acco40

Some of the posts remind me of a typical conversation I have with my wife sometimes that goes like this: (Wife) Honey, what would you like for dinner tonight, chicken or meat loaf. (acco40)Well, how about meatloaf? (Wife)No, I already took the chicken out to thaw so I think we should eat that first and have meatloaf tomorrow. Well, being male, I perceive most questions as seeking a solution. After an exchange like that above I think to myself (careful to never verbalize) why on Earth did she ask me that question if my answer had no bearing on her decision? Same goes for some of the individuals who ask questions here. They pose a question and then ignore or worse, attack responses (or even worse, responders) they don't agree with! Sometimes I forget that some (females?) are really not looking for an answer at all but just want to be engaged in conversation.

The requirements as I understand them are: Boys and adults may wear this strip if they show their knowledge of a foreign language or the sign language for the hearing impaired by: 1. Carry on a five-minute converstion in the language. 2. Translate a two-minute speech or address. 3. Write a letter in the language. 4. Translate 200 words from the written word. Now, for my kids, English is not a foreign language (well maybe proper English is!) so I iterpret that they could not earn the English interpreter strip. Now, what is the definition of foreign? Should a Spanish speaking hispanic, born in Mexico but a US Citizen living in Texas be able to earn an English Interpreter strip? In my book no but he should be able to earn his Spanish Interpreter strip. To others, foreign may mean different than what he learned originally (i.e. his second or third, etc. language) regardless of the predominant language of his country of citizenship. Of course, the intent of the strips are to show others that you are able to communicate in the language shown with the understanding that it is not the predominant language. Sign language is considered a language; requirement 3 does not apply.

Beavah, I'm a unit commissioner and when I visit other units I would never dream of critisizing the adults or youth about uniform issues. However, if I was asked point blank, "Is it okay not to wear Scout pants?" I would reply what the BSA policy is. Again, that is not say the volunteers are bad, the boys are evil or that the program that the unit puts on is not high quality. What would your response be to such a question? Look at the original question. Can a Boy Scout troop set it own uniform policy? I think we owe a proper response to that question. P.S. Has anyone really paid attention to the verbage on the Uniform Inspection Sheet - Conduct uniform inspection with common sense; the basic rule is neatness.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I agree with Ed. Assessing blame should not be the top priority. No one admitted to the other hole so I had to take both other boys knives and cards - Nothing like guilty until proven innocent! I know that this isn't popular but I've only taken a knife from a Scout (he threw it at another Scout according to other Scouts, no adult witnesses) once and promptly gave it to his father who would deal with him much more harshly than I would. Also, I know I'm in the minority again but the Scout's "Totin' Rights" can be taken from him if he fails in his responsibility but nowhere does it state that corner are cut off or the card may be repossessed. After all, do we strip a youth of his 1st Class rank if he forgets how to tie a bowline?

As for the advice one gets from others on this forum - you get what you pay for! And, if you divide what you pay for by the number of posts submitted by the poster you get the "value" of that bit of advice!

Why do individuals post here? 1) They want reassurance that what they are doing is "correct" or maybe more importantly to them has majority approval. 2) They want to point out that someone in their unit (unit to which they belong?) is doing something "wrong" and want verification from others. 3) Want to point out what is "wrong" with the BSA. 4) (and sadly least likely) They really have a sincere question or something of value to share with others.

Some things are hot button issues. Should infants in the USA be breast fed? Yes. So states many pediatricians, nutritionists, MDs, etc. Does that mean that mothers who do not breast feed their babies are bad mothers? Of course not. Should Scouts wear the uniform (see SM Handbook description of activity uniform)? Yes. Should Scouters use the methods of Scouting, one of which is the Uniform, in carrying out their program? Yes. I fully agree with FScouter on this. Now, Beavah, nobody asked about how big of an issue this may be. Yes, other things are much more important but we were asked a question and many responded with, as I may be so bold to say, the correct answer. A Boy Scout troop can set their own uniform policy (as Eamon pointed out, yours has!) However, a Boy Scout troop may not set their own policy except in the areas of hat, neckerchief and activity shirt. On a personal note, I have Scouts in our troop the correct pieces (shirt, pants, socks, belt, neckerchief, etc.) but the shirt is half unbuttoned, shirt tail out, hat askew, etc. This irks me, especially during a flag ceremony. Now, we also have to remember that boys of this age are testing limits. That is a part of adolescence. We do have to pick and choose our battles and look at the big picture when making decisions. That is why we, as volunteers are paid the big bucks!(This message has been edited by acco40)

Kudu - nice articulate post.

