District Has Set Limits (7-MBs/Counselor & Max 5/Eagle)

[OldGreyEagle]

On March 31-April 1 I attended an Advancement Workshop sponsored by Patriots Path Council in New Jersey. It was staffed by two gentlemen from the National Advancement Committee. These two put on Advancement Training at Philmont. If you PM me I will give you their names. One of them made the comment that the publication "Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures" was misnamed because there wasnt anything "Guide" about it, it is the Policy and Procedure of the BSA.

 

Having said that, you can imagine there were lots of questions raised and answered. Some of the items I came away with is that Councils have a lot of autonomy in running their day to day operations. Yes, the Advancement Book says there is not limit to how many merit badges a counselor may counsel, or place a limit on how many a scout can earn from a counselor, but how would National know and what are they to do? To appeal a decision to National, the issue has to be either the scoutmaster or unit committee does not reccomend a scout for a Board of Review or the Scoutmaster or Unit COmmittee does not sign an Eagle Application. This is one (I know, looks like two to me)

 

or

 

The Board of Review does not advance the scout, this decision may be appealed. And that it. So, unless the reason a Board of Review is not held due to who counseled the merit badges, National is not going to be involved. I think the intent is clear. Its best to get 21 merit badges from 21 different people, that would be Adult Association at its best, but that may not be possible so there are no restrictions, Nationally. Even the Merit Badge Counselor Supplemental training module found on the BSA website says that there is not limit on how many badges a Counselor may counsel, it also immediately extols the virtures of multiple counselors.

 

In the Troop I serve we have a "gentlemen's agreement" that no father will counsel his son for an Eagle Required merit badge unless its done in a group (with individual testing naturally)because we had a father sign his son off on about a dozen merit badges, he was registered for all of them but the kid didnt know much about any. We couldnt do anything, but we resolved to try to limit it in the future. If someone said to heck with you and did sign off like 6 Eagle required merit badges for their son, it would be, well ok. Thats all it can be. There has to have been an issue in the past to bring about this present "rule". Perhaps understanding the past would help in this instance.

 

So, can the District set a Limit? Well, yes it can, it did didnt it? Will the limit stand an appeal? Probably not, but is it such a horrible limit? Do you want to involve a youth in the appeal process? What if the scout ages out and the appeal is denied? I echo Lisabob, is this a fight worth the effort, the worst thing that happens with this rule is the Scout is forced to have contact with multiple adults, is that so bad?

[ajmako]

Beavah wrote: Can/should a district do anything if a SM is the counselor for every MB earned in his troop (or earned by his son, or...). I read some people as sayin' "no, nothing can be done, everyone is bound by the two sentences in ACP&P."

 

Beavah,

As one you probably read as saying "no" my answer is: yes, the council/district can do something to discourage this sort of thing. The council/district has the responsibility of 1) recruiting qualified merit badge counselors, and 2) training them. Noted in my other message was the list of qualifications for a merit badge counselor, which includes "recognized as having the skills and education in the subjects for which they are to serve as merit badge counselors." So the first thing the district can do is make an effort to ensure approved merit badge counselors are indeed qualified.

 

Secondly, the district is responsible for training not only merit badge counselors, but Scoutmasters and unit advancement chairs as well. That gives the district the ability to establish high standards for merit badge counselors and convince unit leaders to adopt the same high standards for the merit badge counselors they recruit.

 

Ultimately, the district isn't responsible for assigning merit badge counselors to Scouts, so imposing some kind of restriction in that regard is overstepping their authority. It's up to unit leaders to encourage Scouts to meet with a variety of different counselors instead of just using the same one over and over again. I don't have a problem with a unit establishing restrictions on how many merit badges a Scout can earn from a single counselor, or limiting the number of badges a counselor can counsel.

 

Beavah wrote: Because councils in the U.S. range from geographically huge, rural ones to tight, near-urban ones, settin' one "national" policy just wouldn't work, eh? Which is why we have local councils and districts, to figure out how to interpret the real policies so they work in their area.

