FireStone

Certainly. I'm not happy with the survey and how it was conducted either. But a bad survey doesn't mean there's no support for girls in Scouting. The idea that it's "all lies" is simply not true.

What minority? What data says that either opinion was the minority opinion?

Agreed. I keep reading that no one wanted this. I guess when local scouters (myself included) were writing letters and making phone calls to advocate for this years ago, we just imagined doing all of that. When my committee sat around a table and did an informal "show of hands" poll of who was in favor of this and 7 out of 8 of us raised our hands, I guess that was just my imagination. The apparent notion that people wanting this simply don't exist is baffling. I don't have any data to show that it was the majority opinion, but I also don't see how anyone can believe that it being a popular opinion is "all lies".

If they did one book with combined photos of boys and girls, the complaints here would be the same. I'm honestly surprised that there isn't more support for separate books from the single-gender-scouting crowd. This supports the idea of separate troops entirely, doesn't it? A single merged book looks more like co-ed scouting.

This kind of is the big story right now. Not sure why anyone would expect any different coverage. In fact I think it would be weird if it were done any differently.

We're among the group of adults in kids' lives who might know something about kids before their own parents do. Coaches, teachers, similarly are in these same positions. We see kids outside of their homes, away from their parents where they might do and say things that they wouldn't disclose in front of their parents. The bottom line for me is that I'm not going to put myself in a position of possibly disclosing something to a parent that a scout hasn't already disclosed. It doesn't help the kid if I do that, and it might even harm the kid. Such was the case here, https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/gay-student-outed-coaches-invasion-of-privacy_n_3398368.html where a student's relationship with her mother severely deteriorated after coaches informed the mother that the girl was gay, and she even attempted suicide. Apparently the consensus here seems to be to immediately go to the parents. I'm opposed to that. I'll go to the parents at the appropriate time, but not before I've discussed the matter with the scout, and not if if I feel the circumstances would possibly be worsened if I did. At the end of the day, everyone is going to do what they feel is right until the BSA gives us clear guidance on these matters.

No one said you have to explain anything. I've been referencing the public school model (local to me anyway) and how they handle it, and I think it's a good approach. Respect the wishes of the kid, if questions come up, refer said questions appropriately to counselors, staff, parents, etc. If you feel compelled to dive into such a broad discussion on gender when asked to simply refer to a Scout by a different name, I guess that's your choice. But I wouldn't recommend it. Certainly wouldn't be what I would do.

I'm not picking and choosing anything. There is nothing dishonest about coming to grips with telling their parents about their sexual orientation or gender identity and doing so at a time that they are comfortable with. There is no violation of the Scout Law in that.

Why then was there no concern about Cub books being co-ed in terms of photos and representations? Those packs/dens are also supposed to be separate, right? It's such a weird thing to bother with. Either it's a problem or it's not. And yet we get this seemingly split perspective on it from National. Or maybe that makes total sense considering the source. 😅

Not to their parents necessarily. From what my wife has told me, kids are far more likely to openly discuss their sexual orientation or gender identity among friends and even teachers than they are parents. There's a lot of baggage that goes with coming out to their parents. That's a big life-changing event. Come out to a friend or teacher and if it doesn't go well, that's a relationship that you don't have to live with forever. Come out to your parents and not get the reaction you hoped for, and that's entirely different.

Is there any documented maximum allowable time from when a SM conference is requested to when one of given to the Scout? I'm not aware of anything but wondering if it's written somewhere. Like "a troop must make a conference date/time available to the Scout within no more than 60 days from request" or something like that?

EDITED TO ADD: Upon further information provided, my concern is invalid.

That was never rational, not then, not ever. And you're talking about abuse. What we're discussing here is not. No one is saying "what happens in school stays in school." Our teachers are being directed to not out kids when it comes to gender identity and sexual orientation. It's not their job to do so, and it's overstepping into territory that they have no business in, specifically that of making life-changing declarations to parents about their kids when those kids aren't ready to face their parents with yet. They can talk to parents about whatever name their kid has asked to be referred to. They can't say "Your kid told me they're gay/trans/whatever." I think I'm in the same role. It's not my role to potentially out a kid. I'm not saying "what happens in scouts stays in scouts" either. But I'm not jumping on the phone to mom and dad the minute a kid confides in members of the pack or troop something about their gender identity or sexuality. Here's a crazy idea. How about the first person we talk to about this is, oh, I don't know, maybe.. the Scout? And I'm not suggesting an awkward YPT-landmine conversation either. But at least the courtesy of simply asking the Scout if it is alright with them that I discuss the matter with their parents.