Can one be moral and not believe in a divinity? Is homosexuality in and of itself immoral? I think the policy makers of the BSA have answered these questions as "no" and "yes" respectively. This has upset many. For myself, I disagree with the stance the BSA has taken on these issues but have agreed to abide by them. Is that hypocritical? I'm a "dues paying member" my local Catholic church but not a member of the Catholic church? Is that hypocritical? The United States Government charters the BSA by an act of Congress. The USG spends taxpayer dollars for the benefit of the BSA. Yet, our courts have deemed the BSA as a private organization. That decision still has me puzzled. Yet, in order to expel Dale and others, that is what the BSA successfully argued. Now, they are facing the consequences of that decision. Public institutions (public schools, military bases, etc.) should not sponsor private organizations. Again, should public institutions "fund" private organizations? No. Do Catholic schools educate many non-Catholics? Yes! Do they provide "quasi-free" education to many inner city non-Catholic children? Yes! Do they save the public schools money by doing this? Yes! Should they get Government subsidies for their work? No. Now to the original post. Raj Bhakta (author of article) is running for political office. I'll take a wild guess that he can't trace his descendants back to the Mayflower! So, I'm sure he is trying to put on an all-American front and supporting the BSA. Similar to John Dingell, congressman from my area, who has a huge Lebanese constituency, saying that he will not assess blame in the current mid-east conflict. Politicians go for mom and apple pie every time. I'm a pragmatist. Our unit is sponsored by an Episcopal Church. None of the Scouts are members of that church. They provide a meeting place for us and don't really interface with us at all. We have participated in many of their service projects in the past and will continue to do so. By the way, the Episcopal church is struggling with homosexual issues right now too. Now, I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. The BSA program has many fine qualities and individuals and I am pleased with the effect the program has had on my family. Does it have some warts? Yes. I'm not ready to sacrifice the benefits my family gets, and the benefits I think Scouting gets from my family if I may be so arrogant to say, because of some issues with public schools funding units. In our area, budget crunches have forced the public schools to charge all organizations for use of their facility. As a unit commissioner, I'm aware of a few schools that still charter units and we are working to rectify that situation but as Hunt stated in reality that is not going to effect the program on the ground. As Merlyn stated, it does make a big difference in principle and possibly in a dollar sense by exposing themselves to lawsuits. But, kind of like having In God We Trust on our coins and bills - I don't think that changes anyones religious beliefs but it is a serious matter in principle for some. I agree with Trevorum, the BSA will change - its just a matter of when. Sorry for the discombobulated ranting. Just my two cents worth.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Popcorn (Trails End) sales fund your unit, district and council. Individual unit fundraising does not. I've noticed that units that are somewhat "anti-council" for whatever reason rarely participate in popcorn sales. In the past, our unit has discouraged opening up the microwave popcorn boxes to sell individual bags. Our "stick" was that who ever opened the box, just bought the whole contents - don't return any unsold to the unit. Now, our council does the same except the "box" is now the case. We are not allowed to return individual boxes/cans of product, only full cases. Too many units were returning cases which were not full. I don't like fundraising and especially for public schools - including sports teams. While I don't relish it for Scouting, it does teach the boys some important lessons. Number one - money does not grow on trees!

I remember that day well. It was a hot day and we arrived at our "plot" (Central Region, far away from the Alaska contingents) in the noon day sun with no shade in sight. We had already decided our layout of tents (no power lines, trees or any thing else in our expanse). We had 21 tents (18 for the 36 Scouts, one for me, one for the QM and one for the other two Scoutmasters), and five small dining flys (shade for about one picnic table per fly). Well, we were about 80% finished when a bunch of jamboree staff came into the site vehemently stating nothing over six feet tall could be erected. No explanation given. My guess, it was an arbitrary decision with the thought that anything bigger would take to much effort in this heat and humidity. Well, our dining flys were probably right around six feet at the edges and maybe seven feet tall in the middle. Were they asking us to not use them and stay out in the field with no shade? How ludicrous I thought. Well after the rumor mill and a few facts came pouring in during the next 24 hours or so it became obvious why they didn't want "tall" objects being erected. But still, I wonder why such blanket rules. On a side note, I think the BSA was much more negligent about the way they handled the jamboree big events (opening and closing). The military told them before Sunday (the day the jamboree was opened to non-staff) that their plans were a disaster in the waiting. The BSA did not budge on their logistic plans for the opening and closing ceremony. I talked with MPs who shared this information with me before the canceled opening event disaster occurred. I am not impressed that the BSA put publicity of the event above the boys health and safety. Live and learn and it will be interesting to see how 2010 goes.

