Jameson76

1 minute ago, malraux said:

There’s also a theme of 1 family having multiple positions within the key 3. 

Sometimes that is a necessity due to size, in some cases it is someone making their little empire.

3 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Wood Badge is the Family Life MB of adult training. It's too much information for someone in their first year of Scouting and not enough useful information for someone in their fifth year.

I am going to so steal that analogy....

4 minutes ago, cocomax said:

The worst example of things gone wrong is a near by troop with 56 scouts had their scout master driven off by a mom (wood badge trained mom).

This mom's husband took over the job of SM,  and she is on the troop committee. She changed things so that the cub pack, troop and venture crew all meet at the same time and the place in the same room.  The venture crew which includes girls,  is treated like part of the troop and is her way of going co-ed.  The scouts and crew are required to run the cub dens to make things easier for the parents. The scouts do not get to have meetings of their own.   Most of the adults of the troop are very overweight so hiking is out of the question. Their outings consist of car camping with the adults cooking and everyone playing on their cell phones for entertainment. The SM (husband) just sits there (when he is not cooking) and she runs everything.

They go to merit badge colleges where they get 3 merit badges in a single weekend.

If you watch this group of cubs, crew and scouts at one of their car camping outings you see that they are all treated like tiger cubs,  the only one screaming orders is the mom in charge, the boys have ZERO say and no chance to lead anything.

The contact info for the troop was always her name, it was like her SM husband did not really exist. 

This mom acts like she is a bad example of a  SM, PL, and SPL all rolled into one.

She is a proud feminist and is quick to throw the "IF MOMMY IS NOT HAPPY THEN NOBODY IS HAPPY!" card your way, and she acted like she was everyone's mommy.  If you say the slightest thing might softly question one of here wishes, she will start crying and then get angry.

The troop was doomed and the boys walked away,  nobody could do anything.  The troop dropped to just 6 boys. 

She was hiding behind the fact that she was a woman to get her way.  If you say anything, you are a horrible women hating sexist toxic male pig. . .

I do not know of any way to deal with any woman that is using this tactic to get her way.   There are many women like her in my district and their numbers are increasing.

 

But hey...she's woodbadge trained 😁 Wonder what her critter is (was??)

Full disclaimer..never attended WB nor do I plan to.  There is likely some good to it, but see waaay too many adults who basically treat the WB experience, staffing, course personage as their contribution to the scouting program when if fact they have not camped with a troop or met an actual scout in years and basically are part of this adult cult of the pink hankie.  WB does not make you a scouter.  Leading youth in a challenging program and helping them along their journey as you work with them on the trails, in the rain, in the cold, in emergency situations, in trying times, and in a variety of situations to be productive adults, that's what makes you a scout leader.  No special knot or tartan scarf needed.

7 minutes ago, cocomax said:

What I am seeing around here (in my district) are the new women scouters do not have to follow the rules. They can change any aspect of a troop, pack, training program to match their own personal wishes, they do not have to follow any rules. Men are not allowed to say anything, out of fear of an emotional outburst.  Good men are being pushed out, attacked and dismissed. 

Anything a women wants is pretty much allowed and is extremely destructive ( when it is something that openly breaks the rules, and/or drives away the boys). 

and things are just getting worse and worse. . .  

 

 

That is not good

Our unit is pretty old school I guess.  All the key leaders (SM and ASM's) are guys, same with the committee members that regularly attend campouts and summer camps.  We have female committee heavily involved with multiple support functions, but none in youth facing roles.  We get support from moms (and dads) for driving to and from outings, etc.  Not sure what is happening at the district level, that does not impact us.  We are the largest troop in district at 100+ (x2 from the next sized one) so we have momentum and resources to do our own thing.  That is in fact a blessing.

21 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

This policy could likely have the unintended effect of older boys only attending a campout for the purpose of a SMC.

If a unit has to "force" older Scouts to attend to get a SM conference, the issue of conferences is likely the least of their worries. 

