desertrat77

Matt, I think the key thought here is that you were in training. It's an artificial environment, heavy on procedure, protocol, instilling the right principles, etc. Which is alright, it's by design, and necessary to a point. Outside of training? We are back in the real world. Wear the uniform as you think best. I say that because your uniform is sharp and no doubt you set a good example. In fact, these days, I rarely see a uniform as squared away as yours. PS In the BSA, we have adults who love all of the minutia pertaining to Official Uniform Wear. The Uniform Guide isn't a guide to them, it's holy writ. That's their hobby horse, and we strive to be kind to them as they pursue their quest, and stay off their radar to the best of our ability.

Yes indeed. Even within branches, there are variations. Different leadership, different perspectives and nuances.

Stosh, I understand and respect your points of view. Also, good point re the advancement requirements. Some scouters just relish splitting hairs, turning the trail to Eagle into a big snipe hunt. Discourages many good scouts from even bothering with advancement.

This is true! I've seen beading ceremonies start out simple, and then asst QM for the course feels compelled to say a few words, even though she wasn't part of the original script. Her comments prompt a WBer who went to the same course but was in another patrol to make his way to the stage and commence to telling stories that never seem to end. Then the course director from two years ago comes forward and talks about the impact WB has had on scouting. Meanwhile, the person receiving the beads stands there, smiling and nodding politely, whilst wearing the official course songbook on a string attached to his belt loops (true story), holding a homemade bugle/horn made of PVC pipe (another story), etc. No doubt all of this is meaningful to the WBers. But it is best reserved for the private dining room at the local buffet restaurant, where it can be enjoyed by those closest to the experience.

Stosh, I'll bite. This is a "it depends" situation. I organized many ceremonies during my career. Changes of command, 9/11 commemorations, memorials for fallen troops, retirements, promotions, reveille, retreat. Attended and participated in many more. Some were in deployed locations with foreign dignitaries and troops present. One thing I learned right away: people love to point out mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes are legit, and the feedback is right on and deserved. Other mistakes aren't really mistakes, but personal preferences that have morphed into thou-shalts. Yet another category is just plain nit picking. At the end of each ceremony, I always made myself available for the folks that wanted to amble by and let me know the honor guard screwed up a particular movement, or that the narrator mispronounced "singularly" or one of the firing team members was out of step, etc. In most instances, I let them have their say, and thanked them for their feedback. For the perpetual nit pickers in the wing, I'd offer them a slot on the honor guard, or the opportunity to plan/organize/execute the next ceremony. So back to the case at hand. Let's say the entire ceremony was done respectfully, solemnly, and well, aside from the issue of flag order at the end. If the police officer/Marine vet had spoke to me, I would not have been embarrassed. I would have thanked him for his attention to detail, and said we'll do better next time. I love our nation's flag. But we cannot turn each flag ceremony into an up-tight situation where every little mistake is pounced upon. People are funny. If they are constantly criticized over every error, they'll do fewer ceremonies. Or none at all. Then the flag is sitting in a desk drawer. On the other hand, if the entire effort is characterized by sloppiness, smugness, carelessness, etc., I'll be the first to wire-brush somebody, and I won't care how hurt their feelings are. But a well-intentioned ceremony, with a few discrepancies? Just depends. If it's a clear cut violation of the code or service rules/customs, I'll provide some private, gentle feedback. If it's not, I learned after many years to just say "well, I wouldn't have done it that way, but Old Glory still flying."

I've been in a lot of flag ceremonies, and watched a bunch. As a scout, scouter, and throughout a 30 year military career. We should follow the code or rules/regulations to the best of our ability. However, every ceremony will have gray areas, or mistakes made. Respect is not only action, but also intent.

The key is indeed natural gravitation to their own patrols, and it will work as Stosh mentioned. On the other hand, when there is an official "new guy" patrol, it often turns into a "leper colony" that no one is happy with. The young scouts know they are in a holding pen. The guides/Leadership Corps/etc. that are assigned to train/mentor sometimes do so half heartedly, preferring to hang out with their same-aged pals elsewhere in the troop. So the new scouts tend to muddle through on their own. As a scout, my first patrol was mixed ages, and it worked well. I really looked up to the older kids. We moved, and my next patrol was a new guy patrol, and it stunk. Just a dumping ground for new scouts.

