Buggie

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Course it can't tell where in a page you left off if you stop before you reach the last post on a page. Still should help you get to where you need.

And the "go to unread posts" link/button helps find what to catch up on. 

As others have stated, option B. It's past the point of gentle touches. The parents are destroying the troop and though the scouts are not the problem, sometimes you have to do the painful act to prevent a worse event down the road. They have been endangering the troop on camp outs by threatening to pull out unless they get their way. They will continue to threaten the troop with dire actions to get their way. I would definitely have the district/council be aware of the what and the why, with the focus on the endangering scouts with threats to abandon scouts on camp outs and any other things that have disrupt the current troop. Let them know what has been done to try and resolve the issues, but that they have failed. And yes, through casual conversation, let any troop that might be receiving them know of the problems you've had. You don't even need to let them know WHO. Only communicate that there was an issue and it got this bad and this is what happened and why. It is up to them to decide what to do, but it's polite to let them know the reasons and that it isn't the scouts who are the issue, but the parents. Forewarned is forearmed. 

I've been posing the question to scouts during their BORs. "What would you like to do?" Hoping I could help facilitate the PLC to plan some sort of activity other than basic camping. Our older scouts don't care about anything. Younger scouts tend to want to do fishing. That's about it. Bums me out because I don't care for fishing, but I love hiking and canoeing. 

I have experience in two troops.  My current troop doesn't do anything other than car camping that I've seen so far. They have a history of going out and hiking along the Ouachita Trail for a stretch of a few days. Because the current troop doesn't do much beyond car camping, I've also been bringing up the Council's high adventure treks that are offered in the spring and fall seasons, along with the other items they might be interested in. No one ever bites though. 

The other troop alternated every two years with a week long high adventure trek. Mountain hiking/camping one summer, two years later a canoe trip, two more years and back to the mountains. All adult organized (which is another irritation I have), but at least they got the scouts OUT a few times. If the scout lasted their average seven years before ageing out, they had the opportunity to do one of each at least. Typically first years scouts were not allowed to go, in lieu of summer camp instead. 

I'm unclear on what constitutes a unit approval for a scout's Eagle project. 

I get that the process requires the scout to get the unit's approval (among other signatures) before taking an eagle project to the next level of the process before taking the Eagle Project Workbook to the Eagle Project Board. What I don't have a good handle on is what level of review is needed for the committee approval signature. 

We have one scouter who is saying all the scout needs for the approval is a general idea and concept to recognize if this is a project that can go forward. Yes? Sign and wish the scout well. 

However the project is very large in size and complexity and the scout came to the committee with a few photos of the area and a general idea of what the project was. The committee found that there were too many basic questions that hadn't been thought through. No paperwork had been filled out. Nothing other than here's the general idea and some pictures. 

I felt like it was one of those Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland items where the idea was pitched with too much general "we've got a barn and we can make costumes, let's put on a show!" type of proposal. Especially if the scout was really planning on meeting the project start date. (Scout's gotta do what they do, as learning from mistakes is expected.)

So what constitutes the level of review for this committee approval? We don't want to add hurdles or requirements. We do want the scout to succeed and be aware of some of the major items they really haven't thought through yet. 

Link to video

This is someone's remembrance of his time in Cubs. I found it entertaining. With a point of what sells the program: camping. 

As Eagledad stated, it's not a real BSA event, even though it is a BSA event. Not youth run at all. 

The thing I hear the most from the scouts when they return are their stories about trading. In the PDF mentioned above, they want to get beyond the "garage sale" type of trading, but that's what happened most often when my son went. The "Trappers" are reenactment type folks showing various skills, and in some cases, letting the scouts try it out themselves. The big thing the "Trappers" teach is how to trade, and it all involves tall tales. Which is where the real fun is. Scouts learn to come up with big stories for the smallest items. 

My son used to take two items with him to start his trading, but he later started his trading by buying a $6 hatchet they sell in the shop there. He'd then stand close to that shop and offer it up for trade, spinning a tall tale about it (had it for years, fought off a bear, defeated a gaggle of Webelos...). He's start trading up from there. As he got older, typically he'd get involved in a large trading type of Rube Goldberg line.  Adam has the item A he wants, but he wants Item B.  Bob has B, but wants C. Chuck has C but wants D. Doug needs help finding E, but doesn't want to trade, but if you can arrange a trade for him for Item E he'll give you D.  He's gotten up to around 11 folks involved where he finally gets someone to want what he has (item K) who then trades him item J and thus the trading network gets completed down the alphabet to where he comes away with the Item A he wanted. The last time he went he had a trading line about 15 deep when it fell apart and he didn't get what he really wanted. He had a great time doing all that though. 

