Deathbed Eagles

[scoutldr]

As my troop matures and I continue to sit on EBOR as the District Rep, there's one thing that gnaws at me. The requirement to "serve 6 months in a POR since earning Life". More often than not, I am seeing 18 year olds sitting for their EBOR and the POR was 2 years ago. Since then, they have been AWOL from the troop and only surfaced to get the Eagle check in the box and disappear again.

 

Anyone else think that stinks? I would like to see the requirement changed to "In the 12 month period before your Eagle Board of Review serve actively in your troop, and serve at least 6 months in a POR approved by your SM."

[gwd-scouter]

scoutldr, I'd like to see that too. T-1st Class have some kind of active requirement (attend 5 outings, 10 outings, etc.), but S-E do not. As we all read in these forums, time and again someone will post a question about just what "active" means.

 

Interestingly enough, and I don't agree with it, but we have one troop in our District that actually added the requirement you speak of for advancement - i.e., no one in their troop advances to the next rank (any rank) unless they have 60% attendance for outings and meetings for the 12 months preceding their request for a SM conference and BOR for rank.

[evmori]

I would like to see the requirement changed to "In the 12 month period before your Eagle Board of Review serve actively in your troop, and serve at least 6 months in a POR approved by your SM."

 

This should be a part of Star, Life & Eagle requirements as well as Eagle Palms.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[John-in-KC]

I disagree with Ed as regards Eagle Palms.

 

As I understand it, the object of the "Demonstrate Leadership" is to show THE WHOLE MAN, the one from whom we expect "Scout Spirit" ... in other words, away from the Troop.

 

I want to see Eagles earning palms taking wing away from Scouting and showing leadership in the field!

 

 

[Eamonn]

I really dislike the term "Deathbed"!

OJ,was a Life Scout for a very long time.

He completed his Eagle Leadership Service Project and EBOR about a month before he turned 18.

Just about everything else that could be done to meet the requirements had been done.

He had served as the SPL for his Troop two years before the BOR.

While he hadn't been very active with his Troop, he had:

Served on Staff at the National Jamboree.

Served as Vice-Chief Administration for three years in the lodge.

Go on the Philmont Trail Crew.

Served as Section Secretary for our OA Section.

Captained the HS Soccer Team.

Acted in two school plays.

Been a member of the HS Track Team and choir.

Joined Sea Scouts.

Taken his SAT's (Twice!!)

Served on Summer camp staff (Twice).

Learned to drive and passed his driving test.

Got a job.

Got a girl friend.

Dealt with his mother having cancer.

 

The Eagle Scout rank is NOT A Troop award it belongs to the individual.

If "In the 12 month period before your Eagle Board of Review serve actively in your troop, and serve at least 6 months in a POR approved by your SM." Were to be added -Clearly he would never have made it.

Much as we might like to see Troops hold on to the older Boy Scouts, it isn't always possible.

In the Troop OJ was in the main focus seems to be meeting the needs of the new and younger Scouts. The leadership has no idea of catering to the needs of old Scouts and there isn't the numbers for a Venture Patrol.

So while a requirement like this might work for a 14 year old, it is never going to fly for many of the older Scouts who are so darn busy.

I don't know how the heck they manage to get so much done.

OJ leaves the house before 7:00 AM for School and at times doesn't get home till gone 6:00 PM!!

Once he had made up his mind to complete the project, the big problem was just finding time to fit it in.

Ea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[frank10]

I'd like to see a required post-eagle service. They all stand up there at their COH and comit to the Eagle charge to give back and run for the door.

 

It's kinda like curing lepers, your lucky to see one of ten come back.

[anarchist]

Ah come on Eamonn,

 

"deathbed" is just a tongue in cheek way of saying the boys get their Eagle just before aging out...Hopefully while staying at least somewhat active in the troop...

 

Frankly, as I said in the distant past, I would rather have Life scouts active in our program and then "Eagle out" on the eve of their eighteenth birthday than have a 14 y.o. Eagle that we never see again -after his ECOH...The first scout must be having fun in our program; the latter is either just punching his resume ticket...or what?...( the same program failed him...hummm?)

 

Interstingly enough, Last night we had a troop COH and our SPL turned over the "keys" to his ASPL because he turned 18 on the 25th of January...His Eagle S.M. conference was held at 7 P.M. on the 24th...less than perfect? Perhaps, but the boy has been "in the troop" with usual expected lapses for High school sports, band, etc... I am particularly proud of him 'cause he was one of "my boys" way back when I was a wolf/bear/webelos leader...so I do not begrudge him his "deathbed eagle"...not one darn bit...the program was for him...not for the troop leaders, and as far as I am concerned he gave back as much as he has recieved by having fun and staying active!

 

"Eagle" is not the point of the program...it is a nice place to hang your hat for a while...but it is just another "place" along the way of a (hopefully) bigger journey...

 

Anarchist

[Eamonn]

Anarchist

I agree with just about everything you posted.