While we would always welcome more of the older scouts, the key to get them to the outings is to have engaging and fun / challenging outings.  If the outing is solely based on advancement, then likely it will drive many away.  If the district or council camporees do not get enough attendees, maybe pass on those (yes one could get involved and maybe plan more engaging ones but that is a long play).  Key is to do stuff they may not do with their friends and families...backpacking because it's there, hiking back country rugged trails into a gorge because it's fun, getting hauled around the lake on a tube...well because, canoeing in a swamp because seeing alligators maybe 10' away is wicked fun.  That is how you get older scouts to attend, not only doing SM conferences there.

It is a interesting study and article.  This speaks volumes to peer pressure, also it speaks volumes to what is not known about gender identity and how transgender feelings are formed.  One hopes much of this is not like tattoos, they seem really cool when you are 18 - 20....25 years later many wonder what in the world they were thinking.

42 minutes ago, nateisen said:

 They think it is ridiculous to keep this one girl in a den by herself.  The only other girls that joined were Tigers, so it makes even less sense to put her in a mixed-rank den. 

And in your case actual field reality comes up against National direction.  That direction is Girls and Boys in the same pack but single gender dens.  If you do not have enough girls to make a den, then mixed ages in a den.

This case you have 1 girl and then only other girls in the pack are 1st graders.  Not a good situation if you are seeking to follow the program

8 minutes ago, gblotter said:

The only person I have called a liar is Surbaugh (because he is). Evidence abounds that he when given the opportunity for honest dialog, he repeatedly chooses to deceive and manipulate instead.

You are frustrated by me calling Surbaugh a liar. I am frustrated by Surbaugh being a liar.

But he's got the US Flag behind him....and a blue blazer with the BSA emblem and everything.  Seems to be able to spin a tale, I might by a used car from him....

It was sort of all in wasn't it.   Maybe a tad bit of overkill.  More interesting may have been details on the Philmont recovery plan, information on the Northern Tier fires, what some units did instead of Philmont and how they accomplished that effort, Venture fest at Summit...you know...actual scouting stuff

The focus on "Family Scouting" from National sort of reminds me of when you start seeing tons of ads for an upcoming movie.  The amount of ads and promotions seems inverse to the actual public demand / interest for the actual content of the movie

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

@Chris1, don't revise history...

Registered and trained adult female advisors or associates were never required for a coed crew. An adult female did not need to be present for crew meetings or daytime activities (coed or otherwise) ... only for overnights. The revised requirements could very well crush venturing. Lacking any evidence of a spike in girls being victimized by their male leaders, this requirement is purely defensive against projected litigation of incidents in BSA4G.

Yep.  I was the advisor for a coed explorer post in the 80's.  For meetings,  doing the Scout show, day activities, etc at that time only 1 leader was needed.  No requirement for female or male, just a leader.  The female leader was needed for the outings, and yes, the struggle was real to make that happen.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

No.  Nope. Sorry, wrong. The book is filled with gender pronouns and pictures of boys.  Having a book in a different language or pictures of girls doesn’t change the program. If you show me that the girl book or the Spanish book has different requirements then you can make this point. 

My comment was on the messaging and the actual mismanagement and continued mishandling of the program changes messaging.  Likely, at this point, they are identical, never said they were not. 

There are issues with the tenure and tone of the program changes

• The original Oct 17 rollout specifically noted separate troops, then 30 - 60 days later linked troops was an option
• National rolls out updated YPT and sets a different standard for girls and leaders than boys in that if there are girls then there must be a female YPT leader.  No such gender specific requirement if there are boys at an activity
• Summer 2018 there are two specific handbooks denoted by gender

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Really??!?!?  Are you serious?  If they changed the Boy Scout book to add some pictures of girls and changed some pronouns you would have went nuts claiming they “changed the program”.  They are adding a girls book with picture of girls and adding “she” instead of “he”.  They did this in a separate book so they don’t upset the existing boys and their leaders... and that is now an issue?   WOW!  

Perhaps we need to add trigger warnings to any BSA announcements going forward so existing leaders can go to their safe spaces prior to hearing such things like there is a scouts BSA book with pictures of girls or uniform pants that come out and are sized for girls. Oh, the humanity! 😀

There is a lot to complain about but having a separate book (as long as gender is the only delta) makes sense given how they are introducing the program as non coed.

