acco40

I agree. I know the counselor in question and I don't think it is a "creepy" issue but more of a control issue.

When a merit badge requirement (such as for Personal Fitness) states: Have your parent, counselor, or other adult take and record the following measurements do you feel the counselor has the authority to insist they take the measurements? Is that adding to the requirement?

SR450Beaver, I agree the only problem is that it isn't my meeting. As Scoutmaster, I'd be overstepping my bounds if I demanded that the committee move their meeting time. I've asked and will ask again.

My oldest son earned his AOL in February (2001) as a ten year old and joined a troop later that month. He went to every campout, fundraiser, service, etc. for the first year. He earned first class before his first year (not really that hard) and Life at the age of 12 years and 4 months. He was a Star when I became Scoutmaster and I got a few stares when he was a 12 year old Life Scout (you know his dad is the Scoutmaster after all, heh heh). Well, it didn't bother me because if anything, I made it harder, not easier for him to advance. Now fast forward to now and guess what, he is approaching his sixteenth birthday and dad is trying to get him to seriously begin his Eagle leadership service project. The prime motivation for him now is that his younger brother (by 19 months) has now earned more Eagle required merit badges than he has! Boys this age need some type of motivation (self, sibling, parent, peer, teacher, Scouter, etc.). Yes, I am saddened by those that don't follow the program closely enough and cut corners either by ignorance or worse, on purpose. We came back from summer camp and I noticed about four or five merit badges were "earned" that I was not to happy about. One Scout earned Environmental Science and he told me (and his dad confirmed) he did zero prerequisites prior to summer camp. I'd like to know how built and maintained an ecosystem for seven days duiring six days of summer camp. Another boy "earned" his canoeing merit badge and he wasn't a swimmer and didn't attend the class! But you know what, Scouts isn't a competition and I don't let these things bother me as much as I did in the past.

You have patches that make noise? How cool is that!

As luck would have it, my first year Webelos den had 12 Scouts. I assigned each a "law." Mark was cheerful. Zach was obedient, etc. To this day I see a face with each law! They easily remembered their name and soon what came before and after. Each meeting they would line up in order and the Scout law would appear. One thing I find interesting is that for Arrow of Light you have t orepeat from memory the Scout Oath and Law. However, to earn the Scout badge you don't have to memorize but "understand and agree to live by" the Scout Oath and Law.

Beavah, I respectfully disagree. There is nothing "new" about patrol formation. It should not be age based, it should not be mixed, it should be the choice of the Scouts. This was endorsed by LBP himself. What I have found to be the overwhelming desire of the boys is that they like to be in a patrol of their peers. Usually, that means boys of similar ages but not always. I also disagree with your conclusions. If you have mixed age patrols, there is no need for troop guides - thus less youth leadership. If you have a group of 11 to 12 year olds in a patrol, one of them gets blessed with a leadership experience (something all should get for 30 days if you follow the BSA program).

Adults look for different things than the boys. Good Qualities (adult list) 1. Lack of mosquitos 2. Good staff organization 3. Trading post that does NOT sell candy or pop/soda. 4. Bad (or better yet, non-existent) cell phone reception 5. Good programs for older Scouts 6. Experienced staff Good Qualities (youth list) 1. Fun staff 2. Climbing tower 3. Good food 4. Climbing tower 5. Easy merit badges 6. Climbing tower 7. Good fishing 8. Non-cranky adults

Gone to the birds? One of the great things about Scouting is that it expands ones horizons. Without Scouting, I would not have learned about curlews (one of the original patrols on Brown Sea Island?).

You mean like my youngest son and is cohort? How did you know??! Yeah, that can be a problem. When he was elected as SPL, we wait a week before he chooses his ASPL. Well, after we got home I told him of my desire for him to pick anyone except his infoamous cohort. Well you can guess what happened! I don't like to be heavy handed and don't have a great solution. The only thing I can think of is to start with them in different patrols.

