Jameson76

21 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Do I detect sarcasm?

Yep...and some sadness

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

20 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Ironic comparison, because I was one who finished off my last Eagle-required merit badge at the end of December 1973 and had my EBOR and ECOH in early 1974.

Never expected that I'd be reliving that experience in such a literal way.

Same - Richard Nixon signed my Eagle certificate 😁

6 minutes ago, Saltface said:

I'm generally opposed to 13 year old Eagles, but I'm going to find myself mentoring a few next year. These boys won't get the chance to lollygag through Star and Life like their brothers did. I'm not going to push anyone through an Eagle mill, but if the boys want it, we're going to have to attack this thing fiercely.

Changing and shifting requirements can inspire.  There were many that hustled up at the end of 1973 to get Eagle before a great new scouting mode was fully rolled out, suspect it will be similar with LDS departure

Well...to be candid the challenge is often how to disprove the negative, how to "un-ring" a bell

A person can accuse someone, then the burden of proof is on the accused to prove their innocence.  What was outlined in the starting comment, can have the words TEXT changed for CONVERSATION and you would still be in a He Said / She Said.  Nothing really new, the ONE on ONE contact issues can be phone, in a tent, in a car, on text, or a conversation in full view of many people.

Leaders needs to know their scouts and where the pitfalls may be

8 hours ago, wisihalacon said:

I may also need to contact the head of Tupelo Lodge to put an end to these shenanigans.

5 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Ya, but how many Eagles did we have in 1912? Last year we had something like 56,000 - over 1,000 a week. I would assume that we will probably have a few dozen if not a few hundred girls that are all approved at the same time by the National Advancement Program Team. I would think that BSA would want to discourage Troops from trying to game the system by having a single first and instead simply confirm that all applicants during XXX period will be approved by the NAPT on the same day ; thereby reducing the rush to be the first to pass their BOR.

Looks like 23 in 1912

For those wondering, the big jump in 1973 (almost 47,000) was the result of the impending changes for the much hyped changes to scouting rolled out in 1971 (sound familiar).  Did not attain that number again until 1999

The updates  in 70's changed the number of merit badges from 21 - 24, took out camping and cooking, introduced skill awards, and had my personal favorite recommendation within the scout book, that if you are out on a hike and get lost, to find your way you ask a policeman...urban scouting at it's pinnacle

More detail

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/03/01/number-of-eagle-scouts-per-year/

1 minute ago, Oldscout448 said:

Roofing done by scouts ?!    I can only assume that your roof is less than five feet high

We would put out airbags...oh and ropes, lots of ropes

13 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Questions pertaining to joint/coed den activities vs single den (single gender) den activities.

Should extracurricular activities be gender-based. I.e. Pinewood derby - should there be a girl winner and a boy winner or just a pack winner? How about best in show awards for the best looking cars, gender or pack based?

We have to try and challenge / engage the scouts to think and do things, be creative.

• Recent outing we gave the patrols (there were 3 on this outing) 3 cartons, a roll of duct tape, and some plastic sheeting with the instructions to build a boat for one person to paddle out around a buoy.  They had an hour and half.  One literally built a kayak like boat that worked well.  The others had a boat, but not as successful
• On another outing the patrols had to build a bridge, that could be moved, and span a space.  They built the bridges then they had to move them to the ditch (about 14' across as I recall) and walk the space.  Some were sadly not up to the task
• On another we gave them 50 popsicle sticks, some dental floss, some bandaids, and they had to construct a tower that could support a small cup full of water.  One group melted some of the bandaids to make a glue

Through some effective programming a unit can incorporate pride of craft into activities with nominal rewards

I am still trying to get the troop interested in Roofing Merit badge at my house

9 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

 they need the bodies.

