Buffalo Skipper

While a scout, I was never selected for the OA by my troop. Back in my day, only a X quanity of scouts could be selected in Y sized troop, so this ended up being a popularity vote, despite the scoutmasters' advice to the contrary. I was never the "popular" scout, and was never chosen to be tapped out. After completing Eagle before my 15th birthday, I became less active in the troop; though I continued to serve on summer camp staff and attended the National Jamboree, my focus was at that time was geared toward Sea Explorers, where I had a very positive and motivating scouting experience for over 6 years.

Though I resented it at the time, I have come to terms with not being in the OA. Nearly all my adult scouter friends are surprised when, after shaking my hand I have to remind them I am not a member of the OA. With my involvement in scouts in our district and council for so many years, veteran scouts just assume I am a member.

I have understood that adult participation/membership is not the same as youth. Appreciating the adult role, I did not seek selection over the past few years as I had other scouting priorities. I did not feel I could commit to the OA as a decicated leader, especially now that I am a fully involved Scoutmaster. This year, one of my close friends on our troop committee encouraged me to accept selection. I turned him down at first, but he insisted that being a Scoutmaster and supporting the OA from the troop level (which I always have anyway) was commendable service to the Lodge. I considered it for several weeks, and eventually decided to accept the committee's nomination.

For the past 30+ years, I have quietly waited for the opportunity to be a part of the OA. In spite of the "sore spot" I have felt, I have encouraged our scouts to participate, and I have not held my situation against the organization or it's members.

Tonight I leave for my ordeal. Some of my closest scouter friends are going through ordeal as well (none of whom were scouts as youth, but at least one I have known since high school). Years ago scouts, and now adults, have always spoken openly of the OA around me (assuming I am a part of the OA) so I there are few "secrets" I expect to learn. However, I am sure to have some misconceptions and I will keep an open mind. I am looking forward to this, and I hope it will be an experience I will remember fondly and cherish the rest of my life. I have never openly expressed any resentment toward those who chose not to select me 30 years ago, and, in spite of my appreciation of the difference between the scout and the adult OA member, this is fufilling one of my lifelong scouting goals. I will try to approach this humbly, but inside my heart is racing with excitement and anticpation. I hope my expectations are not too high.

More than a suggestion, that is exactly what is described policy in the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures guidebook. Any rank or MB begun before a change was officially implemented can be finished under either set of requirements (scout's choice); once the new rank is begun after a change, new requirements apply.

I make woggles for my troop. They are awarded for participation in the our Knotmaster program. Green represents the first level and Black the second level. On one of the bights, I allow some extra cord and tie a 1" "do a good turn daily" knot, which is worn in the front. This sets these knots apart from regular Wood Badge woggles.

They are 5-bight woggles.

Yes, you can do it any way you want. But there is a little flip book (like the old pocket spiral note books) which contain only the new requirements in a (miniture) format to be signed off like in the handbook. It sells at the scoutshop for $4.49, I believe.

Us experienced scouters need a magnifying glass to read it (and sign initials and date) but it is an easy way to get the new requirements for someone who does not feel the need to buy a whole new book.

I thought I would take a quick poll. How many troops plan to attend more than one camp each summer? (or the same camp more than once)

If you do attend more than one camp, what is your reasoning? To include scouts who might miss one camp? To offer a different price tiered camp? To give two levels of experience? Too big to go as a single group?

Please provide as many details as you can for the reasoning.

jeff-o,

I am one to jump on the band waggon against merit badge classes. However, I see First Aid MB as one of a very few exceptions to this standard. As I see it, BSA intends a MB to be an individual expereince, not something which happens as a group. I also take that expectation further to say that a scout should do the majority of the learning on his own, and the counselor should be there to guide him in his learning.

But there are some MBs where this model does not effectively fit in my nice neat box. The first one of these is First Aid, and I put it in a category by itself, for several reasons. One, it is difficult to learn this by reading books: bandages, splints and such must be shown and practiced. This can be done very effectively in a group setting, so long as there is attention to the individual scout (see ACP&C, more on that in a minute). Likewise, I see First Aid as a skill set which can be a life changer (literally). How many scouts have suddenly found themselves in a situation where the knowledge gained while studying Citizenship in the Community MB allowed them to save someone's life?