 

Well, if National wanted to have restrictions and limitations, or wanted local councils and districts to have the authority to make restrictions and limitations, I think they would say it in the manual the appropriate committee is supposed to use. Since no such authority is granted in the ACP&P I would question the validity of a district policy.

 

The Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures manual is exactly what it claims to be--official BSA policies and procedures. The text I quoted is in fact official national policy. You are right, however, that "violation" isn't the right word for not following the policy. Policies are not rules or regulations and the text I quoted is neither a rule or a regulation. The question I have to ask is exactly what is accomplished by publishing a policy manual that includes a policy that is contrary to a rule or regulation? Even if we assume it's not a policy manual, that it's merely a guidebook or "best practices" book, what good is a "best practice" that is contrary to a rule, regulation, or official policy?

 

OldGreyEagle wrote: So, can the District set a Limit? Well, yes it can, it did didnt it? Will the limit stand an appeal? Probably not, but is it such a horrible limit? Do you want to involve a youth in the appeal process? What if the scout ages out and the appeal is denied? I echo Lisabob, is this a fight worth the effort, the worst thing that happens with this rule is the Scout is forced to have contact with multiple adults, is that so bad?

 

The answers are no, officially the district can't set the limit. Just because the district can get away with it doesn't make it right or allowed. My district used to get away with requiring a minimum number of man-hours for Eagle Service Projects; didn't make it right or allowable. No, it won't stand on appeal, and it's a sad state of affairs for something called Scouting that a district has to get caught doing something wrong before they bother doing it right. No, I don't want to involve the Scout in an appeal, but again, the only reason an appeal would be necessary is because the district is not following official policy. Since National tends to give the Scout the benefit of the doubt in appeals, I can't see such an appeal being denied.

 

As far as whether or not the district policy is good or bad, that should be obvious. The policy isn't all that bad in and of itself, but it's not right whether it has good results or not. There are other means of ensuring Scouts have contact with multiple adults--means that are within the published rules, regulations, policies and procedures. Perhaps we should try those first.(This message has been edited by ajmako)

[LongHaul]

In response to ajmako's response to my post I'd like to say that "can" and "shall" are not synonyms and that just because I can do something does not necessarily mean I must do something. If you wanted to appeal the decision of the DAC to limit MBCs to 7 merit Badges what you'd have to appeal is the fact that you as a registered Adult volunteer were denied the opportunity to counsel a given badge solely because you are already approved to counsel 7 other badges. The DAC coming out and saying "I will not approve a MBC for more than 7 badges." isn't something that can be appealed to National particularly if the CAC upheld the DACs position. In my Council the limit is 10 per counselor.

LongHaul

 

[jr56]

A while ago the DE came to me when I was the District Advancement Chair. He wanted to place limits on the number of merit badges a counselor could sign up for. I refused to go along because it is against National Policy, and it would make it difficult for me as the District Advancement Chair to provide a complete list of merit badge counselors. He backed down.

[ajmako]

LongHaul wrote: The DAC coming out and saying "I will not approve a MBC for more than 7 badges." isn't something that can be appealed to National particularly if the CAC upheld the DACs position.

 

Well, all I can say is there's no real appeal process involved here. If my DAC imposed this policy in my district I'd simply ask him to provide me with his reasoning and the national policy that gives him the authority to do it. It's not hard to guess I don't agree with the idea that the ACP&P gives him that authority, which means we go to the next step. Without much difficulty we can get an answer from National, and I would happily abide by that answer.

 

It's just my experience is that not every DAC even knows what the ACP&P is, let alone what it says--like the folks who thought Eagle Service Projects weren't valid unless the Scout put in 100 man-hours, or the guy who thought since the district was responsible for EBOR's the district should take over the whole Eagle advancement process, or the guy who wasn't willing to convene a BOR until a Scout's project book exactly matched the workbook (it had to be in exactly the same order and use exactly the same wording or no EBOR). These are just a few examples. I'm sure they all thought they were doing the right thing, but each one of them claimed they had the authority to do it. All I'm saying is if I can't find it in the appropriate BSA manual, they should be able to point me to the right document.

