yknot

I have sometimes wondered if one of National's possible survival strategies is to mostly give up on local scouting and COs. Almost all of its liabiity problems have come from the CO and unit level. There is a reason why local scouters and national and council scouters don't seem to be speaking the same language: they have almost completely different goals and purposes. If BSA were concerned about local scouting, it would have given up at least one HA base and tried to find a strategy to help functional councils keep functional camps. Problems with Youth Protection implementation make it clear

I think some councils that are selling camp properties are loathe to spell that out until the last minute especially in councils where the camps are all well utilized. They will want to wait to reveal that after it is pretty much a fait accomplit.

What happens to the BSA restructuring plan if it starts to become clear in the next month that 700,000 scouts in 2021 will go far south of that in 2022? I think that's what you are alluding to?

Some COs are not even interested in the facilities use agreement.

Let's hope you are right. All I know from a business persepctive is that insurance is more of a problem and an expense every year no matter what your safety record or training credentials. You might be able to get insurance but what if it requires doubling fees. Fewer scouts means fewer paying. I think a lot also will depend on the status and importance of the CO relationship when this is done. BSA may be able to get insurance, but COs may not care.

I think a lot of people are doing what works for them. Covid and the fee increases have led many people to simply opt for a cheap pack or den t shirt or a neckerchief if that makes sense for their demographics. Yes, the cub uniform expense is ridiculous but it's based on marketing and revenue. BSA wants parents to buy the new rank color matched hat, kerchief, socks, and new belt loop and book every year. It would be wonderful if the uniform was streamlined. Not sure it will happen though.

I'm kind of with 1980Scouter on this. The safety thresholds that parents demand only go up over time, not down. I'm always bemused by scouters who will deflect present day abuse cases by saying they will always happen because they happen in society. That may be true, but I think the public and parental tolerance for more cases in scouting is about nil going forward. I think organizations willing to sponsor a unit will also have minimal tolerance for seeing more headlines. And I think insurance is going to be harder to get. Whether or not BSA is in an OK position to handle futurepay outs may n

Thank you very much. Wow unknown and other are kinda large.

Is there any data on number/percent claims by CO denomination or category? I know we've seen it by LC sort of.

Just FYI on the Methodist side, they appear to be pretty well organized nationally and especially in my state. Every weekly email from the state conference has had a directive not to recharter until the bankruptcy is resolved. I can't envision a scenario where individual churches would defy that.

That's because other than increased fees, it hasn't had much effect unless you are in a council that is selling camps. Most councils, at least by me, are still saying business as usual. If BSA survives bankruptcy by leaving COs vulnerable, that's going to change quickly. BSA has support because it's seen as a moral force for good in the community by certain groups. If COs that have been sponsoring units in good faith start getting sued, that won't be the case. Also, I think scouting can be a bit of an echo chamber. We hear what we want to hear and dismiss what we don't. What I hear outside my

Yes, it's just incomprehensible. But so much about present day life is. I don't know whether BSA is damning themselves by behaving this way, or if they've just learned to play by survive at all cost rules like everyone else. There is so much commentary about how the woke world has destroyed scouting and yet I see it as a slow collapse from within.

Two thoughts. It sounds like common horsesense, which has often been lacking. It also sounds a teensy bit like a threat. It's one thing if COs don't want to sign the traditional CO agreement. While it's yet to be worked out how councils would be able to handle that responsibility en masse, it still keeps traditional relationships in place to some degree. It's another thing if the relationship turns chilly or even hostile and a facility use agreement might be problematic. The difficulty for these COs is that many have only dealt with their local unit or maybe council level, which often operate

That is treating him as if he has the intellect of a toddler. Lawyers may tell you what you can and cannot say, but an experienced professional in his field knows what pieces he has to work with. The defense that he came from outside scouting and therefore wouldn't know is also unbelievable. Companies like his that come in and help manage a restructuring often come in cold and have to do some degree of due diligence. It doesn't make any sense.