The other exception category I see is skill/safety related MBs. Climbing, Canoeing, Rifle Shooting Pioneering and other similar badges are based on physical skills, not book knowledge. Many times these are best mastered in a multi-scout environment, where observing others effects learning, often with scouts trying to "out-do" the next. No scout says "I am going to have a better Family Life experience than my buddy."

The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures guidebook makes this statement:

"The question arises as to whether it is permissible to have Scouts earn merit badges in groups. Many subjects may be presented to groups of Scouts without defeating one of the purposes of the merit badge plan -- working closely with a qualified adult.

The National Executive Board has approved this policy statement on merit badge counseling:

To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor. Group instruction and orientation are encouraged where special facilities and expert personnel make this most practical, or when Scouts are dependent on only a few counselors for assistance. However, this group experience should be followed by attention to each individual candidate's projects and his ability to fulfill all requirements.

In the end, the Scout must be reviewed individually by the counselor to ensure completion of the badges requirements.

In harmony with this policy, a troop or team may use merit badge counselors in unit meetings. The merit badge counselor can make a presentation covering the highlights of a merit badge subject. Scouts should then be given an opportunity to try some skill related to the badge. This introduction to a merit badge can spark an interest in the subject."

Advancement Policies #33088, p. 26)

Hope that helps.

Brent,

Reminds us of "Field of Dreams": build it and they will come. I like to think that the program you are delivering a program similar to where our troop is going, but you are a year ahead of us. We are now up to 22 with as many as 5 prospects still being courted, and next year we are anticipating 15-20 new scouts also.

Keep up the good work. Having quality, trained leaders on the same page is certainly the key, but the vision of the Scoutmaster is important as well. Congrats!

At one time our troop (1970s through the 1990s) hovered between 50 and 80 scouts. I grew up in a troop of 18-25 (the troop I am now the SM was our biggest nemesis). I have too have concerns about being to deliver a quality program to a group of scouts approaching and over 50. I have always said I would split the troop if we got that large, but with good support and experienced leaders from this our troop's "Golden Age" returning to our committee, I am slowly warming to the idea of a larger group. There are plenty of strong troops in our immediate area, it is unlikely we can grow that big...

Follow up on the weekend:

Pivotal moments and events usually viewed with 20/20 hindsight; rarely does one experience these in the present, observing: "This is the moment in which everything IS changing!" This weekend was that rarest of campouts. Attending the campout were only 2 veteran scouts, 2 one year scouts, 1 scout with three campouts (who was an acting PL)the rest were 12 brand new scouts, camping with the troop for the first time. Like Beavah said, a first campout is one in which should only leave the best of impressions, and did it ever!

It started unexpectedly well, when these green scouts packed the trailers in record time. Everyone pitched in; no one fiddled around and it was far smoother than could ever have been anticipated. Better yet, the parents didnt hang out or try to do it for their scouts the first time. We got to camp and set up without a hitch. One patrol, led by a 1 year scout with 5 first timers even set up their tarp in the dark and had every pot laid out and ready for breakfast before hitting the hay. And this was done with little or no adult mentoring, and certainly without intervention; all self-led. The next morning all 3 patrols were up (30 minutes before reveille!), had breakfast cooked, and were either beginning or done cleaning before the adults sat down to eat. By the time we (adults) were done and looking in on the patrols by 8 am or so, one patrol was washing down their patrol tables with soap, scrubbers and a water bucket (never seen before in recent troop history!).

As it was a new scout campout, we set up 3 stations. Our 2 older scouts, each with an ASM assistant ran a 90-minute Totin' Chip (ax-knife safety) station and a Fireman Chit (Fire building and safety) station. The third station was adult run and was service/work related, where we built a permanent ax-yard, and cleared out overgrown brush from a decades unused patrol area and existing areas and set 4 new fire rings. Each patrol did these as round-robins. The first patrol in the service area cut out a pile of old overgrown bushes (with the assistance of only 1 adult) the size of 2 full size SUVs! The later patrols cut out less but worked just as hard, neatening existing areas and even removing a dead tree hanging over a patrol area. After the round-robins, the patrols held meetings and had free time for the rest of the afternoon. All (without reminders) returned to camp, cooked meals, cleaned up and were done in time for the 7 pm campfire--and every patrol had prepared a song and a skit! The fire was set up by the service patrol and lit with the only one match. They ran their own campfire, and entertained themselves for 45 minutes. After the campfire they eagerly jumped into 4 rounds of capture the flag/flashlight wars. Night games, as I had begun telling the forum a year ago, had been lost on our troop, and all efforts to affect this had previously fallen on deaf ears. This time they jumped into it head first and had SUCH a good time doing it. It took a little adult supervision to get it going, but once the ball was rolling, we stepped away and let them go for it.

