yknot

Neither my Council nor any of the three Councils near me follows your definition of a scout activity. Individual scouts routinely pursue achievements and MB components on their own. They are also free to buddy up with a friend from the same patrol, a different one, another troop, etc., to work on advancement. If boy A jogs down the street to meet boy B to go for a run for Personal Fitness, they do not schedule it with the SM and two leaders do not trail them down the road during the run.

OK, well in my Council we can't do that. It's two deep at all times. We send four adults to summer camp. Under that definition, anything a scout is doing is then a scouting activity. A scout attends a town council meeting for Citizenship in the Community would then require two adult leaders to attend with him. Do your units send two leaders to town council meetings with scouts that are working on that merit badge?

Also, just to answer the second part. I know scouts leave scouting because it's more fun to do things without it but it's not just having two adults along that makes it a drag. Many components of the program, from the uniforms that a lot of kids don't like to the homework like aspects of many of the rank requirements and badges to the long boring meetings and ceremonies also contribute to that. It's not just because of YP. That's my point. I understand it's part of it, but it's not the only reason why scouts is losing kids. and if we continue to get stuck on that like a canoe on a dry river bed, we're never going to get anywhere.

Is that for real, lol? Is there an actual reference for that in YP or G2SS? I know I am not supposed to be the lone adult with any youth as you note but I have never heard that kids can't ever do anything together with a friend in a non patrol group to work on requirements and have it count. Scouts in our units do it all the time. For example, the Cycling MB clearly states use the BSA buddy system and it's not unusual for older scouts to meet up for a ride and work on this. Friends working on Personal Fitness at the same time will meet up for runs without towing two adults in their wake. Same with Sports MB., etc. etc.

So you are saying that once a kid joins scouts, he can no longer call up a scout friend and say 'let's go on a hike' unless two leaders accompany them? This is news to me, but if so, then yes I would say adult supervision is overdone, because a basketball team member can definitely call up a teammate and say 'let's go shoot some hoops' without having coaching staff accompany them. However, I don't think that's the case. If you are saying having adults involved is a demotivator for kids, that is also wrong, because plenty of kid activities have some degree of adult supervision. I am also not aware that kids are leaving scouts in droves to do scouting elsewhere. Where? Has Trail Life suddenly gained 400,000 kids? The time period of growth for scouts -- the 1960s -- was due to many factors including demographics and a lack of other opportunities. To try to pin the failure of scouting solely on the addition of YP measures is silly. Predators didn't suddenly discover BSA in the 1960s. If you review the history of predation in scouting, you will find documentation that it began almost immediately after its establishment in the very early part of the 20th century. I don't know where these arguments are going or why they persist but it seems like insisting that YP ruined scouting ignores all the other problems with it. Does anyone really believe scouting would have survived to the 2020's if it had ignored YP in the 1990s or taken it less seriously?

I don't know what it is like in your state but in my state we've had the best luck with the pharmacy program at CVS, Rite Aid, etc. CVS in particular seems to drop vaccine appointments at 4 a.m., 5 a.m., 5:30 a.m. We've been able to get multiple vaccine appointments for ourselves and others this way. I keep hearing people say they started checking early in the a.m. but in our neck of the woods even 6 a.m. can be too late to grab one. Just FYI for your scouter friends. I'm getting my second Moderna today. Hoping I'm functional tomorrow. Got a lot to do...

Interestingly, elephants and a growing irrelevance to what audiences of today seek eventually brought about their bankruptcy.

That's interesting. To me though this means the BSA structure is organized around the wrong customer, because of course it has to be the scout. For example, Little League isn't structured around meeting the needs of local ball clubs, it's structured around meeting the needs of the players. It's rules are the rules, and the local clubs follow them. If a ball club has a hard time finding umpires or doesn't like using them, it doesn't get to still run accredited games just because they want to run their own program. Little League enforces its rules in order to provide a comparable experience for all players in the League no matter where they are.