I am very serious.  

The messaging concerning Boy Scouts (AKA Scouts BSA)  has been IDENTICAL programs, no changes to the program, the same program for all, etc etc.   Step on up and get your Eagle.  Now there are in fact two handbooks, a Girls Handbook and a Boys Handbook.  One would assume actually 4 handbooks, 2 for Girls English and Spanish and 2 for Boys English and Spanish.

What message does that send?  Basically subliminally telegraphing that there are in fact differences.  There probably are not any other than the photos, but is that in fact the case (one would hope that is the case).  Again, even another botched message from the tone deaf crowd at National.

32 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Is there any documented maximum allowable time from when a SM conference is requested to when one of given to the Scout? I'm not aware of anything but wondering if it's written somewhere. Like "a troop must make a conference date/time available to the Scout within no more than 60 days from request" or something like that?

There is not.  The GTA does speak to the SM delegating the responsibility for the SM Conference to another leader if they are going to be absent for an extended period

This does seem an additional hoop that needs to be jumped through

While the SM conference can be done at any time, as practice we have made that the last requirement before the BOR.  This gives the ASM / SM an opportunity to review the book, make sure everything is signed off, etc.

Our unit the ASM's perform the Scout / TFoot, and 2nd class SM conference.  The SM does the 1st - Star - Life - Eagle.  That being said if there is a scout requesting a SM conference and SM is not at an outing the SM will designate a unit leader to handle that so as not to hold up the process.  For these we do work to get the Scouts to schedule them prior to meetings, outings, sort of the whole plan ahead thing.  May not always work, but try move down that road

Saturday evenings at campouts there are scouts circling looking for SM conferences and BOR's.  

50 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Perhaps a "Conditional" shirt sleeve strip like "Trained"?

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

Conditional Scouters.  We should get t-shirts....

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

Lastly, and pardon the slight pun, "man up!" Since when have scouters been afraid of being the "bad guy" by follow rules? It is our duty to follow the rules. We should take pride in such, not hang our heads in shame for asking others to follow the rules.

We can definitely be the bad guy.

The bad guy reference was more to the position National BSA is placing local units in with their gerrymandered and non-equally applied YPT requirements.  We (and other units) have no issue with adhering to that and communicating such.  The parents and Webelos effected by this will probably think ill of the local unit and not the Corporate BSA that made the rules in a vacuum, far away from their actual customers, in the hallowed grounds of Dallas or the extremely well apportioned and no doubt overpriced rooms of the Summit.

6 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Yes, but then the Webelos Den should supply such. It is their requirement to have one, not yours.

 

 

I would have said yes on that, but it is technically not a "Den" event.  We invite Webelos from the two feeder packs at the CO, and from other packs that may be interested in our troop or are looking to complete the requirements for AOL.  Sort of a grey area, as the Webelos have to bring a parent (or adult partner) with them, they tent with that person and they are responsible for transportation.

The visitors do participate in activities with the troop, so likely by rules of G2SS we may in fact need to have a female, or not allow girls to come unless they bring their own registered female leader.  A requirement not needed for the boys, so again we the front line units are sort of left holding the bag so to speak and possibly being the bad guy.

On 8/20/2018 at 9:14 AM, Eagledad said:

What is a "conditional scouter"?

Barry

A new term trotted out (must have been included in some talking points as I heard the term from or local SE when he and I discussed the October announcement) that in my opinion is aimed at marginalizing any type of unhappiness with the changes.  In essence they are saying you are only a "conditional" scouter if your continued membership and support is there only if conditions do not change from when you joined or got involved in scouting.

That is a very poor term and assignment, because essentially everything we do in life is "conditional".  My company has hired me to do a job, I continue to work within my experience and that I can bring value.  If my employer changes those conditions, I may leave.  My wife and I got married, the assumed condition was monogamy (what being protestant and all), I am fairly certain if one of us changed that "condition" then the we might rightfully leave the marriage.

BSA has changed the conditions of the specific program I volunteer for and support.  I am free to make my decisions with regard to ongoing support.