28 minutes ago, skeptic said:

One of the frustrating issues I have had over the past five years or so of participation in this forum is that so often we want to immediately focus on the negatives that may or may not exist.  Is that necessarily the best way to respond?  If a play does not work in organized sports, do you simply say it is hopeless, or do you find a variant or completely new option?  Most barriers are surmountable, though many may be better if gone around.  The point is to score.  In our case, the ultimate goal is to offer the best elements of Scouting to the greatest amount of youth that we can.  There is a reason that there is the annoying, but in a way complementary, slur; "oh you are such a Boy Scout" or other similar variants of this.  Scouting, at its best, makes society and those of us within it better.

So why not look at the challenges we are given as that, challenges, rather than immediately finding reasons it cannot work.  My grandfather used to say to me fairly often, "Can't never could do anything!".  Think about it before you jump to the worst scenarios.  The positive is still there, but we may need to find alternate routes.

I would agree if this was in fact a sports thing, in that as you correctly noted - If a play does not work in organized sports, do you simply say it is hopeless, or do you find a variant or completely new option? You of course try different options, as the rules and playing field are not changing as you are playing.  Yes there are always slight updates and technology changes, but I played golf with my dad, and I play with my son.  Rules are basically the same, goals are the same.

Looking at the Boy Scouts, the aims and mission (though to be clear the "mission" statement is not original canon) appear to be the same, and we hope the methods will stay the same.  But the rules to get there seem to be fluid, and honestly not 100% sure about the aims and methods, there is the National meeting coming up.  I can only speak for myself, but I wonder, what is next?  At the unit level we will continue as we have, but forces beyond our control may enact change upon us.

The adding girls is a study of fluidity in an of itself.  First is was girl packs / boy packs / single gender dens in the same pack - and for the Boy Scouts a separate or complimentary program with Girl and Boy only units.  Then they quietly slipped in "Linked" troops.  Then many of the early adopter packs could not get the needed numbers, but who cares, sign em up.  Then the convoluted name change announcement, and clarifying announcement, and clarifying statements about the announcement.  Also 20% of the BSA is taking their ball and heading home in the next 18 months.

Locally the Greenbar team just wrapped up the planning through July 2019.  Looks like good stuff, lots of fun and adventures.  We have over 50 Star and Life Scouts, many discussing the path to Eagle.  We have several EBOR's next couple of weeks, high adventure trips, summer camps etc.  We are continuing to move forward and deliver fun program.  That being said, there are storm clouds out there, hopefully we will be above the flash flood marks, one can never tell.

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

We Scout 12-7-365

We Boy Scout 12-7-365

(just stirring the pot)

28 minutes ago, FireStone said:

That is definitely a part of the negativity towards the new number that I've seen. Going to a 3-digit number seems like a major downgrade for some folks. 

I like our 3-digit number. I think regardless of the number, it's all about what you do with it and how you show pride in it that determines how people will feel about it. Unfortunately a lot of folks in my unit won't even try to embrace the official number so it will never be accepted by some. 

It's all in how you phrase your number

There is a Troop 5-0 in Hawaii (book em Danno)

13 minutes ago, David CO said:

It makes perfect sense that they might ask you guys for help. Nobody wants to see them bend over to pick up trash.

But seriously, I did lifeguard duties at the YMCA a few times when a local naturist group rented out the pool. It is really not very exciting once the novelty of it wears off. Before you ask, lifeguards are required by code to wear their traditional red/white lifeguard uniforms while on duty, regardless of how the swimmers are attired.

 

If you have seen one shirt that needs ironing...you've seen them all

ALSO

What is seen, can never be unseen

24 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

 greeted with a stake knife through the heart. 

So...you are a Vampire??

14 minutes ago, PACAN said:

In looking at various forums/sites it is interesting that there are posts such as Only 2% LDS in our council, only affects 200 scouts in our council, no big deal here business as usual, scouts will just roll into non LDS troops, the girls will make up for all the losses etc .  

Heads in the sand....If you don't think this decision will not adversely affect all councils and individual units think some more.   