A scout doesn't need an adult to call up a couple buddies and go for a hike, or go online to order something, or go to the scout store and buy whatever he needs to do a merit badge or requirement either. I'm not sure what you are talking about. There's no difference. Yes, high school captain's practices are one situation where kids are more on their own but even then they really aren't and that is hardly the norm for the millions of kids in sports. Most of the time there are multiple coaches, officials, parents involved in everything. And 4-H? I never did anything with less than two leaders around. And at fair time, there were rafts of additional adults involved in supervising everything we were doing, from judges, to committee members, to veterinary and animal welfare staff. Are you kidding me, lol? I was talking to a friend involved in 4-H in another state and they have to call law enforcement if a parent is late and leaves them alone with a kid. Could you imagine having that being mandatory in BSA? And yet, 4-H has almost 7 million members. One thing they've done is a lot more independent research on why kids join or leave 4-H, which is something BSA has never done.

You could say that's due to YPT. However, you could also argue that's due to a host of other reasons like changing demographics, a rise in other youth activities, and BSA's own ham fisted reactions to emerging social issues. It could also be because of the nonstop marketing of advancement to Eagle over outdoor fun. A lot of older kids drop out once they Eagle or because they are not into advancement. I don't see how adult involvement is the deterrent because then how do you explain why things like sports, robotics or 4-H are so popular. If BSA hadn't implemented YP measures, we probably wouldn't be talking about this today because we'd have zippo members. Liability concerns certainly helped drive that but once BSA realized it was a buffet for child predators, it had to act.

True. But that is ancient history. Some version of two deep has been around since the 1980s. It predates me. Scouting was able to function fairly well for more than 40 years with it. I've never known scouting that wasn't two deep, but I've still seen plenty of units that are almost completely scout led. No, they can't go off and do Lord of the Flies in the woods, but they can still be fairly independent. It seems like a useless point to keep grumbling about. It's not like it's going to go away. It's not like it's going to become less restrictive. It's very likely that some additional requirements may be added. There's obviously still issues with it as have been discussed here. While it's not the sum of what we are, like it or not our entire program will be judged on whether we really are the gold standard of YP. However, without data, functional IT, consistent application, oversight, etc., etc., we clearly can't say that. And as someone else mentioned, the nature of what we offer really demands that we be head and shoulders above the rest on this subject.

I think we minimize YP at our peril. All the quandaries outlined here are why many critics claim BSA should not exist -- because it can't keep youth safe. I also don't understand the complaint that YP ruined scouting. What's the big deal about having at least two adults along and that they be trained. I think it's more G2SS that has clipped wings.

I think it would be easy enough to tie YPT to the recharter date for all perhaps with the caveat that you don't have to renew that first year if you've taken the training within the past six months. A lot of memberships, etc., have paperwork that has to be refiled by an annual date. Obviously, BSA needs to up the IT end.

That's what I thought. Surprised there are Councils that can get around it, but that would speak to how serious BSA is or is not about YPT. I think annual makes the most sense. However, that's another area where the BSA is not serious enough because a significant number of people had extreme difficulty accessing and completing the online training. It also needs to streamlined so that it is easier for people to take in areas where internet access is limited. I tried for two months to complete it and finally gave up since I was not being rechartered anyway. I had simply wanted to maintain it because I still assist.

I'm confused. Maybe it's just our council, but we cannot recharter unless everyone on the charter has a current YPT through the coming year. It will get kicked back. At the unit level, we further require every parent to have YPT or we will not accept registration. I would not hold us up as any great example though. There is a disturbing history of leadership not taking YPT or G2SS all that seriously. But at least everyone has been through the training. Parents have to take the training in order for them to understand the rules.

I don't think that's true. Otherwise we'd have 150,000 claims filed. Claims dropped once the BSA started putting YP measures in place although certainly plenty of abuse cases still occurred.