My problem with the "Deathbed" thing is that it comes off sounding very judgmental.

I see my role as an adult in this organization as serving the Scouts and doing what I can to help this organization meet its aims.

I don't serve anyone if I cut corners or cheat. In fact I'd be guilty of a disservice. I'm happy to work within the rules and the requirements.

Sad as it maybe if a Scout needs to meet a requirement that takes six months to meet and he is over 17 1/2. He isn't going to make Eagle Scout rank.

Eagle Scout is a very personal thing. It belongs to the person who has earned it. Some very young Scouts, see it as a goal they want to reach as quickly as they can.

I have read that the average age of an Eagle Scout is now 14 years old. I don't know if this is true or not?

If a Lad of 14 has made becoming an Eagle Scout a goal and has met the requirements? I say more power to him.

But in my opinion it's a lot harder for Lads who wait to reach the goal due to the fact that as they get older they get involved in a lot more and take on more responsibilities.

I also feel that these older Scouts have more ownership of the goal. Younger Scouts might see reaching the goal as a way of pleasing others? Older Scouts are moving toward being independent and some of them no longer feel the need to have the approval of adults.

One reason why OJ held back was that he seen a Scout that was in his Den in Cub Scouting become an Eagle.

The Lad's Dad is the Scoutmaster. Dad is a very nice fellow, sadly the Lad is just not a very nice kid. He is a bully,always seems to be in trouble at school and in front of the local JP and very vocal about how much he disliked Scouts! When he became an Eagle Scout, OJ said to me that if they give it to him they will give it to anyone and it's meaningless.

OJ and I had several long chats about what being an Eagle Scout really is and what it means. I might have been guilty of giving him the odd prod! Her Who Must Be Obeyed had bought all the plates and napkins and wanted to empty the cupboard. (We haven't had the COH, due to her being ill and she is hoping that her hair will be back in time for the ceremony which is planned for mid April.) So she may have pushed.

As his Skipper,I did sit in the back of the room when he went for the BOR.

I was very proud of my kid. There in his white Sea Scout uniform. I'd sat on a lot of EBOR's and he did a wonderful job.

After I talked with the guys who were on the board. They commented on how nice it was to be able to have a mature conversation with a Scout who knew what he wanted and where he was heading.

We all one day will head for a deathbed, but listening to OJ at that EBOR, he has a lot of things he wants to do before he goes to bed.

The term is derogatory and I find it abusive. It puts these Scouts who may or may not? Have worked their tails off to reach the goal.

I would hope that we never ever would want to put a Scout or young person down, let alone one who really might have overcome all sorts obstacles to reach his goal.

Just as we would never call a Scout a "Bonehead or worthless" I think this name calling is just plain wrong.

Ea.

[emb021]

Eamonn- your son is not the kind of scout being spoken of here. I see on your list a LOT of scouting activities.

 

The kind of 'scouts' being spoken of are those who have pretty much stopped any scouting activities, then come back 'at the last minute' to get their Eagle.

 

 

[mtm25653]

"The kind of 'scouts' being spoken of are those who have pretty much stopped any scouting activities, then come back 'at the last minute' to get their Eagle. "

 

But why were they gone? Do you know? Were they on a sports team that had games and practices on meeting night? (I know several scouts in our troop like that.) Were they working to save money for college? (Ditto) Were they taking an incredibly hard school schedule (like the 5 AP courses my son and several of his agemates in the troop did last year-they all started college with enough credit to be sophomores)

 

Were they applying what they had learned in scouts in "real life" - their sports teams, work or school?

 

I have had 2 of what you would call "deathbed eagles" and I too find the term offensive. My last son plans to get his eagle in the next year, when he's 16, but he has also decided to try to graduate high school a year early, so he has to complete 2 extra classes (English and Math). And he plays basketball and soccer. And he's working at camp and going to Philmont. He thinks he can do all of those things in the next year. But if not, he will finish school, then do his Eagle project, and get his Eagle shortly before his 18th birthday. Which of his goals in the next 12 months should he put off, so they he can avoid being a what you call "deathbed eagle"?

[jr56]

I feel that any boy who has the dedication to complete his Eagle should be commended, sadly, no matter what the circumstances, there always seems to be somebody to criticize the accomplishment. He's too young, he's a "deathbed eagle", he hasn't been around the troop much lately, etc. Just congradulate them for a job well done, and realize that whatever motivated the individual to achieve the rank, he did it, and shut up and move on.

[Hunt]

The problem I have with boys who return at the 11th hour to finish up Eagle after a long absence is with the demands they place on the troop and its leadership. They often need people to mobilize quickly to help them get a project approved and done before it is too late, and MBCs have to rush around to get those last badges done. I think this is a lot to ask from a boy who has been checked out for a lengthy period of time. Of course, we've had to do that same kind of rushing around for boys who were active in the troop but still needed to do a project and badges just before turning 18, but I can't help feeling differently about them.

[red feather]

What timing for this thread.