So...question on this topic - 

We have the Webelos come for a campout each year.  Also they visit a meeting during the year.  While we are a large troop (40 +/- on campouts / 90 +/- registered) there are no female leaders that regularly camp nor attend the meetings.  We do have female committee members who work on a large number of items, they are registered and YPT compliant.

When we have the Webelos campout, and if a Female Webelos were to attend (or multiple) would we need to have a registered YPT female leader present to be in compliance?  Note that for the Webelos attending this is not an official Pack event, and while they are guests of the troop on a visit they tent with their parent (or adult partner), do not ride to or from with the troop, and while we do ask for their approximate time they will be in attendance, we as a troop do not assume responsibility.  They are their visiting with their parent who has that responsibility.

Same for the meeting visitation.  Parents bring the Webelos, they shadow during the meeting, we have a parents session.  Will we need a trained YPT female there in case we get some female Webelos?

Just curious what say the New World Order YPT internet lawyers?

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Is "linked troops" a buzzword for coed? 

And the answer to that is yes....

Most telling is that the "linked troop" model was not part of the October announcement.  That was added later..... "Oh what a tangled web we weave / When first we practice to deceive."

Good article, I found the groups they highlighted were not all the same.

From what I could read the BOLD and GOLD seemed to be ongoing programs, not unlike the Boy Scouts program.  Likely a stable membership group.  That group saw value in the single gender as the groups did activities.  Let them be more open within that group

The Outward Bound and the Lasting Adventures, the Yosemite-based guiding service for young adults may have a different perspective in that they are more single event groups.  The Outward Bound acknowledged that both are good, the Lasting Adventures may be looking at a more commercial focus, the butts in seats need for revenue.  Not saying that their input is not valid, just they are coming at it from different perspectives.

That is going to be the challenge moving forward, (speaking only for the Boy Scouts 11 -17 program) how to balance those that may want single gender and those that want for all intents and purposes coed.  Let's be honest, the linked troop is a coed unit.

For many units they have little to no interaction with other units so the impact will be very minimal.  Our troop does 13 - 15 outdoor activities each year.  The high adventure, Seabase or Philmont is crew based and from a functional perspective will go on as currently operating.  For our troop campouts no changes.  Over the years we have not attended any district or council camporees.  Not that we work against those, just not a high attendance event for the troop.  Not we have 90 +/- Scouts in the unit.  We are patrol based, youth led, and will continue that way.  Not moving to family camping in any way.  The summer camps, we attend 2 each summer, and we wonder what the impact may be.  Likely minimal, but who knows.

I trust the BSA will respect and support the troops / units that desire to remain single gender.  That is what works for them, many have been and continue to be successful.  There is value in both approaches.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I am dealing with a Scout in a Similar situation. He has exactly 12 months 2 weeks to earn both Life and Eagle. He knew about this all along. And has had multiple opportunities to advance. He knows it is HIS RESPONSIBILITY to meet the  requirements and deadlines, not the adults.

I am working with a Scout that joined when he was 15 or so.  Had been in Cubs, had friends in the troop they told him it was fun, so he joined (we felt good about that)  Also he wanted to do some High Adventure.  Last summer he went to HA, also 2 summer camps.  We sat down at camp and he said he hoped to be a Life Scout.  We did some math, looked at dates, and worked out a table of when he had to (last possible date) achieve ranks and he could earn Eagle.  

He has been diligent and is ahead of the curve, just wrapped up Life.  Went to HA this summer and also a summer camp.  Nice to have an older youth in camp to serve as a JASM and backstop the camp SPL.  Has the POR and has just over 9 months to complete his Eagle requirements.  With the leaders we laid out his path, but it is his path.  He has to take the initiative.  As adults we advise, possibly remind, but at the end of the day, it is the SCOUT who needs to manage his timelines. 

At the Star BOR's we work into the conversation the 6 months, and not to procrastinate as the calendar is a cruel mistress and the sands of time march along.

When the Scout in the article completed Life HE should have looked at the calendar and been aware of the requirements.

Got a couple of others that are in the process, but I get radio silence sometimes when I speak with them, get the "yeah I am working on it".  Remind them as straight forward as possible that 18th birthday is the deadline