Jameson76

Don't forget the turkey leg eating contest...

26 minutes ago, qwazse said:

@bearess, I was a little bit tongue (fingers?) in cheek. GS/USA's strength and simultaneous weakness is its segregation. On backpacking trips, I've had to break my venturers coming from GS troops from the habit of deferring to boys. In my case, this happens mostly during land navigation. They would literally cluster on opposite sides of the trail when they reached a crossing. That is the first habit that needs to be broken, because one group would have the right idea and the other the "2 extra miles" idea. And, if the first group cedes to the second, I would have no problem letting them walk out those extra miles. In other instances the girls would take point. E.g. cooking supper or doing dishes. The boys would play dumb, which I found that totally unacceptable. Most of the boys knew full well how to cook and the girls needed to firmly request their participation.

That said, the fact that the girls knew to take point and really dive in is a credit to their training. It just took venturing to let them know in deeds rather than words that they deserved a seat at the "boy's" table.

So, I don't think @Jameson76 is wrong. A sex-segregated Scouts USA has the potential to replicate GS\USA's foibles. As it stands, the only thing that BSA4G is offering different from GS/USA, is the required participation in outdoor activity for advancement. Where I disagree with him: I don't treat it as a foregone conclusion. There is potential for leaders of BSA4G units to deliver on the promise of scouting in a way that motivates traditional units to do the same.

My intended poke at the current expectations may have been missed, yes there will be impact.  I hope it will it not end up a repeat of ISP in the 70's.

Listening to the CSE and Reading the FAQ this is the blanket statement - 

• Q: Will girls have to meet the same requirement to achieve Eagle Scout? 
• Yes. Young women will have the opportunity to earn the Eagle Scout rank by meeting the same criteria and achievements as young men.

To your point and to many who have made the point, I think this is a simplistic view to assume that things will not change.  Who can predict what the final "product" will look like.  If, for example, summer camps are not game planning 2019 and beyond they are behind the curve.  Will the merit badges that fill up now be the same as what the revised population of the Boy Scouts...sorry Scouts USA wants/seeks? 

There will likely be some push back and adjustment on some requirements.  One challenge may be some related to outdoor and camping.  Will new girl troops be able to offer enough outings and secure enough female adults to have these?  Our unit goes on 13 outdoor events in a year, will a new troop be able to quickly offer that depth?  Not saying they will not, but that could be an issue.  Even with seasoned troops that is a challenge sometimes, though more for attendance than cancelled outings.  If the hope (plan??) is for these multitude of new units that could tax resources.

On 6/14/2018 at 12:27 AM, shortridge said:

That will be correct. BSA does not yet have a program covering those topics “specifically for girls,” and won’t until Feb. 1, 2019. Once that date rolls around, BSA will be the “largest national organization” to do so.

You need to get on-board with the expected offerings, the BSA program will not be "specifically for girls"...the BSA program will be the same for Boys and Girls and there will be NO CHANGES to the current program with the addition of girls to the program

The FAQ (15+ pages I might add) on Family Scouting states that and if it says it is so...it is so

Oh where to begin:

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader over 21 must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and program-appropriate supervision must always be provided.

Maybe....

We provide for the patrols cooking gear, water bladder, stove, lanterns, tarps, table, fire bag.  Scouts provide everything else

In the trailer we carry consumables; propane, mantles, trash bags, whatnot.  Also we have dutch ovens as needed

1 hour ago, gblotter said:

With troops of 12-13 year-old boys and 12-13 year-old girls in the same summer camp environment, tell me which will be called out for being disruptive and distracting, and which will be praised for being focused and attentive?

This has been discussed within our troop.  Our go forward is to be a single gender, no linked option.  Only council / inter troop items we have is summer camp.  Already no district or council camporees.  We will take summer camps (we do 2 camps) 1 year at a time.  If significant program changes occur, then we will explore other options for summer.  

1 hour ago, oldbuzzard said:

How so? Plenty of scouts don't change clothes on campouts or change in sleeping bags. Other issues  could go to known adult leaders. From a PL perspective, I need to talk to SM/ASM X should always be honored. The adult leader can always push back on frivolous requests, regardless of cause. Yes in a hypothetical emergency situation it could be an issue but in every day situations where is the surprise?

The surprise was not so much the scouts I was referring to.  You may be assuming a 100% enlightened and welcoming group of parents, not saying they may not be, but there could be some pushback in the tenting case.  While we work to provide program to youth, those youth are part of a family, that does have to be considered.  There are a myriad of potential items to consider so there are in fact no surprises.   This is the real world, and not a sociology class.

20 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

Different question.    hopefully an easier one.    where  will a trans ( female to male ) scout tent?   

with the girls patrol? then we are not treating her/him as a boy. 

  the boys? scary   

  alone?   ostracizing 

An intriguing question.  If they identify as a male, you would treat as a male, but with tenting if not all are looped in could be a surprise.  Luckily there are hammocks

Definitely a teachable moment.  Good effort and initiative, not so good a result.  I would suggest a redo.  Light overspray of the current number.  then begin again

As you work with them on correcting maybe some opportunity for them to develop a brief How To on tent numbering

Agree with the need to GO and see what they need, not wait at some roundtable or meeting to tell them what they need.  Most leaders could care less about a listening meeting or an input meeting or a conversation and input meeting.  