Eagle, I'm tracking with you, especially about the coffee! I've got a few pieces of fancy gear myself. I completely understand about your son's reaction to the lost bottle. Very true, probably a bit of homesickness, but it's interesting how near/dear these things are to kids and even adults. I've got a footlocker of stuff from my scouting days, and some of it is of no value aside from sentiment/nostalgia. On the other hand, a few years ago I misplaced my old Bobcat pin and on certain days, it have a twinge of pain thinking about it.

Sorry to hear that, Basement. I'll miss your insights and frankness. Thanks for all you do for the scouts, you've made a big difference. If our paths cross again, first round is on me.

Eagle, a great post all around, but I thought I'd highlight your points about DIY gear and shopping for bargains...spot on! The BSA, and the outdoor culture as a whole, promotes way too much "gucci gear." For example, most folks don't have canteens anymore, they have "hydration systems." For decades, scouts got along just fine with a basic steel or plastic canteen (or two). Today, we have more cost and complexity to do what? To get a drink of water. Plenty of trusty, solid gear from yesteryear out there. Buy it at the garage sales for song, and combine it with the blanket sleeping bags and the like that Eagle mentioned. Then mom/dad have more money in their pocket, and if Johnny loses his 99 cent surplus GI canteen (which you know darn well he will, at least once), well, it's not the end of the world.

There are many different ways to show respect to the flag. Moving around when I was in the military, one council (deep South) cut the flags along the stripes, and had each scout drop a stripe into the fire. Members of another council (midwest) were aghast, literally, when I mentioned this method to them. Interesting that if these two groups of folks got together, without knowing each other's opinion on flag retirement rites, they'd get along just fine. Good Americans, all of them. Our flag rites are important and solemn. But as with all rites, there will be variations between communities. As cyclops mentioned, respect is the key. Ken's grommets on the string: I have no problem with that. Fifty years from now, several of those scouts will still have their grommets from that ceremony in their footlocker, along with their first eye splice rope and a lopsided basket they made their first year at camp. Powerful memories.

Did someone say refreshments?

Barry, I hope I didn't offend...my criticism was directed to the BOR members not to you.

I'm truly surprised and as well as disappointed to hear that earning a palm has turned into a big red tape exercise. For a BOR to disapprove a palm? Until now, I hadn't heard of such a thing. Eagles that stick with the program after attaining the rank are darn good scouts anyway, and as previously mentioned, usually working in some capacity, be it ASPL/QM, or JASM or pseudo ASM. By this point, in my opinion, the Eagle is meeting the leadership requirement, or has enough banked goodwill from the past. Turning the palm process into a goat rope sounds like a power play by adults, and a good way to disappoint or push away an Eagle. At the end of the day, they earned Eagle. No palms or 10, it doesn't matter. The palms are gravy.

Griffsmom, thanks for the additional insights, and I agree with your perspectives. Sounds like the SM views the palms as another rank or hoop to jump through. I haven't seen this dynamic except in recent years. In the past, if the scout was still a member in good standing, and had the right number of MBs, the palm was awarded.

CChoat, congratulations! Calico is much more articulate and polite about this than I. I concur with what he said, particularly the "small and short" ceremony. Now for the Desertrat edition: I have witnessed too many overly-long and self-indulgent beading ceremonies. At courts of honor, district roundtables, etc. Against my will, held hostage in the audience. On and on they go, critter songs, inside jokes, every staff member feeling compelled to make their own lengthy remarks, waxing more and more eloquent, with no end in sight.... Please save the "director's cut" for a WB friends/family private event. If it is any where else, the old phrase is so true, "Less is More" and applies to any ceremony, be it WB, Eagle, or striking the colors at summer camp.

I agree with the previous thoughts...by this time, the scout has a record of leadership in the troop, and he's still sticking with the program. He's also busy getting good grades and prepping to go to college or the next stage in life, whatever it might be. So he may not be there as often as he was in the past. As Twocubdad said, use the ambiguity to the benefit of all concerned.

Basement, well said. And welcome back.

Cyclops, What Stosh said, and welcome!

I'm happy things worked out. Also happy that you came here to vent. As you said, better here than a troop meeting. That's the benefit of the forum. Hope to see you around in the future.

Seattle, LOL! I hope the OP will return.