This is spun off from the Adult meals at campouts - Eat with the patrols? thread. Two approaches and more important, with good reasons behind both were presented. Mike F 1) Our adults always cook for ourselves. As others have said, we usually try to eat really well as an example for the guys. The SPL and ASPL also will start eating with the adults on the campout this weekend. In the past, we've always had them eat with their old patrol, but are now making the change for several reasons: a) As SPL and ASPL, they are not members of a patrol. b) We've noticed that Patrol Leaders have a hard time clearly remaining in charge of their patrol when SPL/ASPL step back into the mix for meals. c) Meals with SPL/ASPL and SM, etc. will allow for more adult interaction with the boy leaders. We'll see how it goes. For the last few months, we've been awarding a Golden Spoon award that's displayed on patrol flag after every event where we cook. Patrols are working hard to earn that award and we haven't seen a hot dog since it started. Region 7 Voyageur 2)The SPL and ASPL are guests of the patrols. Each patrol is told how many guests to plan for when they are making their menu and purchasing food. Adults always eat with patrols. Scouts seem to put more effort into their meals when they know that guests will be eating with them. Adult patrol advisors have a vested interest in observing the menu planning and food preparation if they are going to be eating that food. We had a campout several years ago (which I was not able to attend) where the adults ate separate from the patrols. The adults had all kinds of gourmet food and reassured each other that they were setting an example for the patrols to emulate. No one paid much attention to the patrols as they cooked. As it turns out one patrol had undercooked pork chops for dinner. Three scouts threw-up during the night. ________________________________________________________________________________ Now, I've stated that our troop does method 1. I think both methods have valid points. I found that when the adults ate with the youth patrols, the adults (especially the non-Scouters) could not resist "lending a helping hand" and the boys welcomed the adults taking over what they saw as a chore. Also, the Scouters didn't always like macaroni and cheese, Starburst for snacks, etc. but we also did not want to dictate what the boys selected as menu items. However, at our last outing we had way to many Scouts who put on their best "homeless" impersonations and hung out with the adult patrol come meal time. Some of the adults, usually again a non-Scouter, would always be slipping them some food. Big picture - I think these two styles underline how many of us feel about how to teach leadership. Right or wrong, I tend to fall into the camp of let the patrols figure it out for themselves to some extent. Now does spewing your dinner a health and safety issue? Yes. But I bet those in that patrol are forever making sure the chops are not raw in the future! I always give my raw egg spiel every spring for the benefit of the new Scouts. Where do eggs come from? "Chickens", answer the boys. No, I mean what part of a chicken do eggs come from? Puzzled looks until one answers, "Their butts!" So, do you think it is a good idea to wash your hands and the utensils that touch raw egg shells or eggs? We have not had any food poisoning yet but it is a big concern of mine. Do you lend extra rain gear to those who forgot theirs? What if a patrol forgot to stock their patrol box with matches? What if a Scout forgot their mess kit? I fall into the camp of having them ask their patrol buddies first - not the adults. Also, the concept of "group responsibility" such as a patrol is foreign to most boys at the ages of 11 - 17. If a boy in their patrol forgot to bring the stove, in my book it is not just that boys fault but the PLs, the patrol quartermaster, possibly the patrol scribe (I like things written down), etc. Other adults don't like this approach. They think the boys are much to young to be given this type of responsibility. I don't know how many adults have approached me on the "fairness" issue of why their Johnny should have to suffer because his patrol mate did not follow through. What are your thoughts?

I'm left handed. I'm not really that sensitive but I am aware of the connotation throughout history of left. Who sits at the left hand of God? What is the opposite of right? What is the definition of sinister? Things do change. In my youth being conservative was understood to be "resistant to change." At a time when there was blatant racism and sexism to be called a conservative was demeaning to many. Now the tables have turned. At one time, "more government" was deemed a liberal idea. Why now is the "conservative" side of the abortion debate considered to mean more government control and the "liberal" side to get government out of the issue. Why the need to label? Why not just state an opinion without the need for a label? Packsaddle hit the nail on the head. It is in how these terms are used that bring on ill feelings. Myself, I don't like to be painted with either brush.