Sometimes he comes away with something he really wanted (old gameboy, gameboy games etc). Other times just something he thought was cool (small skateboard, pocket knifes). Or something that he wasn't too cautious about. (Binoculars where one side doesn't work so well)  All in all, he had a great time, met a lot of scouts from around the area, and stories to tell. Plus in his early days he'd come home with a sack of wooden nickels. Thankfully he stopped bringing those home. 

We've another event in February for all the shooting/archery sports, Top Shot, which is pretty popular as well. 

Anyone heading to Trappers Rendezvous in January? I'm pretty excited about it all. It's a lot of fun for everyone attending. 

Link to Trappers Rendezvous on the council's page. 

it's held yearly by the Quivira Council there in Kansas

On 11/6/2018 at 7:01 AM, ncscouterz said:

Well we don't have enough leaders for 2 deep leadership so we always grab a parent to come along so we are never alone with the scouts.

This seems a little cross-wise and similar to things I encounter from folks now and then. A common confusion. 

Two deep leadership is where we want two adults with the Scouts in case of issues. The adults don't need to be joined at the hip, but within the same general nearby area. And like you pointed out, they both don't need to be registered scouters. 

Youth Protection is where there is no one-on-one contact between non-related scout and adult.

We had a visiting parent accuse our troop of two deep/YPT violation because they were left alone within the same room as the scouts while the nearest other scouter was in the next room. This of course was not a YPT issue.

It was, however, a poor judgement call in not being with the parent in case they had questions while they observed their kid interacting with the troop. I had been sitting and talking with them when I was called away by the SM who stayed with them when I left. I had assumed he realized that a good practice was to keep a scouter with the visiting adults in case of questions. As it was, the parent didn't want their child with our troop. They were experts because their older child had obtain Eagle rank the year before in another troop and knew we were violating YPT and we should be thankful they didn't turn us in.

I was thankful. 

Thankful they didn't choose our troop.

50 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

...does it matter whether these two adults are related to each other? 

As far as I've seen, BSA does not state anything about the adults being related or not.

And in some southern states (mine included), everyone is related to everyone. lol

I am my own Grandpa

Welcome to the virtual camp fire @DJsMommy. Thanks to you for being the CC of your unit! 

Even though it sounds a bit flippant, I rely on something from an old role playing game from long while back called Paranoia. In which the whole concept was that you were part of a team whose members all had secret assignments to betray various other teammates etc on the mission they were assigned to. The slogan was, "Trust no one. Keep your Laser handy." 

Commonly, we as a society want to trust those who have been around for awhile simply because we think, if they were "bad" they would have been caught long ago. We watch the new adults more closely until we're satisfied they are doing okay. We give those who have been around for a long time a reprieve from scrutiny. In reality, we have to be on constant vigilance and willing to stand and make a report when something doesn't look right. It can be fatiguing and it does feel like we should trust those around us, but the scouts entrusted to our care demand that we don't take it lightly. 

We wouldn't go off on an outing without checking off the gear (first aid/communications/water/supplies/etc) we know to bring nor watching the weather reports etc. Same with watching for YPT failures. Ever vigilant. Thanks to the scouter who became suspicious. And again, don't rely on the person one-level-up to follow through to national. It is our responsibility to make the report to national. Let them do the investigation. 

8 hours ago, gblotter said:

Sometimes other things in life are more important than Scouting - and that's ok.

YES!  Yes to the whole idea of scouts have outside lives too. Thank you for that! 

I had an SM tell me that my son may not be counted as "active for six months" because he hadn't been a frequent attendee to meetings and campouts over the last six months over the fall. Never mind that he had been in this rank for two years and fall was marching band season. I replied that he should talk with my son about what he was doing and see how active he had been over the last two years instead of the last six months in this rank. My son was active during non-marching band times, going to campouts when it didn't conflict with his band/school commitments, but fall precluded him from all campouts and homework kept him out of half the meetings. The same SM relented with another scout who obtained Eagle that year. That scout had been mostly a no show for the last three years due to school commitments. 

And in my current troop, they also want to quantify what "active" means by making it a percentage numbers game. I quietly voice my concerns and thoughts on the subject to the adults when it comes up. As with most things in which I disagree with that don't line up with BSA guidelines, I don't do it in front of the scouts and I don't make ultimatums. I try my best to guide it towards what BSA states. 