If truly interested plan to spend some time on the road and go see the units and talk with the leaders at their meetings.   Just listen.  Hear what their successes are and hear what they may be struggling with.  You note you are concentrating with training, advancement, camping promotions, and civic service functions.  That is a target rich environment.  Also go more than once.

While roundtables can play a role, scouting happens at the unit where it is meeting or going camping.  That is where the answers lie.  Not at an adult meeting.

Agree that it is local and at more importantly at the unit level.  All else is window dressing.

The divide (rift??) between National/Region/Council/District and the local units seems to be a might wider at times.  There is a lot of top down directives, etc.  Is the Council there to support the units or does the Council seem to think they are where it's at.  With our unit we seem to be fine with little interaction from the council.  Close to 100 Scouts, High adventure every year, 13 outings per year, 10+ Eagles achieved each year.  Our discussion has been how can we support Scouting locally outside the unit without the morass of the district and the council.  We have not been able to solve the conundrum.  As a note our unit does not attend the district camporees or council encampments.  Past years we did, but those were the least attended events.  The Scouts asked do we have to attend these?  The choice was theirs and we have moved on. 

The Council Commissioner spoke with me on this, they asked why we did not attend such events.  I explained that the program offered at these was not engaging to our troop.  They wanted to know if we had tried to get involved and get it changed.  We had but the folks that ran the district ones were less than eager to look at changes.  So we went backpacking.

Agree that the first question that should/needs to be asked at a BOR is are you having fun.  The rest is bonus material

Most are good

Will go with the most recent.  We were at summer camp last week, had 40+ scouts attending.  Thursday night after the afternoon offsite activities we cooked cobbler and the Boy Scouts organized up a cornhole tournament.  The leaders provided the stuff,  Boy Scouts mixed, and cooked.  It was getting dusk, the cobbler was getting close to complete.  I did a head count as the leaders stood off to one side.  All the scouts were there, no phones, just a group of Boy Scouts, in the woods, week coming to a close, enjoying the evening.

25 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

I am supposed to suspend my belief in basic biology and go along with someones totally subjective feelings about what gender they are?    

On 6/14/2018 at 5:14 PM, Saltface said:

Still no definitive report on the results of the internal survey.

On 6/14/2018 at 5:14 PM, Saltface said:

Q: What research did the BSA conduct that informed this decision? 
To inform this decision, the Boy Scouts of America conducted extensive research. The BSA also  evaluated input from thousands of volunteers who participated in the nationwide family listening sessions. 
The results were overwhelmingly positive and supported the decision to welcome girls into Cub  Scouts and provide a path to earn the Eagle Scout rank. The research found that parents not  involved with Scouting showed high interest in getting their daughters signed up for programs like  Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, with 90 percent expressing interest in a program like Cub Scouts and  87 percent expressing interest in a program like Boy Scouts.

This has been BSA's stock answer - 

The research found that parents not  involved with Scouting showed high interest in getting their daughters signed up for programs like  Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, with 90 percent expressing interest in a program like Cub Scouts and  87 percent expressing interest in a program like Boy Scouts.

Now, note the subtle wording of the results "LIKE".  They did not say they would join BSA, just a program LIKE the BSA.  Also as we have not seen the actual questions, it is very easy to put in questions that will generate the needed results

SIDENOTE - Was at our Council Camp last week, troop had a great week.  Anyway, we have a leaders dinner on Thursday, literally 200 Scout leaders that are actually involved in Scouting at an actual camp event with actual Scouts.  The Scout Executive...sorry CEO of the Council was there, the Council President was there, a litany of the paid executive staff was there, some key volunteers, the CEO and Prez spoke, but ZERO mention of the program changes and updates, no mention of how these will impact camp operations next year and no time for questions or input

If the changes have this groundswell of support and people clamoring to join, why not own it, let us know what plans and support are in place.  You had an engaged group, but they are scared to death to mention it to actual Scouters.

The divide between National, Regional, council based paid staff, key volunteers AND those of us who are merely (in their view) working with units (the great unwashed) grows each day

On 6/16/2018 at 4:43 PM, The Latin Scot said:

Mercy. It's that kind of ideology that breaks my heart; gender is NOT "fluid" yet society is becoming increasingly hostile towards those who still recognize this, while trying to force this suggestion on increasingly younger age groups. I was told at one preschool - preschool, mind you! - that as a teacher I could not "assume that all boys will grow up to be men, nor that all girls would grow up to be women," and my language in the classroom was supposed to reflect what they called a "non-gender bias." Of course I totally ignored that policy, and spoke against it whenever I could and to whomever's attention I could get. Luckily enough parents were on board that we were able to over-turn that mandate, but who knows when the tide will turn against us? 