[dluders]

I don't yet know WHY my Distric Executive (or the District Advancement Chair) has set these limits. I have my suspicions, but I will find out at tomorrow night's monthly Roundtable, when the DE and the Scout Executive will both be in attendance.

 

In the meantime, I bought a copy of the 2006 printing of the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures. On page 13, it indeed does say:

 

"There is no restriction or limit on the number of merit badges an individual may be approved to counsel for, but they must be approved by the committee for each specific merit badge." [Note that there is a mechanism for the District Advancement Committee to reign-in pencil-whipping MB counselors who are "too easy" -- they disapprove the pencil-whipper's merit badges counselor form.]

 

"There is no limit on the number of merit badges a youth may earn from one counselor." [This allows empty-nest older Scouters to teach different badges at our annual "Merit Badge College" to the same Scouts].

 

I am a Scoutmaster, and this issue doesn't affect my Life Scout son. However, it DOES affect some older Scouts were earned many of their merit badges from the same counselor 3 years ago (before I became Scoutmaster). The matter also affects a Wood Badge Scouter in another troop. So, I will fight this battle with my DE and ask him to rescind his letter. There have been some excellent points brought up in this forum, but the bottom line is that the ACP&P is pretty explicit -- NO LIMITS.

 

Although the DE's letter didn't have a "grandfather clause" that talked about previously-earned badges, on page 26 of the ACP&P it says "A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has been earned, provided the counselor is a registered counselor for the merit badge." It shouldn't be necessary to have to "appeal" this bogus limit when a Scout meets his Eagle Board of Review, and is turned down. It's extremely demoralizing to him. What happened to NATIONAL STANDARDS and UNIFORM requirements? Having one district have limits, and another district 10 miles away have no limits, smacks of unfairness. If individual Scouters are "pencil-whippers", then lean on them and let everyone else alone.

 

You know, this whole matter is UNENFORCEABLE in my council for these reasons:

 

a) My district handed back a huge baggie full of the "blue cards" a year ago to the Scoutmasters. The district had updated their database, and didn't want to store the blue cards anymore.

 

b) In her computer database, the Council Registrar does not record WHO the merit badge counselors were, so without PROOF there's no way that they would know whether the 5 MBs/Eagle limit was exceeded or not. Unless the Scout shows HIS blue card copies in his Eagle Book for his Eagle Board of Review, nobody would know the difference.

[Beavah]

Yah, dluders. I think you're gettin' your blood pressure up because you're misreading your DE's letter, and we folk on the forum haven't helped you much with that. Let me tell you what I think is really happening, in a hope that is makes for a calmer, more friendly meeting for everybody.

 

I am sure and certain that your council's policy will not affect any boy who has already earned a badge. As you say, ScoutNet doesn't track that anyway. So no need to worry about old badges from three years ago.

 

I am sure and certain that your council's policy will never hold up a boy who gets 6 or 7 badges from one counselor by mistake, or adult cluelessness, or whatever.

 

So relax, eh? That's not what this is about. They're telling you that they want the MBC's to try to live up to certain limits. Only choose 7 MB's to counsel, only sign 5 MB's for one boy. They're only going to let you register for 7 MB's at a time, but as far as the 5 MB's per boy thing goes, the reality is that's "Scout's Honor" on the MBC's and SM's part. They'll never hurt a boy over that, at most they will talk to (and perhaps drop) MBC's.

 

The net effect will be that you'll all work together to see boys have a good experience, and to sign up more MBC's in units where one or two guys have been doin' all the work. That'll also boost the # of registered volunteers for the pros, eh?

 

So this is not what you think it is. It is good people tryin' to do something right. I disagree with it only because I think there are a few great counselors out there who can do more than 7 badges, and why turn down a volunteer's gift of time? But I bet even those few cases will be accommodated by "special exception" in your council's policy.

 

Go to the meetin' with an open mind. Our BSA pros and district and council volunteers are our friends and brothers.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[dluders]

I found out today from my District Advancement Chair that these limits are COUNCIL POLICY, not just District policy. I still haven't heard one reason WHY these limits are in place.