SR450Beaver, on the surface, I agree with you 100% (Committee meetings should be open to all concerned parents and as a parent, I should be able to attend.) The only problem I have is like I mentioned before, our committee meetings coincide with our troop meetings (something I don't like). So, I should have stated that I prefer that the SAs stay with the boys and only one of the Scoutmasters/Assistant Scoutmasters - attend the committee meeting (it is usually me, the SM). Should SAs attend troop meetings? Yes. Should they be able to attend committee meetings? Yes. In our case, they can't attend both without cloning themselves. My preference is to have the majority of the SAs attend the troop meeting. Longhaul, I'm find my self waffling between your view (about 60% of the time) and SR450Beaver's view (about 40%) of the time. But since the committee meeting is not my meeting (I confer with the CC and he bounces the agenda off me in advance and he will happily put something on the agenda for me if I request it) I keep my mouth shut. Yes, I get frustrated when parents, who regularly don't attend things and question some of the things we do because they don't understand the BSA program (Why do the boys eat as patrols? Wouldn't it be much cheaper if the whole troop just ate the same thing? There would be less dishes too!) Sheesh. I seem to have to address that at least three times every year! However, patience isn't one of my best virtues. SR450Beaver, our troop is not quite as large (about 30 boys) and unfortunately, if a parent is not a registered leader (CM or SA) they rarely help out with anything! Not our troop policy but just a fact of life. Believe me, I would gladly welcome their support. But, when the parents just like to kibbutz, usually in a critical fashion, during committee meetings, I tend to lean toward Longhauls opinion (observe with your mouth shut!) However, when they ask good questions, especially if it is about something I or someone else should have communicated to them or their sons in a better fashion, I'm glad they spoke up, registered leader or not. Of course, it is better to err on the side of letting a few yahoos pop off than to exclude a parent that really has something to add. One thing that we do as a troop is have quarterly parent meetings. These are really no different than the troop committee meetings but we do ask for more parental participation during these meetings. Still, sadly, only about 50% of the families attend.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Who should assign Scouts to a patrol? The Scoutmaster? No. A committee member? No. The Committee Chair? No. The Scouts? Yes! A patrol should be a peer group, a group of boys that want to be together. In our troop, we have one patrol that is made up entirely of high school age boys. Two other patrol are 100% middle school boys. One is a mixture of middle school and high school freshman. That is how the boys wanted to form patrols. Our patrols had been set for about three years and were getting out of whack from a numbers perspective. Some patrols exceeding eight, some under four. Time for some shuffling. This is how we accomplished that task. I (SM) divided up the boys into four patrols. Publicly, I did this arbitrarily. In reality, I ranked the boys by age. No, the boys never quite figured that out. I then told them that they could shift to any patrol they wanted to with one stipulation. If one Scout left patrol "A" to go to a different patrol, a boy from another patrol had to enter patrol "A" to keep the numbers somewhat even. They took the full hour and a half to do some horse trading but it all worked out in the end. Usually, I get feedback from the older boys that they really don't want to be in a patrol with the younger boys. I also get feedback, not from the younger boys but from the younger boys parents that they want their sons to be in patrols with the older boys. Another way to look at it is this - let's say a patrol is made up of four newly crossed over Webelos Scouts, two first year Boy Scouts (2nd Class), one second year Star Scout and one third year Life Scout (13 years old). Who do you think would be the best patrol leader? Well, the oldest highest ranking Life Scout of course. That would be true when he reaches 14 ,15, 16 and even 17! So, those Webelos would have been in the troop for five years and never really got a chance for leadership? Not a good situation.(This message has been edited by acco40)

My son earned his Paul Bunyan Award and received received his Paul Bunyan Axe patch last evening. He was a little disappointed when I told him it did not go on his uniform (he already has the World Conservation patch sewn on his right pocket). My memory is foggy put aren't Scouts allowed to adorn their merit badge sash with numerous temporary patches on the back? I saw this reference on-line: (http://www.infinetivity.com/~blkeagle/sash.htm) Merit badges ONLY are worn on the FRONT of the sash. On the back of the sash, additional merit badges may be sewn and temporary insignia may be sewn. "Temporary insignia" is defined by the BSA as special insignia for participating in unit, District, Council or national events or programs. Previous rank, service stars and pins are NOT to be worn on the sash. Would a Paul Bunyan Axe patch qualify as something to wear on the back of the merit badge sash?

I'm a little hazy on an Eagle Court of Review. Can someone enlighten me?(This message has been edited by acco40)

First of all, when one uses the term China one needs to be very careful about whether the reference is to Taiwan, Hong Kong or "mainland" China. This is an article about Hong Kong (yes, I know it is a part of China.) While our western/capitalist ethics reflect the importance of the individual in our country, in communist China "society" holds the trump cards. Youth are celebrated who turn in their parents if their parents are breaking the law. That is their culture and I beg to pronounce that it is neither worse nor better than our culture, just different. Should Scouts in the US be expected to notify the proper authorities of a crime that they witness? Why not do the same in China? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

When I first joined the troop with my oldest son, I (as an SA) felt totally in the dark about the "vision" of the SM. The SM and one SA (there were about 5 SAs who showed up to most meetings) pretty much ran the show. When I became Scoutmaster, the first thing I did was hold a monthly (first Sunday evening of every month) Scoutmaster meeting. The SAs should really not attend troop committee meetings, that is the function of the SM. At our SM meeting, I make sure we present the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters "view" on the program and our concerns at to our troop committee. I also have the troop scribe present a quick synopsis of our PLC meeting and the troop quartermaster provide a quick review of supplies. Our troop committee meets at the same time as our troop meeting, something I don't relish.