You really believe parents would be the first to know? Most kids find it hardest to come out to their parents more than anyone else. There is a myriad of data and information out there about this, and piles of articles about helping kids come out to their parents, for the very reason that is is so intimidating, stressful, and challenging. My wife and my mother (also a life-long teacher) have had students confide in them about their sexuality long before they were able to do so with their parents. No one is saying make the parents last to know. Just not to put Scouting volunteers in the position of being the ones revealing these things to parents when it's not our place to do so. Kids should decide when and how their parents hear these things, not us. How is that extreme? I thought we were disagreeing agreeably. Until you declared that any opinion contrary to yours was not "normal" or "rational". Some old allegory about a black pot and a kettle comes to mind...

It's not how it's done here, but hypothetically if the student were present, the same rules would still apply for the teacher. Don't disclose anything about gender identity or sexual orientation revelations by the student. Simply say that Johnny has asked to be called "Pat", and that staff have respected that request.

A student wouldn't be at a parent/teacher conference. But if it comes up at a conference that Johnny is referred to as Pat, teachers are advised to simply inform parents that they abide by students' requests to be called a different name if requested in earnest. They don't need to say anything about any other specifics, any revelations the student may have made to that teacher, to other students, etc. In fact, the directive from administrators in my wife's school district is that they are forbidden to disclose anything about that stuff with parents, like any disclosures about sexual orientation, gender identity, etc. They advise the parents discuss the name identity subject directly with their son/daughter, or they can refer them to the school's counselors if additional questions arise.

What if the kid hasn't come out to their parents with their gender identity? Their sexual orientation? Is it our place to potentially "out" a kid to their parents? I don't think we should have any role in that dynamic between a youth and their parents. That's a monumental moment for people, revealing something like that to their parents. Many kids come out to friends, teachers, other adults before their parents because it's such a stressful and intimidating thing to do. Who are we to reveal that info to parents, even if it is inadvertent? And save it with the "normal" and "rational" comments. No one here isn't "normal" for having a differing opinion. Certainly not when it comes to areas of discussion that neither of us are experts/professionals in.

That's not what the mental health pros are saying, not in the training they are providing to teachers in my area, so I'm going to go with them on this one.

I'm kind of assuming here, but my understanding is that you're not a mental health professional, is that right? Because what you are calling "abuse" is actually what mental health professionals are advising teachers here in NJ to do with students who identify as a gender other than their birth gender, and is prescribed as the best course of action for a student's mental health.

I just asked my middle school teacher wife, her having just gone through a whole training session on gender identity. She was told that legally (here in NJ at least) teachers are required by law to refer to a student by the gender that they identify as. They do not have to talk to the parents (it's in line with "outing" a student and teachers aren't allowed to do that), or if a parent asks that they refer to their child as one gender and the student asks to be referred to as another gender, they have to defer to the student's wishes. Now that's public school, not scouting. But an interesting perspective on this issue.

Weeks, preferably. A month is even reasonable. I was referring specifically to the "must be done on a camping trip" requirement when I mentioned adding time, which if adhered to could add months, sometimes several months, to a Scout's advancement path. As is the case in the original poster's son's predicament, not being able to get a conference until November under this policy. What if said Scout gets sick the week of that November trip? Now it's December at best, if the Troop camps every month. If they don't, January? February? See where I'm going with this? If there is flexibility in this policy, I'm ok with it. But it sounds like there isn't. SM conferences must be done on camping trips in this particular unit. That's too restrictive. In theory it might sound ok, but in practice it will cause a lot of problems.

I don't see the need to "lighten up" on something that arbitrarily adds time time to advancement. It's not about any disrecpect of the SM's time. That's why the clause is there for ASMs to take conferences, when the SM can't do it. If an SM wants to hold conferences outside of meetings, make more of a thing of it, fine. But tying it to a specific event, one that could be at least a month (or in some units a few months) away, that's not right.

So hypothetically, what happens when a Scout misses their Eagle deadline by a couple of weeks or months and then in looking back through the records it is noted that a SM conference was delayed for some time because of this unusual unit policy? Seems like a position I wouldn't want to put myself in as a leader to possibly have had a hand in that. Scouts are responsible for their own timeline and keeping track of the calendar for advancement, making sure they give themselves adequate time to advance. Arbitrarily throwing in an unofficial policy that will delay advancement is not something any unit should be doing. I know every unit is unique and everyone does things a little differently. But units go too far when it is something like this that can mess with everything that comes after, possibly adding several months to the timeline and potentially costing a Scout their intended rank.

He already did, it was denied.

We're doing the same here, using the new "Scout Me In" stuff in local stores, libraries, etc. In trying to maximize exposure with limited budget, doing a short print run of color flyers that can be posted in public places puts a lot of eyes on our Pack info without doing a 1-flyer-1-family ratio. We targeted local places with high traffic and/or high numbers of kids and parents, like the community center, libraries, ice cream shops, supermarkets, etc. We're putting up posters in schools (5 schools, 5 posters, it's fairly inexpensive), digital flyers are send home through the school district "virtual backback" system, and we do a lot with social media and facebook especially.