Social media is where it's at to reach families today. In our area, one Troop is up while a few others are slightly down. Packs have been hard hit though. A lot is going to depend on what happens with Covid. Lots of places opening up despite the fact that we've stalled at a pretty high level of community transmission. I just hope it doesn't come back around to bite us and ruin the spring and summer with another surge after Easter and Spring Break.

STOPit is utilized by a number of school districts in my area. Some have been hesitant to sign on with it for those reasons -- the implementation is not perfect. However, it does give kids an access point and a voice. It's been out several years now and the districts keep renewing it so it can't be that useless. I just used that as an example though. More than any specific app, there doesn't seem to be a clear communications channel for scouts to self report in BSA and given the history and the scope of the issue, I think it's a missing piece. All I've ever seen is "tell a trusted adult" or language like that. I know there is a national reporting hotline that is publicized to adults, but I have not seen where that is also made clear to scouts. Something like that could suffice.

I agree. I was not aware that was not comprehensive BSA policy. Every parent in our units have to take YPT in order to register their scout. They have to include their YPT certificate in their registration packet or we won't accept it.

Almost every church has their own YPT program. I am most familiar with the Catholic Church and Methodist programs. Virtus Protecting God's Children program. UMCs Safe Sanctuaries program. Babe Ruth League child protection program is a youth sports example. One component that some of these programs have that BSA does not have is a self reporting capability. For example, the Catholic Church thru Virtus offers the STOPit phone app that allows youth to anonymously report abuse of themselves or other children. To my mind, this is a key piece that is missing in BSA. In the sports programs I've been involved with, and I realize this is anecdotal, management of YPT infractions are dealt with far more swiftly and in a matter of fact way. I attribute this, again anecdotally, to the fact that league organizers routinely need to quickly resolve conflict of all kinds as part of their roles. Yelling at kids on the field, you're out. Repeatedly ignore two deep requirements, you're out.

Here are a few ideas: - Don't recharter COs that aren't actively involved in overseeing units and verifying that YPT is being followed. - Clarify certain vague YPT BSA policies so they are less open to creative interpretation. - Encourage integration of units to break down insular unit "cultures". - Streamline volunteer roles/provide better support so units are not so desperate for volunteers that they accept questionable people or are reluctant to confront issues.

That is what I have been trying to figure out. To my recollection, I'd already seen estimates that we'd be around 1.2 million before Covid hit; I was expecting a lower number after Covid. If this is December 2020, I don't think it would capture that. I don't know if we have to wait until next year to find out. If there was an even more substantial hit than this, though, I expect we might hear more in the months to come because that would certainly affect operating cash flow for BSA and it might come up in the bankruptcy case.

I can see where that would have some basis in fact, at least as far as how that data could be a reality. In the BSA YPT system, there is no oversight. COs are supposed to be the overseers on paper, but in reality that often does not happen and there are multiple reasons why Districts, Councils, and the BSA turn a blind eye to that and don't enforce it. There is a lack of clarity in many BSA YPT policies. There is great variation in how different scouters and units interpret YPT. In those ways I think it is less effective than the YPT programs administered by some of the churches, sports leagues and other youth activities I have encountered. There is a lot more clarity and direct oversight in other youth organizations. That might also be a function of the fact that many of those activities are less fraught with problematic situations than scouting is.

That is great for you. That must be something your population really wants and you are doing well at meeting that need. Our summer events are always barely attended. Taking a break over the summer works for us. We do a couple limited things but don't go full bore.

We discussed this a lot in another post and demographics vary widely unit to unit. A lot of our families have vacation homes or do extended and multiple vacations and clear out for the summer. We also have a lot of kids in private schools and the end and start of school is all over the map. Let's not beat people up for not doing things "our" way. What works for you is great. May not work for someone else. We do offer summer pack events and we always send a small contingent to cub and troop summer camps but you can't run meetings. I will also say the volunteers sometimes really want a break.