He's a human resources executive so his expertise is directing human resources. There aren't that many binding agreements in BSA that affect human resources, i.e., employees and volunteers, who for all intents and purposes are employees, that would be relevant in a restructuring. Chartered agreements between the council and the unit and the unit and the CO and whatever employment contracts/agreements that are in place for professionals. You could argue some subcontractor agreements. That's it. Not a big reading list. It's an unbelievable claim.

I don't know what to make of that comment by Mosby. There is no rational, reasonable explanation for that. He has a human resources background and was involved in several corporate restructurings. That's why he was put in that position. Such agreements would have been his bread and butter. Covid is yet another reason why he should have known about them because BSA's position during Covid has been to follow the direction of local health authorities and your CO. I'm not a fan of his. I think he was a poor choice but then again perhaps there wasn't anyone else willing to take that on.

I've never done a high adventure trip with scouts although we've had crews in our units go to both Phimont and Sea Base. You can never go wrong by being over prepared. Everyone might be fine in normal conditions over years of doing these trips. However, you never know when you might be faced with unexpected weather or some other unusual condition. It's a good instinct to get your scouts out swimming in open water conditions. We recently concluded the Olympics. Many successful athletes did their best to simulate Tokyo's extreme weather conditions while still at home. Do what you can.

This is high drama. I'm hanging on your every post.

Kids are a little different today. Maybe that's what Fred is referring to. It's not coddling. It's recognizing that the 10 and 11 year of today is different than the 10 year old of 20 years ago. Social media, 24 hour cable, peers, whatever, they don't have the same tolerance for games that they think make them look silly. It's why I feel like a lot of the program that seems great and nostalgic to many adults is actually out of sync for a lot of kids. When I did my first cub scout summer camp, the kids loved the shaving cream song. By the time of my last camp, they mostly thought it was really

I'm not sure what you are saying here, because your tone sounds like you are arguing with me but your words sound like you are mostly agreeing with me. The boys in Baden Powell's care were likely not at risk of being preyed upon by him simply because he was homosexual. They were safe because of his character. The homophobia in scouting that links orientation to character has confused the two. I've had double dads and double moms in my units and never worried about them. The biggest danger appears to be from people who are hiding what they are and use organizations like scouting and churches to

Furthermore, to anyone of the same homophobic opinions, you need to read up on Lord Baden Powell beyond the sanitized biographies written about him. He was without doubt a repressed, crossing dressing homosexual. Still a great man, with great wisdom to impart about kids, but that is undeniably who and what he was.

In high school I had a friend who looked so like a boy she was mercilessly teased and called butch. High school reunion ten years later she looked like a super model. 20 years later happily married with kids. The class heartthrob went into acting, had minor success, and is gay with a husband and a kid. I do not care what people do in their personal lives as long as it does not hurt anyone else. Scouting's problem was not with homosexuals, it was with pedophiles. The homophobic culture of scouting only aided and abetted them in their predation. Character is character. It doesn't have a co

We've discussed this in other threads but almost all of the BSA surveys I've taken are guided -- meaning the survey is constructed in such a way as to give support to an already desired conclusion. Gatekeeper questions keep leading responses that move towards the hoped for answers. This is a very common technique and is used by almost every entity with an agenda.

I'm sure you must be aware of this article from the LA Times from August 2012, but it does allude to some BSA policies including the fact that both probation of suspected abusers and suspensions were abolished after 1988. Up until that time, some offenders were placed on probation. There are some links to further research attached. I've always remembered this article because it was so horrific and was right around the time my eldest son crossed over to Troop. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:boAe1_XlNOMJ:https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-boyscouts-20120805-m

FYI, upstander is a pretty common term the kids have heard for years in school assemblies on bullying, inclusion, etc. Be an upstander not a bystander. I haven't taken the training but based on your excellent recap, a lot of the content you have outlined here is cribbed from standard presentations to school age audiences, including quotes, with some 2020 hotbutton updates. Not sure where this goes from here. Was anything said about Native American and other cultural representations/appropriation in scouting? I've wondered how any merit badge on this subject would square that.