Whistling past the graveyard - this affects 425,000 Scouts - roughly 20% of BSA...it will have an impact

• 1) Membership fees - we can assume these will go up from $33 to close to $40 per member to cover, assuming National does not trim overhead
• 2) Unit charter fees - Currently (I think) around $40 - that will likely go up to close to $50 to cover
• 3) Attendance at High Adventure - Specifically the Summit (which is the large cash drain on BSA) and no way they are getting close to their 50K attendees needed annually

To assume that potential increase in membership from Girls joining will offset is ludicrous

40 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

My basic premise here is if you want to solve a problem, you focus on solving the problem.  The approach in the BSA to solving a problem usually seems to be a revamp of a training, an article in Scouting magazine, JTE, or some new rule.  I think we need to be more proactive than that.

Survey...you forgot to mention a survey...there's always a survey

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It seems that some people are squeamish about perceived discrimination against girls with separate Troops.  I'm not sure I understand it and think it would be good to discuss so we can be prepared to support or defend BSA's policy of separate male and female troops as needed.  Thanks!

It is a good question and topic

The base of the desire for single gender units is that Boys and Girls learn, mature,  and interact socially differently.  There is great value to give Boys and Girls an opportunity to work together in single gender groups.  At this time there are coed leadership and association opportunities within Schools, churches, summer swim teams, academic teams, community organizations, private camps, etc.  The Boy Scouts of America can provide one of the few areas where youth can work in a single gender environment that is not sports focused.

Also - the Girls Scouts of America...in their own statement about BSA opening up to girls makes the point themselves:

“We believe strongly in the importance of the all-girl, girl-led, and girl-friendly environment that Girl Scouts provides, which creates a free space for girls to learn and thrive.”

I can agree on that sentiment and hope that it can be applied to the program for 11 - 17 year old youth, currently known as Boy Scouts

7 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

I hope you are wrong but I absolutely can see that happening. I have a hunch this whole thing has already been planned out.

A secret giant white board and visio flow chart in a small dark office in Irving, TX

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Here is the concern I am hearing.  I would ask our forum lawyers for input if this is really a risk.

Under 1 CO: Troop 111 boys has the best equipment, multiple trips a year, etc.  Troop 111 girls has crappy equipment, rarely takes trips, etc.  Let’s say the CO provides or is perceived to provide more help to the Boys Troop than the Girls Troop.  Then a girl could sue stating discrimination due to gender.  she would point out the equipment differences, the trip difference, the “favoritism”.  

I don’t see this as common as any CO adding a linked girls Troop should have plans to ensure no discrimination. That said this is the concern I have heard about the separate but equal plan.  Given the funding and CO are typically not government organizations I’m not sure this is really a risk.

My thought is not so much the discrimination standpoint, as honestly the majority of CO's primary provision of material support is in the way of meeting space, access to the grounds, etc.  Not too many of them (though some do) write a check each year.  If they do that is easily balanced.  Your point on equipment is more easily handled / explained as troops with longer tenure will have more stuff accumulated

The point of contention will likely be (as you note) the opportunity available in Old School Boy Scout troop with it's 13 outings per year, 50 Boy Scouts, institutional knowledge, 30+ year traditions, and actual field knowledge VERSUS the newly formed Girls troop with 6 members and trying to figure out how to organize a trip and more importantly.. (wait for it) how to HAVE FUN on a weekend outing.  The girls will want to join (be enabled that opportunity) but the Boy Scout troop will be able to indicate, not an option.  The girls will then likely file suit against BSA for equal access and National will update and allow a coed option

Challenge and real rub will come when National allows the coed option but it is not mandated.  Girls want to join Old School troop for all the opportunities they offer, but the troop desires to stay single gender.  That will trigger the discrimination claims and then hilarity will ensue and most likely in the not to distant future coed will not be an option but will be part of the program.  Units will have to deal with it, also the families that will come with it.

Right or wrong, love it or hate it, want it or not...in 3 to 5 years the program of the Boy Scouts of America for 11 -17 year old boys formerly known as the Boy Scouts of America will be greatly altered in appearance and operation.  Yes the mission and goals will hopefully remain, but it will have much different vibe.

