BOR Questions...a little long

[joeleeper]

I am an ASM with my sons Troop. My son had a BOR last night for 1st Class. When he returned from the BOR (held in the Church, Scout Hut is out in Parking lot) he was very upset.

He said he had failed the BOR. He said the reasons were that the Board, one Committee member specificly, asked him Oath, Law, favorite knot, then asked him to tie a bowline around his waist and he could not tie it, then we was quized on first aid and CPR specificly. The one Board memmer asked him about the A,B,C,D (?) of CRP which he was not clear on. (I know Airway, Breathing, Circulation, ? what is D for?)

My son was told it is important to know but that it is not in his Scout Book.

After deliberation, the Board advised my son that some boys were not ready to advance yet and he should try back in a few weeks.

I know being the parent I am taking a little different look at this, but isn't the BOR, when declining advancement required to give the Scout specific items to improve on and set a specific date for another attempt?

My son may not have been as prepared as he should have been though he did study all weekend. And I know, as I said, I may be over-reacting, but my son does not have a clear and specific knowledge of why he was not approved for advancement or what to do next.

You thoughts are appreciated..

 

Joe Leeper

joe-leeper@comcast.net

[SemperParatus]

The BOR is not a retest of the advancement requirements.

 

The Board needs to provide your son with a written statement of the specific reasons for his not being passed. On the next BOR, those items should be the only ones that the BOR needs to address.

 

[Hunt]

Were these requirements signed off in your son's book? Who signed them off? As Semper notes, a BOR is not supposed to retest completed requirements. There should be no need for a boy to "study" for BOR at all, if he's already fulfilled all the requirements.

I would say that chances are about 9 out of 10 that the BOR in your troop is improperly retesting, and needs to be educated. The other 1 chance is that your son confessed to them that he really doesn't know how to tie a bowline and doesn't know the CPR in the 1st class requirement.

While what this BOR did is bad, the one factor that makes it less bad than it could be is the invitation to try back in a few weeks--some troops that pull this retesting and failure nonsense make boys wait months until the next regularly scheduled BOR.

[OldGreyEagle]

It is with not just a little trepidation I post this, since I admit it is copied. But its the BSA explanation of what a Board of Review is, or rather what its supposed to be

 

A periodic review of the progress of a Scout is vital in the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Scouting program in the unit. The unit committee can judge how well the Scout being reviewed is benefiting from the program. The unit leader can measure the effectiveness of his or her leadership. The Scout can sense that he is, or is not, advancing properly and can be encouraged to make the most of his Scouting experience.

 

Not only is it important to review those Scouts who have learned and been tested for a rank, but also to review those Scouts who have shown no progress in their advancement over the past few months.

 

The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review:

 

To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank.

To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit.

To encourage the Scout to progress further.

 

The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting ideals. Scout spirit is defined as living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in a Scout's everyday life. The board should make sure that good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community.

 

 

I post this as a resource to joeleeper so he can see what the official policy is, those who object to cutting and pasting I offer my most humble apology, but I don't see discussing an issue without having the specific BSA wording available

 

[evmori]

A BOR is not a retest of the Scouts skills! Wait! A bunch of other posters posted the same thing! I love it when we agree!

 

I could understand maybe not passing him if he didn't know the Oath & Law. But not for being unable to tie a bowline around his waist (not a requirement) and not knowing something that he never learned is wrong. Time to have a face to face with the board & find out what's going on!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[bbng]

...but my son does not have a clear and specific knowledge of why he was not approved for advancement or what to do next.

 

Joe, I'm going to follow up on OGE's post with a paragraph from page 30 of the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book:

 

"If the board decides that the Scout is not ready to advance, the candidate should be informed and told what he has not done satisfactorily. Most Scouts accept responsibility for not completing the requirements properly. The members of the board of review should specify what must be done to rework the candidate's weaknesses and schedule another board of review for him. A follow-up letter must be sent to a Scout who is turned down for rank advancement, confirming the agreements reached on the actions necessary for advancement. Should the Scout disagree with the decision, the appeal procedures should be explained to him."

 

It seems to me that your son would perfectly within his rights to ask the SM when he will receive his letter so that he may be prepared for the next BOR. Also, if he wasn't given a follow-up date, he should have that now too. The reason I suggest your son follow through is that this gives him ownership of his Scouting goals. I don't read in your post that there was any hostility or mean-spiritedness, so I can only think this is an uneducated group that performed the review. Your son taking the time to learn the process and following through by asking for his letter and follow-up BOR shows that he is taking responsibility and listening to the board.

 

Good luck to you both. BORs are not intended to upset a Scout but to encourage them to meet their goals while evaluating the program rather than the Scout. Please keep us up to date on how things are resolved.(This message has been edited by bbng)

[acco40]

Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting ideals. Scout spirit is defined as living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in a Scout's everyday life. The board should make sure that good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life.

