walk in the woods

So staff can wear a backpack water pump (i.e. simulated flame thrower) but kids can't use squirt guns because they are simulated fire arms?

In our council the popcorn prize was a super-soaker, two years ago.

Those arguments are already happening in the academy AZ, http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.full. Fetus, infants, infirmed, old, the more we dehumanize and devalue them the easier it is to eliminate them.

This is still true. I always find this discussion entertaining, watching people self-righteously pound their chests about how self-righteous other people are regarding knots.

In fairness if a youth becomes an OA member at 14 he not eligible for vigil until he's 17. At which point he's a year from leaving the program. So it's really no surprise now is it?

Crossover is a really clean date to move on. At every pack outing and event between now and then beat the drum a bit and offer to help until crossover. When that day comes move on with your son.

Technically the glass is always full, only the media filling it is different.

Or, the parent could just blow off the paperwork and go camping sans the BSA. Way too complicated an effort just to take a kid to camp. Maybe I'm just grouchy.

While I'll still stipulate to your statement about live births, why is that the only driving factor for the size of our audience?

OK. I'll stipulate to that. Target audience is the same size but membership is down 40%. Still an unpleasant picture.

Ultimately this debate has nothing to do with STEM Scouts or Learning for Life or Exploring or traditional scouting. Ultimately, this debate is about the BSA's mission. Are we an outdoor adventure organization for youth or are we a youth development organization? The world has changed in the last 50 years. The definition of family has changed, the definition of community has changed, there have been multiple rounds of disruptive technologies come and go, politics have changed, the demographics of the country have changed, parenting styles have changed (heck, what we used to call parenting is now called free-range parenting or some such drivel). To assume the techniques and programs we used 50 years ago will still be effective today seems naïve. Yet it is the default position that many people take in the face of change. "We've been doing it this way for 100 years! The process isn't the issue, we just aren't working hard enough!" That works for a while but it won't last. Now don't get me wrong, we'll still catch boys with outdoor adventure and we should continue to offer the traditional programs. But, the US population has almost doubled in my lifetime, which one might assume doubles our total target audience, yet membership continues to decline. Down by roughly 40% in my lifetime. The business model isn't sustainable. The BSA as an entity has to do two things to survive, get people to consume more of their existing product and expand their product line to develop new customers. To exclude either is a mistake.

Well, now we have a problem because there can't be two of us!

That said, we do have operating experience with just this idea in the Venturing program. Crews basically define their own uniforms with the official field uniform being optional. Why couldn't we push that model down a level? I've only dealt with a few crews and they've mostly used the lack of field uniform as a recruiting tool.

A decent quality green 3-button shirt with collar devices for rank and position. Blue jeans for pants and a troop ball cap. Low entry cost and easy enough for indoor and outdoor. Gets a kid uniformed for under $50.

Hard for me to say, but sure, why not. As I understand it the projects start in the fall and are displayed the following summer. FWIW, here are the rules for my local county fair, http://web.extension.illinois.edu/dkk/downloads/47740.pdf. It's a long boring document but you can see they do have a wide variety of project options to choose from. I see the 4-H has also now has Special Interest (SPIN) clubs. There's a shooting sports version starting in my area for example. Kind of sounds like Venturing. But, back on topic, what does all this say about uniforming as a method? LC asked how to make uniforming a viable method, maybe the question we should ask is if uniforming is a positive differentiator for Scouting?

4-H certainly has some traditional values (Head, Heart, Hands, Health) but none of our membership restrictions. I understand the program starts at 8-years old but there is a K-2 program that is separate from the main program. But even with that, at least in our rural area, their draw is the program's relevancy. I'm not involved in the program but do know a number of kids that are and I lost some potential scouts a few years back because the parents asked them to choose between 4-H and BSA. The kids that participate have a very wide range of program opportunities to pursue. Go to your local county fair and you'll find 4-H kids in the livestock pens, horse shows, art, cooking, sewing, and performance art display areas. They have programs in citizenship and leadership and are expanding into science, robotics, etc. On top of that they operate camps for kids that pick up many of the same things that kids in scouts can do (archery, shooting, swimming, boating, climbing, etc.) 4-H creates a natural constituency for the FFA on the school side of the equation as the youth grow and seek other opportunities. No uniforms, no pressure to advance, more personal development focused broad-based program, good people, fewer meetings, and the resources of the extension service don't hurt. It's a solid 100-year old program.

FWIW, the videos have already been posted to the Autism and Scouting facebook page.

I'm sorry but I haven't had a chance to watch the videos yet. The link Bad Wolf provided is the same organization that I noted as well. I think there is a relationship between how profoundly a child is affected because, if for no other reason, the parents have to get over their denial faster that parents of children that are more NT. That said, there are plenty who never get over their denial and simply disengage. Unfortunately, my experience is it is usually the father. the thing that goes unmentioned too often with the parents, and the reason you get the tears @@BDPT00, is that by the time their boy is boy scout age they've already been engaged full time, for 8 or 9 years, in the fight for services, fights with the schools for accommodations, arrogant comments from people in restaurants telling them they need to discipline their child better or leave, child-rearing experts who can't spell autism telling them their kid is just a picky eater and if he went to bed hungry a few times he'd get over it, fearful that every time the phone rings that their boy had a meltdown at school, etc. Being always on guard/on watch makes one suspicious of about everybody.

Yep. White shirt, black pants, tie are also part of the FFA uniform. But, all those things, once purchased, are multitaskers.

Yep, me too. On both the personal and willing to help front. There's a group on facebook called Autism and Scouting that has done some good work in putting together training. Mostly scouters with kids on the spectrum. They also adapted the IEP concept to scouting to help units work through some of the issues. I haven't seen their stuff in a while but it's a pre-built wheel for review.

Why were they trying to "fix" him. That may have been the first mistake.

This. Make room on the soap box. The biggest PITB I experienced over time are NT kids picking on those with special needs. Mine's 17 FWIW. I'll make an effort to review the videos when I have the time to dedicate to them.

! I was out there a couple years ago on a trip to DC. I bet my son that the trenches were probably still in place, much like a Civil War battlefield. He wasn't buying it. I had no real orientation to location so we didn't go look. Still a pretty place.

Eagledad, I'm going to challenge your statement just a little. I find that 13-14 year olds are more than happy to wear uniforms, basketball, baseball, football, soccer, FFA jackets, even drama club or band t-shirts. That goes for 13 - 14 and older for that matter. So, there's something about our uniforms that is different. I'd argue that ultimately it's a matter of where people put value, and people in this case is not adult leaders but rather the parents and the community in general. We've probably all seen parents drop $100 for a baseball uniform for one season and not want to purchase a BSA uniform. I never enjoyed wearing my uniform in public as a youth, nobody I knew cared for it. So I don't think this is a new issue. I'd argue for a good activity uniform (high-tec, small logo t-shirt that kids can wear for more than one purpose), maybe a necker large enough to be useful, and a reasonably priced pair of pants. You can get a pair of cargo pants and a UA t-shirt at basspro for $50 and the kids might wear them for stuff other than scouting before they grow out of them.

The 1977 Jamboree is pretty high on my list. I also remember the shows, eating buffalo for the first time, and cutting my finger open while whittling sitting out the rain in a tent! But, since Jambo77 is already taken second best memory is my ordeal. I may never forget being set down along the side of the trail and watching that torch walk off down the trail!