However, if I see a scout get caught in one of those traps where the SM/CC/BOR whatever is trying to deny a scout their rights, I have decided I will let the scout and their parent/guardian understand their rights. I won't be party to things where the scout is denied simply because the troop/SM/CC/BOR want to change or add requirements away from what BSA sets. (Currently I'm fighting the whole BOR as a retest problem.) 

But in all seriousness. I remember what it was like as a parent. You think, once I join there's no switching. I make it clear to parents that our most fervent desire is that their child enjoys and gets the most out of their scouting experience. We want them to succeed. If that happens with our troop, that's great. And if they want to explore other troops, that's also great. The most important thing for all troops is that their scout finds a place that works for them and that it is perfectly acceptable to search for a new troop whenever the scout wishes. I remind them that every troop has a different mix, a different set of capabilities, and a different program. All of which can change over time. 

And if a scout has a parent that I can tell is going to be difficult, I'm happy if they choose another troop. And I'll work with what we have if they don't. 

I love troop visit nights. You meet the AoLs. You meet Parents. Engage with scouters. And you can realize, if you are watching closely, what people think of your troop. 

Be sure to talk up other troops too. Like they are doing great! They haven't had any emergency room trips this year. And so far no one has received any DUIs in the past six months. If the adult presses for details get vague, mutter about how you really can't talk about it legally. 

Thankfully you are capable of the task. I wish you well in your endeavor. For the rest of us, we'd probably use English in larger fonts and end words in "-o" while trying to convey some sort of unrecognizable accent. 

Though I do encourage you to kick this up the chain in whatever way you see fit. There are lots of languages that are used by scouts in BSA's many programs that should be reflected in the standard course material. Spanish is definitely one of those that is needed, since they do have the Boy Scout Handbook available in that format. Explaining what you're having to do and why, is a good way to shed light on the issue that is a great thing for National to address.   

Oh yah, forgot the OP was about wood badge.  I'll echo what other's have been saying. Don't bother with it until you feel like you want to take it. It does help with some of the folks who feel like non-beaded folk aren't worth listening too, but the true test is how you work with the scouts and scouters. Those who aren't full of the beads can tell those who have a good head on their shoulders and who are trying to improve. 

Useless or not, unless you're registered as one of the "student" roles (92U or 91U) it needs to be done so it doesn't count against the unit's training record. It's pretty important for units trying for the JTE and other such things. 

The standard BSA online training held some items I didn't know and a lot I did. IOLS was similar. The best thing the latter did was meeting folks in my area. 

But the biggest thing about the training and reading up on the Guide to Advancement etc, is that you'll spot all those pesky things that a unit does that aren't correct. I was slightly amused/horrified when our SM helped administer the training at a summer camp and came out of it with a lot of corrected views. (The standard one I correct all the time is the BoR being a "retest" of the scout.) As such, you can at least ask the innocent question, "Where can I find that in the ...." 

One of my entertainments with a fellow scouter is asking him that question. He's loaded with stuff he thinks is true. I try not to do it too frequently unless it is egregious.  

Reading this made me wonder, do they have the "Communication" MB book on audio? 

Yes, my mind goes to strange places. 

@Setonfan   I've no idea.  I can only speak to what this DE said. It makes me wonder if others are doing this and if it is inflating the numbers. 

I have no way to judge the numbers being reported. I've not even seen numbers for my own council/district. I can only report what he told me regarding my daughter. Even if it was something that was inflating the numbers, I've no idea by how much. 

Exactly. I think we'll see the shift in numbers the next two years as the program gets going and the paper registrants, if any, aren't a part of the picture as much. 

My son's old troop had two nice alternative camping structures, instead of the standard tents. They didn't use them all year round, but they had them for various uses.  

One was a carport tent. It's main use was at summer camps, either as the standard weather coverall over the tables in case of rain or as a group tent where the scouts lined up their cots and slept in a single hut. The sides were lifted out and tied down for maximum ventilation and in case of bad weather, they could be brought in for extra coverage. 

The other was rather cheap to build and used at summer camp or at Trappers in Kansas. Online I can only find it as a "Monkey Hut". Basically rebar in the ground, PVC pipes as ribs, and a tarp spread over it all with the appropriate tie downs. A self made Quonset hut for the scouts to use a group sleeping tent. And extendable with another hut added to the end. 

What sorts of alternative camping structures does anyone else use? 