 

I'm not going to agree with "Beavah" that I should just relax about this matter. Our new council policy is not in accordance with BSA policy as promulgated in ACP&P #33088.

 

There are Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) units in our area who DO have a greater heartburn with these limits than I do. I don't think that our Council or District Advancement folks want to address the perceived "Eagle Mill" reputation that certain LDS units have, so they're imposing these council-wide limits. They don't have the guts to address the problem up-front, so they impose council limits that are in complete violation of BSA policy.

 

"There are no limit." What part of the word "NO" don't they understand??? What other bogus, unfair limits will be imposed if we accept this?

[packsaddle]

OK, I've read the whole thread. I WISH we had this problem. It would mean that we actually HAD a district or council-wide MB program. I would be delighted to have the limits placed on the counselors especially if we actually had a program with actual registered counselors. As it is, we don't have the benefit of any of this. It is, I suppose, a matter of perspective...at least our butts aren't burned by the limits.

[dluders]

Indirectly from a fellow Scouter, here's the nominal reason that our District Executive has placed the merit badge limits:

 

"Our district has too many parents signing blue cards for Scouts and not holding the values we have strongly. Due to this, the committee has approved some guidelines to help stop the problem in the District."

 

Well then, why doesn't the District Advancement Committee not approve the Merit Badge Counselor applications for these "pencil-whippers"? Why should talented Scouters who do a GOOD JOB in teaching their merit badges be penalized with these limits?

 

Let me explain my situation as Scoutmaster. Last summer, my troop attended a Boy Scout summer camp whereby a full 40% of the merit badges were "partial credit." It didn't matter that I had written letters in advance to prove that my Scouts had met certain prerequisites ahead of time -- the 17-year-old counselors just issued partial credit on their portion only. To this day, I have a baggie full of partial-credit merit badge "blue cards."

 

To alleviate this backlog, I signed up to be an E-Prep counselor (just to sign off on the prerequisite for First Aid MB), a Metal Work MB counselor (to sign off on the metal shop tour requirement), and for Cooking MB. In Feb-Mar 2007, I taught a four-weekend class for Citizenship in the World MB and Coin Collecting MB. Not everyone completed the requirements, so I'm saddled with partial-completions. As Scoutmaster, I'm the "Camping" MB counselor for my troop. I'm an Engineer, so I'm signed up to teach Engineering MB too. I have a serious High-Powered Rocketry hobby, so I enjoy Space Exploration MB.

 

My Life Scout son isn't a strong swimmer or hiker, so we've been working on the time-consuming Cycling MB. I'm his counselor for that. Just the other day, my son asks me whether he could work on Aviation MB (since I work at an Air Force Base). Am I supposed to tell him, "Gee son, I can't because my illegal quota of 7-MBs-per-Counselor has been used up"?

 

A week ago, there was a nationwide news story about a Boy Scout who had recently earned 121 different merit badges. This was lauded as being a "good thing." I knew an Eagle Scout (who was the older brother of my son's Cub Scout denmates) who earned 42 Merit Badges. He happened to be from an LDS family. If these two Scouts were in OUR district, they wouldn't have a prayer about reaching their full potential.

 

All these limits are going to do is STIFLE learning and STIFLE personal growth. I'm not playing this game, since it's flat-out in violation of BSA policy.

 

 

 

 

[prairie]

Seven would be nice, we are restricted to 4.

[Lisabob]

dluders, it seems that there is a short-term and a long-term issue here. The short term problem is that this new limit of 7 MBs per counselor makes it difficult for boys to earn MBs that might not be so widely available. That's a problem worth taking up with your DAC and DE and I would expect them to have some flexibility here.

 

The longer term problem seems to be that your district doesn't have a very deep list of MB counselors. If you are really the only person in your district who can counsel, say, cycling or citizenship in the nation or whatever other badge, then the question might be, why isn't your district doing a better job of recruiting additional, well-qualified counselors? That is also a problem worth taking up with your DAC and DE - particularly in the vein of "A scout is helpful." Maybe, since you work at an AFB, you can help recruit some folks from the base to sign up as MBCs for some of the related badges. Maybe, since your son is in middle school or high school, you (or he) can approach some of his teachers about becoming MBCs. Maybe, since you are a rocketry enthusiast, you can encourage some of your fellow rocketry buffs to sign up as MBCs for that badge.

