went out to our Lodges' fall fellowship, had a steak dinner, and watched ceremonies and Vigil Call.

 

Lest anyone think otherwise, alcohol at an ECOH reception? Doesn't pass the common sense test. The problem is how to manage the recalcitrant parents at this point, especially when the event and the aftermath are in their home.

[John-in-KC 311]

Duplicate content, any Moderator encountering this may remove it. John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[evmori 11]

Gotta say nldscout if that law was actually enforced, I would bet 90% of the population of NY would be in jail!

 

The Eagle rank is still part of the BSA. An ECOC may be, but for a Scout to receive his Eagle, he doesn't need to have an ECOH! That is up to the Scout & his parents. And while I agree alcohol should not be presents when Scouts are around, if the parents have the ECOH at their house, it's their call!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[nldscout 18]

Ed,

 

You are absolutly correct. When the attorneys were discussing this, here is one example given that highlights how a poorly woorded law can affect people.

 

You are doing some work at your house, say fixing the roof. I come over to help you. We slave away for a few hours, finish and you say, lets have a cold one to relax. At the same time, your 12 yr old son has invited a friend over to play video games. You hand me a beer, you take one, we sit on deck to relax. You just committed a crime.

 

All those that have done the above, raise your right hand, or better let me know I will send the boys with the steel bracelets for ya.

 

By the way, my hand was up on this one. Fortunatly the case I mentioned was not in my court as I knew the DE and recused myself.