David, I have no doubt your leadership method works well. But we aren't all wired that way. We each have our own style. The parental dynamics of each unit is different as well. Your parents seem to be friendly and close knit. When I was a SM, the parents were all over the map. A few were cooperative. Many uncommitted. Several flat-out hateful. There is a difference between this forum and a troop. We're here to share ideas and vent, as leaders or parents or both. Information sharing. At the unit level, it's about the scout progressing and growing. My personal belief is that Johnny Scout will not get the full scouting experience if the SM and his parents have an air-tight safety net underneath him, and attend to his every need. I may be wrong, but that's how I came up, and how I conducted business as an adult scouter. Long before the internet, the adult scouters in my troop would repair to the desert for a weekend, about once every two months. Just the adults, no scouts, not an official BSA event. We'd eat giant steaks cooked over mesquite coals, drink beer, and smoke cigars around the campfire. Maybe we'd talk about scouting, maybe we wouldn't. It was an opportunity to relax and reflect. This forum is the next best thing.

Well said.

It's true, we are products of our upbringing and environment. If I measured the total amount of time my parents talked to my six different SMs, four different troops (we were a military family), added up, it might equal one hour. Probably less. From when I was 11 till I turned 18. The conversations went like this: "How are you doing?" "Great." "Need help driving to the camporee?" "Yes, we need someone with a truck." "Okay, you got it." "Thanks." The end. Parents drive away, Johnny joins his patrol, SPL gives direction to the PLs, SM watches and listens from afar. That went for other scouts too, unless there was a major issue, such misbehavior that might result in legal issues or expulsion from the troop. That meeting might have lasted a hour. But certainly not a demanded sit-down about administrative issues with Johnny's handbook. The Disgruntled Mom/Dad Club will steal your time and sanity. I wasn't rude or unprofessional with them, but firm boundaries had to be set. After everyone left, and I went home, a nice cold beer sure seemed to make things better.

For me, it's both. Two grown and gone and one still at home, in a venture crew. My philosophy for their collective activities has been: Meet/greet their leaders at the beginning. Figure out my role as a parent. Then get out of the way. I let their coaches coach, and their scout leaders lead. For good or ill. All three kids have had a wide range of teachers, coaches, scout leaders, and youth ministers, ranging from outstanding to awful. I keep tabs on how things are going by talking with the kid. I only step in if things are really, really screwed up. Like life or limb. I taught my kids that their success is dependent on their ability to listen, figure out problems, and learn to work with/for difficult adults and scouts. There have been some tough moments when there has been injustice, inefficiency, etc, that I sorely wished to step in and say "what the....?" But I didn't. I love my kids but I did not/cannot resolve every injustice they face in life. They have to figure some things out for themselves, be resilient, stay with the program, press forward, turn the page. If I had to speak to a coach/leader/etc., it was always just a few minute chat in private. I respect their time, and they need the space and flexibility to lead without committee of parents questioning every little thing they do. I'm involved, and support the crew, team, teachers, etc. But only to a point. When my kids turned 18 and left the house, I wasn't going along to sweep their path. They learned to do that years earlier. So back to the case at hand. Two thoughts to clarify: 1. There is a big difference between a curious new parent and a parent who just loves to chew out the SM. I knew the difference between the two. The new parents and I would chat, the parents said "aha" and then let their scout proceed down the scouting trail. On the other hand, during my ASM/SM days, there was a Greek chorus of shrill moms that just lived to loudly pounce on the scout leaders for every reason. An hour long meeting is just what they wanted...not to understand, but to endless criticize and harp on ever little thing that happened to Johnny, real or perceived. That was their MO in life, and I had to set boundaries with them. 2. The trail to Eagle is a solo one. Yes, there are parents and scouters and peers that assist Johnny along the way. But Johnny has to climb the trail himself. He has to fall and sprain his ankle. Take side trails that are fruitless. Sit and shoot the breeze while the clock ticks and others pass him by. But in all instances, Johnny must be the one to solve the problem, pick himself up, and continue. Wherever he finishes, it will be HIS accomplishment, something he earned. PS The scouts are smarter than we give them credit for. If Johnny wants to advance, he'll figure it out. If he's confused, he can ask his PL. He's not a cub any more. He's a scout. Those first years he'll waste time not advancing, eat cold oatmeal seasoned with ash from the campfire, sleep in a poncho because he forgot his sleeping bag, leave his canteen behind at the last rest stop, etc. All part of the plan. They catch on quick if they are allowed a safe environment to fail.