 

During our councils Klondike I had the opportunity to talk with another adult leader that is very active in scouting and fully supports it. During our talks I asked him if he was a scout and he told me yes and had earned his Life rank but not his Eagle and was still bothered about it. (after 20 yrs or so)

 

Turns out that he had to help support his family as a youth and aged out. He told me that he tried to earn his Eagle just before aging out and had completed all his merit badges, project and all other requriments except being active for the almost 2 yrs before turning 18.

 

He was still upset about the treatment that he received when circumstances allowed him to continue in his scouting trail that he was not allowed to, being told he had not been active enough.

 

While we may agree that this is a travesty of what we try to teach scouts, it happens. Personally I would rather have a scout earn his Eagle at the last moment and have it be something that he can be proud of in the coming years.

 

Some Eagles are soaring when they earn it, some are flapping. Many of the 'flapping' Eagles later soar as they have the opportunity.

 

I have sat on many EBORs and am always amazed in the difference between the 14/15 yr old candidate to the 16/17 yr old. The 16/17 aged candidates have a much greater grasp of what Eagle means and have a fuller understanding of the concept.

 

If a scout comes to me with the intent to complete his Eagle at the last moment, I hope that I will do all that is possible to have it come to pass. To have this 'failure' last throughout the scouts life when something could have been done to allow the young man to complete something that will last his entire life is not a rock that I wish to carry.

 

Indeed there are some scouts that at the last minute are just trying to get a ticket punch. That is okay, while flapping now they just might be getting ready to soar as they gain life experiences and reailize what they earned.

 

Some Eagles soar, some flap. They all need to have the chance to soar.

 

just my thoughts

 

yis

 

 

 

[Hunt]

"If a scout comes to me with the intent to complete his Eagle at the last moment, I hope that I will do all that is possible to have it come to pass."

 

Well, I will too. But if it's guy who checked out two years ago, and it's three months until his birthday, etc., inside I'll be grumbling. As I've said elsewhere, I would still prefer that he do it at the last minute than that he not do it at all, even after a long hiatus, but I do think he should realize that he's asking a lot of the others who will have to help him.

[Lisabob]

We have a couple of scouts whom others might characterize as "deathbed Eagles." One of these boys hadn't been active in the troop in at least a couple of years, though he would show up from time to time. I'm sure he has a busy life (what teen doesn't these days?) but he wasn't known for being particularly active in school or his community and he defintiely wasn't in a position where he had to work to support his family. So I don't know what he was up to rather than scouting. He did come back this fall, shortly before his 18th birthday, to do his service project. He passed his Eagle BOR and I think he may have attended 1 or 2 meetings since then. Now he's an adult (well in the BSA's eyes anyway). Nobody in the troop expects to see him anymore and if he did show up most of our younger scouts wouldn't know who he is.

 

Is this a deathbed Eagle? Maybe. But then I don't know what this young man was like when he was active in the troop because that was a couple of years ago, before my son joined. Apparently he had been active and fulfilled everything except for the service project requirement at that time. Then again maybe he just slid through doing the bare minimum even then. In the first case, people who call this young man a "deathbed" Eagle in the disparaging sense might be misguided - after all, he may have made significant leadership contributions to the troop when he was a life scout at age 14/15/16, and newer troop members just aren't aware of that. In the second case, the fault lies more with the adult leadership, esp. the SM, who allowed this boy to slide on through for such a long time without any serious thought or effort. Boys will rise to the level of expectations we set for them.

 

We have another boy who is a life scout now, and his 18th birthday is looming. He's working to finish his Eagle requirements in time. Some leaders in the troop have privately made comments about this boy also becoming a "deathbed" Eagle, or somehow being undeserving. In part because he waited until he was 17 to go from star to life to (perhaps) Eagle. Also because this boy was registered but inactive in another troop for about a year, had quit scouting altogether for another year or so, and then joined our troop at the age of almost 17 with the expressed desire to earn Eagle. Since joining our troop he has been active most of the time, except during marching band season (this is a graded activity in school and he plans to go on to music school for college, so it matters a lot to him). He is seeking opportunities to work with our newest scouts as a guide or instructor. He's a good role model and an all-around nice kid. Oh and by the way he served his previous troop as SPL - twice - prior to becoming inactive. Should he make Eagle, some will call him a "deathbed" Eagle in the disparaging sense because he waited so long and took a hiatus from scouting. Personally I think the fact that he made the choice to come back and to focus on scouting again after such a long break is admirable. It shows me he values scouting and that he has the maturity to understand that leaving a thing undone can have a lasting impact.

 

By the way, he's already talking about how he can "give back" to scouting as a soon-to-be adult. His first thought: he wants to sign on as a music merit badge counselor, something we have very few of in our district.

 

I don't know whether the boy in the first case will proceed from flapping to soaring because I don't know him well and have no idea how he perceives himself, or how that may change as he matures further. I'm pretty sure the boy in the second case will be gliding along soon enough. I hesitate to label either of them "deathbed" Eagles.