14 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Now that the LDS have announced their intention to leave, the move to co-ed could happen as early as the NAM in a couple of weeks.  "We've heard from the field and parents that our linked troops idea is unworkable and that they'd prefer to be co-ed.  Therefore, blah, blah, blah."

There will be a survey.....

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I continue to believe though that the retention problem stems from crappy programming.  It's made worse because the BSA doesn't really have a plan for the 14-17 year old crowd.  

I think at the unit level you have to provide program that meets the different needs  You can all go on the outing, but they each can have the opportunity to participate as they need  Older scouts may camp apart a bit  Also with HS schedules they may want to crash in the afternoon.  We go to the lake and do tubing, older scouts may get a rougher ride  We go backpacking and look for loop options  Younger less experience do a 4 mile while older guys do a 9 mile .  Also do high adventure every summer in addition to camps to keep older scouts engaged  

Last point is understand you may not see them for a season.  That is what it is, welcome them when they are there

Engaging older scouts in solely on the local units

14 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

National Annual Meeting

http://nam.scouting.org/Activities/Events/Sessions.aspx

Strategic Initiatives 

Thursday, 10:45 a.m. – 12:00 p.m.

After the Business Meeting, join us for a discussion of Strategic Initiatives that will help chart the course for the movement’s future.  Discussions will include an update of the Game Plan, Youth Protection efforts, and information on the progress of Family Scouting. There will also be time for questions and answers.

 

 

They are really committed to this effort, I see that an WHOLE Hour and 15 minutes is allotted, and yes there will be time for questions so you know this will be an in depth disussion

14 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Looking at all the discussion of Family Scouting, adding girls may be just an intermediate step. IMO, National's long game plan is to switch from recruiting individual scouts to their whole families - all in the family would be on the books as members whether they participate or not, similar to the Y.  Increased headcount and revenue.

My $0.02

P.S. Our leaders may have lost their way but at the unit level, we are doing are best to faithfully delivering the program to the scouts we have.

 

In talking with the Boy Scouts in our troop, they are meh about girls joining BSA.....hey separate troops, we don't typically camp with other units, do council events, and are not really camporee people...so except for summer camp, minimal impact.

They did / have asked what's the deal with Family Scouting / Camping?  Does this mean Mom and Dad will come on outings?  Isn't one the fun parts of scouting NOT having the parents and siblings along?  As leaders our input is we do not plan any changes and will continue to execute a fun and challenging program.  

The Family Scouting is the sort of the unknown lurking in the shadows.  I would tend to agree, little Johnny signs up and EVERYBODY signs up

6 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Here's the take from the Deseret News.  It looks like the target for recruiting girls is about 500,000 to break even.

So...BSA will need 10,000 NEW Scouts per state to break even from the LDS departure.  With 272 councils each one will need to add 1,838 new BS4G participants.  Also there will be a need for some yet undetermined number to backfill those that age out, normal attrition, and then to replace those who vote with their feet.

Assume there will be an overhead staffing reduction plan at BSA National / Regional to maintain the corporate cost ratios

11 minutes ago, SSScout said:

,Weeeeelllll , in the book I quote,  "swim suit" is mentioned as a possible use (use more than one ). 

I remember seeing that in an old book.  So the scenario is two scouts are on a hike, it is a warm day, they come upon a cooling stream/pond/lake.  As they are (of course) in full class A for their hike Scout 1 goes swimming using the two neckerchiefs (picture sort of a speedoesque attire) while Scout 2 is the lifeguard.  Then they reverse roles (and one would assume the swimwear).  Dry off and continue the hike

13 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I expect the first complaint that makes it to the Tampa Bay Times and all parties will fold and we will go Co-Ed rules be darned. Linked Troops is clearly a short interim strategy--National will change it to a Co-Ed option very, very soon. They just have to figure out how to spin it. 

This will happen in October of this year when the Web II girls realize that the snazzy active troop they may be visiting for AOL requirements with many outings per year, high adventure, etc she will not be able to join