 

I realize that there are some MBs for which it is really difficult to locate counselors. Metalworking might be one of these - I know my district only has one person registered for that. But for a variety of the others you mentioned, I find it difficult to believe that YOU are the only person in your area who is registered. Unless you are trying to counsel all MBs in-house within your troop (which is, I believe, both a waste of district resources and a dis-service to your scouts who might really benefit from meeting other well-qualified adults outside your troop), then there should be no reason for you to feel you personally need to counsel some of these badges. And while it might be the most convenient solution for parents (just show up at the troop meeting night or meet with someone from the troop), parental convenience is not the bedrock of the program. If it were, we wouldn't bother with having district MBC lists at all and would just have each parent counsel their own child all the time.

 

In our district and council, some of the people who complain the loudest about our MBC system's lack of depth are also the same folks who elect only to counsel boys from their own troop. So finally, let me ask this: are you, or the other Scouters in your troop, doing this? If so, I hope you see how this makes it more problematic for every scout in your district because chances are, there are other MBCs doing the exact same thing for their troop too. Such a waste of resources.

 

I'm not saying you should drop the whole issue of limits on MBCs. You clearly feel strongly about it and it is important to you. But I am saying that maybe it would be helpful to take a bigger-picture look at both the underlying problem and some potential solutions to that problem.

[jr56]

I agree LisaBob. It used to aggravate me to no end when I was District Advancement Chair, all the MB counselors that would only do their own troop.

I also wonder how the Councils and Districts can get away with limiting counselor numbers since it clearly states in the Advancement Policy and Procedure Manual that this is not allowed, and that no Council, District, Unit, or Individual has the right to add to or detract from the policys.\

[dluders]

To answer "lisabob"s questions, no, my troop doesn't have just a few parents teaching all of the various Merit Badges. I've mentioned all the ones I'm counselor for (E-Prep, Metal Work, Cooking, Cycling, Camping, Cit in World, Coin Collecting, & Space Expl.). Although I admit that I prefer just working with only the Scouts in my own troop, it's out of necessity since I'm SHORT OF FREE TIME as Scoutmaster. I'm leaving in 45 minutes for my 3rd-consecutive Scouting night this week.

 

The Merit Badge College classes on Coin Collecting & Citizenship in the World were open to all Scouts. I taught these even though my own son had already gotten these.

 

There isn't a shortage of Merit Badge Counselors in my District. In fact, there's quite a few. That's the crux of the problem here. The District Executive thinks that there's too many parents who are signing off on too many merit badges and not upholding the high standards of Scouting. We have home-schooled kids who have dozens of BSA Merit Badge pamphlets at home, and they get credit for what they learned. The LDS units have their own youth program.

 

I found out today that our District Executive has agreed to conduct a survey amongst all of the Scouters to come up with a more equitable solution to the problem. I'll find out more at tonight's District Roundtable.

[John-in-KC]

Dluders,

 

When you said your last, my sympathy for your situation went South. You say yourself "Although I admit that I prefer just working with only the Scouts in my own troop,". Sorry, it doesn't cut it. A Scouter is Helpful.

 

As a Scoutmaster, you should be recruiting additional adults in your Troop to counsel MBs! Then, you should be getting them to MB Counselor training (in my District, the Advancement Committee sponsors this EVERY MONTH at roundtable).

 

If you were to work with the DAC and other area Scoutmasters to use all your resources (gee, didn't I have that beaten into my head at Wood Badge?), you might find there is a far smaller shortage than you really thought.

 

If you really, truly want to tilt at this windmill, you need to coordinate through your COR. Remember, the Chartered Partner is licensee of record of Boy Scouting. Scouters are simply agents of the the CP. They may want you to conserve your ammunition for what he thinks is the truly important issue.