 

OGE, I agree wholeheartedly with the above. But, what to do with a BOR (committee) that simply states that if the SM signs off on the "Scout Spirit" req. that is proof enough and they don't take on the responsibility stated above?

[joeleeper]

I agree that the BOR should not retest. The Scout was tested by the SM when the requirements were signed off.

The Scout (my son) does know the Oath and Law.

 

BBNG, thank you, that is good advice. I will explaine it to my son and let him proceed with calling the SM and inquiring about the letter. Thank you.

 

As far as I know, the Board is looking at this as he needs a complete BOR again..? but as I have read, and has been stated here, the BOR should only be on what he needed improvement on...but without anything written, who knows what that could be..

 

And what is the D in the A,B,C,D's of CPR? as ?I stated I know the A,B,C's and took the CPR course at summer camp, but do not remember a D???

 

Thank you,

 

Joe Leeper

joe-leeper@comcast.net(This message has been edited by joeleeper)(This message has been edited by joeleeper)

[anarchist]

joeleeper,

sorry this will be long and 'dry'

 

Not to start a fire storm here, but your troop committee needs to sit everyone down (who will be sitting boards, anyway) and teach them what a BoR is about and drill it home that it is not a re-test!

 

That said, Monday night I sat a BoR for first class that ran 45 minutes! We always start asking the boys to recite the law oath and outdoor code...which this boy did poorly...

 

but 35 of those minutes were consumed by silence and yawns (the candidates'). The board asked questions and got nothing back, almost all answers were I don't "remember", or single words...example -question; "in learning lashes you tried several different lashes, how many different lashes did you use for your camp gadget?" answer: one.............................................yawn"

BoR "Which one?" Answer; "square"........................

BoR "what was your gadget?" Answer; "tripod".............

BoR "what did you use the gadget for?" Answer; "...I forget"...........

 

change tack....

BoR "we see you had to learn about first aid for first class, what did you find interesting?" Answer; "I don't know..................." BoR; "well, you learned about heart attacks, why is that important?" Answer; "yawn,.........umm, well for first aid and stuff...........yawn."

BoR; "what are some reasons thats it's important for you to know how to identify a heart attack?" Answer;"..............................................yawn" CC (somewhat laughingly); "are we keeping you awake?" Answer; "no........I, forgot your question...."

 

It was truely 'breath-taking'... in the amount of "pulling" the board tried to do to get a conversation going, we even double-checked to see if a SM conference had been done....(due to a work committment the prior week, the SM was unavailable, and an ASM did the Conference...). We asked the boy to "go find" the SM and return.

 

All four BoR members agreed without any hesitation that something was "wrong"....the boy was not prepared for the BoR (more?). The Board gave a long list (to the boy), almost every question we had asked so he could "prepare" for next week... including taking a nap (in a light hearted way)

 

The SM was allowed to conference with the boy (damage control? -additional instruction) but was asked to return to the BoR for a chat... We were surprised to hear that the boy when sent to find the SM answered "how did it go?" with; "fine - no problems". We also asked him to reconference with the boy (and to also be prepared for a discussion the following night at the Troop committee meeting).

 

Meanwhile, the boys father was downstairs having a real problem with the "rejection". He left before the meeting was over, taking his two boys and did not show (he is a new committee member this year) the following night for the meeting.

 

I go into to this to 'show' that in this case the boy was "clueless" as to why it went badly...he thought there was "no problem"...while the board thought he was the least prepared 1st class candidate we had ever seen....His father seemed to feel we were being unfair but I don't know why (as yet).

When his father has time to digest this it will be interesting to hear what he heard from his son...

 

I am not saying your son is not being truthful...but there are "sides" here, at least two of them , if not three or four. And what perspective we have on what was asked varies...some times a single question becomes ten...

 

In our case we did give a date but we also requested the SM conference with the boy...and we will "postpone" until he feels the boy is ready.

 

Tuesday night was a real pip...,we all seemed to agree the "yawns" were an attempt to cover a case of the nerves, The ASM who did the SM conference admitted the boy was marginal but was 'feeling' pushed by the young mans dad (to get him through before the younger brother asked for his Board)...ASM had to pry each answer and use leading questions...but hoped the boy would "get through". BTW-younger brother is a new scout, really into scouting and burning through the requirements while "our" candidate is in this third year, participates only when dad goes along or 'makes' him...ahhh, the webs we weave.....

 

So SM is "retraining" ASMs so we get no more "maybies", Committee is trying to figure how we can get through these without being psychologists and family counselors and..... we still have a scout to "get ready", who probably really doesn't want to be advancing (or in scouts?) I am not sure what the 'total' answer is but advancing and unprepared boy was not "it".