As a youth, I worked for $2.00/hr at a job I enjoyed - line service at a small regional airport. I answered the phone, scheduled instructional flights, closed and opened the airport, cut grass, burned trash, gassed up the planes, changed oil, etc. I worked 14 hr days (sun up to sun down in the summer usually from 7:00 AM to 9:00 PM in the MIssouri heat and humidity. I worked two days and then had two days off. Anyway, I had an offer to work for the huge sum of $2.50/hr (night shift working on cleaning crew of a fast food restaurant). The primary purpose of my summer work was to earn money for the next year of college (I paid my own way). Even though I enjoyed my airport job much more I needed the money offered at the other job. So, I went to my manager at the airport and told them of my plans and gave them a one week notice. Well luckily, on my last day they offered to up my pay to $2.50 so I stayed. Luckily, when my teenage kids look for a job, they will have the luxury to weigh in with not only "how much" but "doing what." Summer camp work in Scouts may be very rewarding in some respects but not financially. My oldest just got done serving as staff for NYLT training (he was the SPL - lead youth staffer) and only had to pay $20 for the privilege! Pay was terrible (nothing) but what he learned was priceless.

nldscout is correct, one may not but in our council, they repeatedly do. Now, what is the litmus test for "district sponsored?" Is it having their permission? I doubt it. SR450Beaver is on the money with his "recommended" description. We have pleas every year from our outstanding shooting sports director that the SMs really screen who they allow on the ranges (especially for shotgun). Some screen, some sadly do not.(This message has been edited by acco40)

How would ducks agree to the Declaration of Religious Principle? Does their normal lifespan go past the age of 11 (assuming none have passed the fifth grade)? Would not the uniform police have a problem. What about YP? After all, many famous ducks (Donald and Daffy come to mind) didn't wear any pants!

Our Council recommends Rifle for second year Scouts and Shotgun for third year Scouts. Our Council also gives preference to Scouts due to age but numbers have been such that those who want to take the merit badge usually have no problem getting in the class. Last year, the camp put scopes on the rifles making the completion rate for the rifle merit badge almost double. Now, I ask a related question. If your Pack sets up an outing to take Webelos Scouts to a council camp and have them shoot BB guns with the appropriate certified range officer, is that allowed?

Correct! Side story: When Shrek came out my two youngest, about 6 and 9 at the time, like the song, "I'm a Believer" sung by Smashmouth and of course thought this was brand new song. So, I took them upstairs and played them the same song by .... Bram Tchaikovsky (Strange Man/Change Man) and then by the Monkees. Don't believe I've ever hear Neil Diamond sing this one! What was funny was that I was placing the tone arm to the song in question by son asked in amazement - how did you do that? He was flabbergasted that I could seem to find the exact groove where the song started in what appeared to him to be a completely random spot on the vinyl. They had no clue about albums and only knew of the push button digital tune selection of CD players. Yes, sometimes us old farts can still impart wisdom to todays youth!

My wife gave my son a disposable camera to use at summer camp last year. At the end of summer camp, she takes the camera and goes and gets the pictures developed. Well, she was quite shocked to see that a few of the boys put the camera down their pants and took a few pictures! With all the child pornography issues in the news she was not amused. As a (fake) threat, I gathered the three or four boys who I was pretty sure were the offending parties and stated that there was only one way to determine who were the culprits - match body parts to the photos. Their faces went pale rather quickly. I laugh about it now but better judgment is not the strong suit of 12 - 15 year old boys (or girls for that matter)! Oh, and once when driving home from an outing, a Scout in the back seat of my car (third seat in SUV, well out of my "reach") was egged on to "moon" the van carrying another group of Scouts back form our outing. All males involved. YPT concerns? Not on my part. An "education opportunity" for me to explain good taste, decorum, etc.? You bet. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Another favorite - how many grooves on a 33 and a third LP (album) that has thirty minutes of music on each side? Any takers?

The Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program. No ifs, ands or buts about it. In our troop, we have some limited sign-off by the youth but not much. At one point, we had quite a bit but I don't think the boys handled that responsibility very well so I pulled in the reins a little. Too many were "demonstrating water rescue" in the church basement type of thing. We don't have any Troop Guides just yet but I plan on having them very soon and will give them responsibility for the boys in the patrol they oversee. I do not accept parent sign-off formally but I do informally. Let me explain. For example, if a parent tells me his Tenderfoot seeking Scout had such and such a time in the quarter mile run/walk I pencil it in and sign it off (or one of our SAs). I take the parents word but they don't actually sign the book. If I expect abuse, I have a built in check and balance. Please remember, the goal of Scouting is not to obtain the rank of Eagle. That is a nice by-product but not the over-arching goal. It may be the goal of the parent or youth, but not the program. As such, keep advancement in perspective.

Here is a nice and non-inflammatory way to handle this problem. At your next Scoutmaster meeting (or PLC if the majority of your SAs attend) bring up the topic of "chain of command." Draw on a piece of paper two dots; SM on the left, SPL on the right. Who should the SPL interface with? Why, only the SM, his ASPL and the PL. Who should the SM interface with? Only the SPL and his SAs. Now, draw the SAs to the left of the SM and the ASPL & PLs to the right of the SPL. Who should the PLs interface with? Why, the boys in their patrol and the SPL. Who should the SAs interface with? The SM. That is a formal chain of command. No SM or SA should be waking up Scouts with the possible exception of the SM waking up the SPL. Having a formal chain of command and adhering to it creates respect and draws boundaries. The SPL, SM and SAs should not be addressing the "rank and file" Scouts. It undermines the PLs authority and respect. Now, the above doesn't mean that the no verbal contact should exist outside of these formal chain of command boundaries but they should be limited to run of the mill conversations not "orders" or "commands."