I don't believe gender is a choice, nor that it is randomly factored into our birth. I think it's something that has always been an essential part of us, and it's not something we can change, whatever we may do to our bodies to convince us otheItrwise. But the fact that the BSA now holds that a child can participate in Scouting as whichever gender they choose is one of the BIGGEST frustrations I have with the direction this organization is heading. 

It's amazing isn't it that someone (gotta be gender neutral here)

under 18:

• Cannot enter into a contract, buy a drink, own a gun, rent a car, rent a hotel room, serve in the military, vote

under 16:

• Cannot drive a car, fly unaccompanied, must attend school, be out after certain hours alone, get married (depends on state)

All of this is because we as a society have concluded that at these young ages, they may not have the needed maturity and life experience to be fully responsible for these decisions...YET when it comes to gender identity, let it roll, they can decide away.  If one questions this, you are are discriminatory

Our group is still leaving and returning the same flights, but now they are going to do various 2 and 3 day hikes in Colorado.  Drummed up some contacts, friends, etc but they have salvaged a trip.

2 minutes ago, David CO said:

I agree that Timmy shouldn't be camping. He was small for his age and very clumsy. Barely a week went by that he didn't fall into a well, get stuck on the edge of a cliff, or some such thing. The poor boy would have never lived to see puberty if it wasn't for his dog.

 

1 minute ago, Terasec said:

at some point overnight camping should have been a requirement to earn such badge,

But but...it's dark and scary out there, and little Timmy has a lot to do, and the cell phone reception is weak, and toilets are scarce, and there was soccer.....

It's the arms race amongst Scout groups...in this corner the not broadly understood GSUSA "Gold Award"...and in this corner the gold standard of youth awards the BSA "Eagle Scout".  Which will be deemed Best In Class, which will corner the market, and more importantly, which will generate more revenue for their organization??

21 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

At summer camp, I had some down time while the boys were at their merit badges and I was the only one at our site, sitting in a chair reading a book.  One scout came back to the site.  Does one of us have to leave?

I think the arguments that this is mostly about BSA doing CYA for BSA and damn the scouters is correct.

There's no question that safe scouting and YPT rules need to be in place.  Good rules protect scouts and scouters.  When you make the rules impossible to follow, don't be surprised when it does further damage to the program.

I guess I should stop delaying buying that umbrella policy since BSA is setting us up as the Fall Guy for any issues.  One of our ASMs already talked to me about this.

Good grief, I just want to work with a fun program that safely helps boys develop skills for adulthood.

It can be a conundrum and if you start going down YPT and G2SS rabbit holes, second guessing yourself, and subscribing to the "McCarthyesque" YPT feeling that everyone is a predator, you may likely never leave the house and attend a scout meeting or event.

The buddy thing is great and useful, but often different Scouts have different interests and class schedules at summer camp.  The intent is for the boys to have a buddy, yet as many things that happen in the real world, out in the mud and the weeds, that may not be the case 100% of the time

We (our unit) definitely works under the guise of doing the best we can, abiding as closely as possible to rules and regs, and working to have a fun program and develop the leadership and citizenship skills for the young men.

Just last night I had a scout who wanted to review his Eagle project and also look over some merit badges.  We set it up via e-mail with mom and SM in copy.  He drove to the house, (wife was home at the time) we met in the driveway in clear view of by the garage (nice and shady), and completed the work.  You do what is needed in the spirit and intent of the YPT and G2SS to deliver the program.

Also I do have an umbrella policy. (and some nice umbrellas on the deck)

I would assume that with the wide swath of burn across the ranch, the sadly the remaining backcountry treks for 2018 (those not already cancelled) will at best be problematic

19 minutes ago, Buggie said:

(has a nightmare of animatronic BP chasing him saying, "and now for you scoutmasters....")

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think that was just a money thing.  (What else is new?)  I believe they were renting the property in Dallas, so now they are no longer paying that rent, and instead they improved their own property and can keep the revenue from the museum for themselves.  (Where it will naturally be used to keep our registration fees from increasing again, cough cough.) Of course the fire is interrupting that, but major fires happen in cities too, just not as often as they used to.

Official line is that it was the amount of visitors.  As was discussed I guess it depends on the why of the museum.  If to promote BSA and be visible to everyone, Dallas is good.  If just another box to check from National...yeah I guess we gotta have a museum, then why not Philmont

Candidly I do not think they promoted it or made it a "Destination".  I did visit the Dallas one a few years back.  Good mementos and items.  Animatronic Baden Powell was might creepy

1 hour ago, Ranman328 said:

Recently, someone told the DE how much money our Troop had in the bank and they sent an email to our Troop's key 3 asking that we donate an additional $2,000.00 to the FOS.  I politely declined and informed them that the money in our Troop bank account was not their business and that the Scouts worked for that money.  

That DE would not be welcome any longer at any or our functions, we would be Scoutlike (as much as possible) in that communication.  Sounds like you are doing fine without his help.