 

STORM TIME:

The easy answer (for your son and all scouts) is to be truly prepared for the Board. I know we are not to retest...but, if every boy was ready to be retested I wonder if there would be any problems? As most of you know I am one of the forum members who feel "if a boy is to learn a bowline for first class them he should at least remeber it long enough to pass the board", further, I feel scouting is cumulative, ergo; an Eagle candidate should know his first class skills, they are not learned to be forgotten...thats for school lessons.

just my ramblins

Anarchist

[FScouter]

The boy (or you) can respectfully ask the chairman of the BOR what page of the Boy Scout Handbook the boy can read about how to tie a bowline around the waist, and on what page can he learn about A,B,C,D. Then request the board reconvene in the next couple of days (BEFORE the court of honor) to review with the boy whether he did or did not meet the advancement requirements found in the Handbook.

[John-in-KC]

Two tricks of the trade I've used as a CC:

 

First, I never tell a Scout he's failed his BOR. If it's that obvious something is awry, I shift the discussion to "being prepared" ... and then I ask if we honestly need to adjourn the Board for a time (a day, a week, two weeks)...

 

Second, if the BOR is going South, I have put the board in to "Executive Session" and gotten ahold of the parent. Sometimes, talking 1 on 3 with grownups can just be intimidating. Other times, the Scout may be tired out from other activities, and his mind has clicked off. Either way, the Board needs feedback from the parent.

 

For the original poster, there is always the option of contacting the UC or the District Advancement Chairman and asking for help in teaching HOW TO RUN A BOR!!!

 

You just have to work at this stuff for their sake!

[LongHaul]

John-in-KC,

      Is it really that.Im stuck for the right word here, do I use bad, traumatic, unproductive, discouraging? Why are so many leaders troubled by telling a youth they failed at something? It happens in our school systems with the pass/fail concept. No grades making one student better than the next. I see it on Troop committees when they approve (A whole nuther problem) a PLCs proposed yearly calendar. We dont want they boys to get in over their heads and fail. Leaders will jump in and do it for them rather than sit back and watch a project just fall apart, then use it as a learning experience. Why use circuitous measures to avoid telling a boy he is not ready to advance? Building character includes preparing him for the real world , doesnt it? LongHaul

[John-in-KC]

Some thoughts here:

 

There are definitely places to "win" and "lose:" WAR is one. Nation-states fates hang on winning or losing wars. Athletics is another. Most games have scoring systems.

 

The premise I understand of "The Game with a Purpose" is Scouting is a PROCESS, not a series of EVENTS. I want the youth to learn from every experience he has, whether it's successfully pitching his tent the first time, cooking his own kebab over the fire, doing the bowline, or selling someone on an Eagle Leadership Service Project.

 

I'm also, by training and profession, a soldier: While I believe in individual responsibility, the LEADER is responsible for all which happens or fails to happen. In a Scouting context, that places oversight responsibility on adults. The youth, through the patrol method and the boy-run troop, design and execute the program. The adults are there, to be in an "oversight" role.

 

The issue here is designing the consequences. The action is the youth meeting with adults, as part of our structured Scouting program. The POSITIVE outcome, if the youth is ready, is he advances. The NEGATIVE outcome, if the youth is not ready, is he doesn't advance TODAY.

 

Think for a second about planning the food for a campout. If the cooks and grubmaster don't plan hot drinks on a cold winters day, the patrol has lots of chattering teeth. That's an OK consequence. If, however, in spite of layering, appropriate heating fires, and head coverings, a Scout's shivering moves from teeth chattering towards his losing control of his voluntary muscles, that's a NOT OK consequence, and it's time for leaders to intervene.

 

Involving the youth in that negative consequence, getting him to buy into the consequence, has great learning value. I work in a think tank. Lots of what we do is collaborative in nature. We contribute more when we're part of the process.

 

That's how I've come to approach this. Bottom Line: I want to have every tool available to me to help the young man grow up to take his station in society. I have him in Scouting, maybe only for a year or two, maybe for seven. I want him to leave Scouting so that 20 years later, he's more than willing to bring his own son back to the movement.

 

Your question implied you wanted more than me telling you the time; so you got how I build the clock factory

 

YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Hunt]

I'd like to agree and disagree with anarchist's post. Agree: in the scenario you describe, I totally agree that the boy in question was not "ready" for his BOR. In that case it had less to do with whether the requirements had been signed off or not, but with his attitude. Disagree: I think skills are only retained if they are used. I see no value in penalizing a boy if he forgets how to do something that he's had no occasion to use (in my mind, that would be more like school lessons). Knots are a prime example--if the troop is doing activities that call for knot-tying, great--but I don't like the idea of boys sitting around practicing knots so they can pass their BORs.

[evmori]

Building character includes preparing him for the real world, doesnt it?

 

Yes it does! And in the real world, we don't always get what we want! And sometimes, we actually have to produce results!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10