Den mothers? Somebody is showing their age! Also, I didn't know that vegatables had ethnicity or am I interpreting "a family-run Chinese vegetable farm" incorrectly. I know there are Chinese Muslims but talk about a melting pot - Annie Lin a Chinese, Muslim, BSA den leader! America, you've got to love it! If ever in Hamtramck, MI - check out the Polish Muslims mucsical group. They are fantastic. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I don't like confrontational "news." I attribute much of this to the popularity of Rush Limbaugh who may not have started it all (anyone remember father Charles Coughlin) but seems to have spread the tactic. We seem to have enough talent for about five or six television channels and hundreds of channels to choose from. I don't subscribe to cable TV. My familiarity with O'Reilly, Limbaugh and others is from radio. One channel I do enjoy watching very much is CBC. I like their take on what is happening in the USA. Driving off a bridge with a young lady doesn't make liberal policies wrong. Abusing prescription drugs doesn't make conservative policies wrong. "Liberal" and "conservative" should not be used as pejorative adjectives. I wish all of these "news" shows would debate and inform - that would be good entertainment in my book.

At summer camp we have "block" times for merit badge classes. What I've found for first year scouts is that after breakfast prep, cooking, eating and cleaning it is almost time for lunch prep. With time slotted for merit badge classes, SPL meetings, PLC meetings, time spent making patrol gateways, troop gateways, etc. that eating in a dining hall saves time. Again, look at the way the BSA held the National Jamboree. After a food draw for breakfast the lunch was "dining hall" and then a food draw for dinner. The bigger question at our summer camps is should the troops eat meals simultaneously (pros - nice place for announcements, camaraderie, etc.) or staggered (pros - less crowded, not all entering and exiting at same time, etc.). It really depends on the number of campers and the size of the dining hall and staff. If they can easily accommodate all at one time, go for it.

Camp sites can always be subdivided. Have each patrol set up their area. Have you ever read the 2nd Class req. 2b? One has to select his patrol site. Hard to accomplish with a troop site. When I became Scoutmaster one of the first things I did was make sure each patrol had their own patrol box, stove, lantern, tents, utensils, water jugs, etc. Look at how troops are set up at the National Jamboree. One flat square troop site which most troop subdivide into four areas (or sometimes five). Each patrol cooks separately. Another thing our troop does is have the adults function as a patrol. This gives the youth something to emulate. We also have the SPL and ASPL eat with the adult patrol on occasion as a "perk." This also leads to the PL not being overshadowed while the patrols function.

I think longtime purveyors of this forum know my stance on these issues. What I think is important to remember is that the public reason the BSA excludes overtly homosexual members (I'm paraphrasing just a bit) is the same as that for atheists. It is not due to youth protection rules, fear of membership declines, etc. It is because as some have previously stated, they are considered not to be "morally straight" (i.e. don't exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and Law). That is a fact. Now, the debate of whether or not one may be "morally straight" and be a homosexual and/or an atheist is a matter of debate by many (thus we are going on to the 16th page of this subject!). Now, if the BSA hides behind this public statement when the real reason is YP concerns or fears of membership decline they should remember that a Scout is trustworthy.

We sold a lot of weapons to the Shah of Iran. Iran was our "friend." Then came the Ayotollah and the hostage crisis - oops. We supplied the mujahadeen with weapons to fight the Godless commies in Afganistan. Then came the Taliban - oops. We use to give Saddam and Iraq our support when they were fighting the bloody Iraq/Iran war for over eight years. Now we are fighting Iraqis again - oops. Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. these countries have very little weapon production capabilities. Their weapons come from China, Russia (and other former Soviet Union countries), and yes, the United States. Do you know that sophisticated RPGs can be bought for under $10? It looks like Israel and the United States are committing more and more ground forces to fight "terrorists" in southern Lebanon, Afganistan and in Baghdad. I wouldn't have a clue about what to tell 11-17 year old boys about all this. SR450Beaver, I feel for you. I have worked in the defense industry all my life. My young impressionable son thinks what I do is "cool." One day when watching a TV ad for the Army (back inthe Be All You Can Be days) they showed Abrams tanks barreling about the country side and I asked my son if he had any interest at all in joining any of the services (he was about 10 at the time). His first question was, "Could people shoot at you?" When I exclaimed that yes, there was always a chance that he may see combat if he joined he quickly added that he had no iterest. Now, that is intelligence! (Before I get blasted, that was humor.) My oldest son wants to do an Eagle project that would benefit the troop in Iraq and Afganistan. I support him as SM and "dad" but he is scratching his head trying to get a signature for the "community representative." I suggested he give Rummy a call. :-)