Hey, everyone else's mileage may vary.  I can only point to what I felt that my council did that feels wrong. And it could truly be a glitch. Course I share this council with at least two other posters here that I know of. *eyeballs them* 

It could also be a way someone (at some level in the org) is trying to bring cub scouts in. Here, a try before you buy program. No risk at all since it is so close to the end of the year. And if you're hooked, you pay the fees for the new year. 

Honestly, I feel it's more the enticement to try it out for those parents who might be sitting on the fence. 

As I've stated, I'm good with girls in scouting. I've been amazed at the numbers for girl cub scouts being reported here on the forum and wondering how accurate it is. I've no way to judge. I've only seen one girl Webelos unit in my district and I only know of two others in the council. Not to say that there aren't more girl cub scout units in my council, but I'm not involved in them so I don't know anything other than what I hear or see. 

But in any case, after the last Webelos Woods event I was interested in a girl Webelos unit close to me. My daughter is interested in joining. I couldn't find online when they met or any information about dues, but there was a council page that directed to the pack that allows you to request further information. So I used it. It asks for the scouts name, date of birth, and current grade level along with the parent's contact information etc. I specifically stated that I needed contact from the Pack to find out additional information. I figured I'd hear back fairly soon. Right after that, it became obvious my daughter was having issues with a school transition so any further plans were put on hold until that could be resolved. 

No one from the pack contacted me. Not surprising. Things aren't always as advertised after all. In the interim I did find when and where the pack met, so I could wander over there when I felt my daughter was settled in the new school. 

Then I get a call the other day from the council office. I was worried that they were going to cancel my scout troop's camping reservations, as it is rather busy at the local area camp these days. It was from a DE in whatever role, I didn't really catch it too well. He tells me that they had a glitch in the system. (oh great, there goes my camping reservation) "Apparently," he says, "when you filled out that information request form, we processed it and now your daughter is enrolled by national in the cub scouts."  He then went on with a short discussion that I could rescind that or let it ride for the rest of the year. No payment required.  

Gosh, that sounds awfully convenient. My "shenanigan" bells went off. Awfully interesting that my daughter got registered, without a pack, without filling out any application with the three pages that go to pack/council/national. With the payment waved. Is it possible? Sure. Errors happen and certainly I've not been impressed with some of the computer related things that have happened in BSA. But it sounds too good to be true. 

So as much as I hate to, I now have a major problem with believing those numbers that are being reported. 

With all these posts, I lost sight of the original hubbub.  But there are a few things I'd like to add/repeat. 

1. I like my volunteer scouters vetted and trained. (Pretty much goes without saying, but I state the obvious at times.) 
1 additional: Online training stinks. Oh, it's okay to go over the basics, but in the field training is so much better. And having folks who truly understand things is required. I have to ask the question, "where is that written" A LOT. My fellow scouters have all sorts of undocumented policies/requirements/etc. 
2. There are times I can't afford anything, as it all goes to the needs of my family. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't like to put people into that position where they have to tell other folks they can't afford something. I know how it feels. 
3. I don't like the idea of forcing friendly helping adults to register just so that they can assist on an event, weekend, or service project etc. I do expect said friendly adults to be watched by the scouters who have been vetted and trained. 
3 additional: I support that YPT and registering is required for events longer than 72 hours, as stated in the current policy. If you can afford a long event, you can afford to register. But see #5 below.  
4. Taking YPT without registering isn't too much of a burden. Takes time, yes, and you have to have internet access, but most folks do these days. Or have a way to gain access. There are communities here in Oklahoma that don't have access to the internet outside of a library. Yah, we're that rural in places. But that's the exception and not the norm. There's always outliers. 
4 additional: I do expect that if a friendly helping adult is a regular participant in events (outside of meetings) that they should be asked to take YPT. 

My big issue. 
5. I don't like the idea of friendly helping adults being required to register. The cost is one issue, which I agree makes it sound like a money grab. It's more the fact that no matter what position they take in the scouter track (TC, SM, MBC), they now are on the books and are required to take the positional training. Which if they don't, reflects bad on the unit. And that's a real hassle to get folks to take training, especially of the scouter doesn't feel like they need it. Or doesn't want to do IOLS if on the SM track. Also I have a problem when it is expected that the new scouter has to shell out money for a uniform shirt with patches. BSA states often enough that while the uniform is not required, you should be in uniform anyway. 

Scouters in our pack/troop pay their own. Unless the upper echelon get some kind of secret deal and a decoder ring I'm not aware of.