First lesson in scouts - don't worry about trying to please everyone. No matter what you do, you will not. At the pack level, we did not have "mandatory" sales limits and as usual, some boys (families) sold oever $1000 worth of product, some none. All money raised went to the pack. Was it fair? No. Is life fair? No. It is a good lessen. At the troop level, we've set a minimum amount to sell ($120) which yields about $40 to the troop. All sales above that limit go to the individuals Scout account. Some didn't like it. Well, the alternative was to raise dues. All had the option of opening their wallets instead. The real way the Trails End program should work is to have the adults (pack level) or youth (troop level) set up their Scouting year and determine what it will take to fund. Next, do they want to fund this with popcorn sales, donations, self, or some combination of the latter? Then go out and execute the plan.

Change/add to the 1st Class requirements. :-)

oldsm - great story. Yes, I'm sad that so many don't wear the uniform. Now for some of my pet peeve phrases: full uniform - similar to what FScouter said about waist up uniform, your are either in uniform or not. Full uniform is redundant. right hand salute - the boys have started hearing this command and picked up on this bad habit. Is there some othere salute (i.e. left foot salute?) that I'm not aware of?

Forget the Scouts. My God, have you asked returning troops "Why are we fighting in Iraq?" You won't get a concensus from them so what pray tell do we tell the boys in our Boy Scout Troop? OGE's reasons? Acco40's reasons? Zahnada's reason's? What I think we could introduce to the boys is that it is our duty at citizens to be an informed citizenry and leave it at that.

OGE, the UN has currently asked Israel to stop all hostilities in southern Lebanon. Do you advocate we start bombing Israel to enforce this UN directive? In the metro-Detroit area we have the largest group of Arabs in the US (some will say Los Angeles). We get many diverse, passioned and in my book, crazy ideas in these parts. We also can have great discussions from many different points of view. My neighbors are Iraqis and I've learned from them. No, they are not Saddam supporters but the US has made many mistakes in Iraq. The US military is unique. Our soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines do not take an oath to serve Bush, the President, the people, Congress, etc. They take an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Most foreign militaries are there to do the bidding of individuals. When Saddam signed a treaty, do you really think he represented the Iraqi people? The nation? Also, our fine soldiers are trained to seek and destroy the enemy, not be policemen, judges, jail keepers, consensus builders, etc. To ask them to perform these roles is not only unfair but dangerous. To get to the question at hand, no I don't discuss these issues with the Scouts in my role as Scoutmaster. If asked, I may give them some limited information and play devils advocate when these young minds think they know the answer to these complex questions (like Eamon's nuke them all Scouts who I am sure are just echoing their parents opinions). Last summer, I was driving home from an outing from North Manitou Island (I highly recommend it!). In my car was my son (13) and two other boys, one 14 and one almost 15. The oldest of the boys had older brothers in the 18 - 25 year range who had friends in the Army who were about to be deployed to Iraq. Also, a graduate of our local elementary school, whose parents still live a block from my house, had just lost a son in combat in Iraq. My son, was quiet about the issue, too young to really feel it had any direct relevance but the oldest Scout expressed his opinion. He was very much confused and conflicted but overall was against the US military presence in Iraq. When it is not just a cerebral discussion of "why" but concrete evidence of young lives he knows being directly affected, well the debate has more meaning. My two cents to the boys was simply it pays no dividend to discuss why the US decided to attack Iraq, disband their military, remove Baathists from government positions, stand by as the country fell into chaos, etc. The question at hand is what should the US do now? (This message has been edited by acco40) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

What I've witnessed is that most packs do the "belt-up" only (nearly 95%) and most troops (around 60%) do the field uniform properly. Why? Good question. I believe it is because of "tradition." Also, a few years ago, I don't think Tigers had uniform pants and with Webelos having the option of going to "Boy Scout" pants that most families (mothers being the biggest influence on the purchase IMO) looked around and did not see others with the pants so did not go that route.