I won't bother to pass on all the details of Sunday, except to say that it was more of the same cooperation and camaraderie. I should add that the patrols came back from a 3.5 mile hike by 12 noon, and by 2:15 had fixed and eaten lunch, cleaned up, taken down camp and loaded the trailers.

Yes, there were some personality conflicts within one patrol, but they still worked together and worked though most of it. Had I been working with these scouts for 6 months, I would not have expected this level of cooperation. But most of all, everyone had tons of FUN!

As an after note, but no less important, our two "tag along" parents (about whom I began this whole thread )are obviously people we want to have in our troop as adult leaders. They are very supportive of the youth but not clingy, and they are open to our program. Both now have applications and want to go through all the necessary training to "satisfy" the troop expectations. Getting 2 new ASMs from nowhere is a bonus I cannot turn down with our still growing troop. My next challenge is to reintegrate the PLs who missed the weekend into these capable and proud patrols....

Generally speaking, I have found Europeans to be fairly pragmatic. Obviously there are exceptions, but I would put European pastries and pies in the "well balanced" category. They are not as sugar filled as American deserts. Often times they are lighter, have fewer calories and certainly less fat. And my observations are that, unlike many from this country, they do not overindulge in them.

Just an opinion based upon my observations.

Of course it is impossible for us to understand in a few sentences exactly what went on or what was going throught the minds of those on the other side of the table. But on the surface it sure looks like everyone here agrees that this looks like a good project, and I agree as well.

My my interpretation, "routine maintenance" would be interpretted as something that is regularly done, prehaps by professionals. As an example, lawn service to an existing lawn is routine; re-landscaping a neglected project is another story. Tearing out and replacing a (700') fence following damage from repeated ice storms is not what I would call routine or regular. Clearly it is not a part of a regular budget, nor is it something expected to be done repeatedly and expectedly.

Giving the Eagle Board members the benefit of the doubt, perhaps there was some other shortcoming of the project that they somehow described in this "category." Otherwise, it may well be a bad judgement or misunderstanding on behalf of the board.

Keep at this one and support your scout.

1) Coconut Cream Pie

2) Cherry Pie (my mother's recipe and crust. Really good served hot with sour cream! or cold with homemade whipped cream)

3) Strawberry Pie (my mother-in-law's recipe, rest her soul)

4) Cheesecake pie (my recipe, topped with either cherries or blueberries)

5) Lemon Meringue Pie (again, my mother's recipe and crust)

The troop was just given a brand new 10" dutch oven. It is too small for a one-pot meal for an eight-scout patrol (all of our patrols are now full!), so I want to start experimenting with pies or other pastries for the adults. Anyone have any good dutch oven recipes for pies and pie crusts?

Bearshark,

Did your CC state that "No, OLS is not required" or "No, they are not sufficiently trained to go"?

Committee Members should not be the one's taking the troop camping. This is the responsibility of the SM and ASMs. If they (SM/ASMs) cannot attend, then, along with the committee, the SM should oversee the selection of available leaders to supervise the troop.

It is not the committee's job to deliver the outdoor program by circumventing the SM.

BDPT00, I too have a measuring "tool." Jig is really a more appropriate term, and I use it to place my service pins. It a piece of card stock, with 4 wide V cuts across the top. The card is placed aligned along the top edge of my knots; there are hash marks to align the center marks to align . he top of the The point of the V is where the pin is placed through the shirt.

As I only wear all my service pins on the most formal occasions, I don't have to use this often. And, though accurate, I really made it as a jig to keep them straight.

I like to be very forgiving with scouts, especially if it is obvious that they have tried to put on their patches themselves. I do encourage them to put them on themselves, and sometimes it doesn't turn out great. My son likes to do all his own MBs, but he does ask that I pin them first. He also does most of his other patches, but asks that do his "rank" patches, because I leave the pocket open; he is getting better with every patch. I have one scout who actually stitches all his own patches with a sewing machine. His mother does machine embroidery on the side and has something like 4 different machines set up in her sewing room.

I like the light approach to this thread. That's good, thread--patch, sewn on. Hehehe...

I have a leader who is crossing from Cub Scouts. He is a veteran scouter, who eagled with the troop. His dad was WB SM, Silver Beaver and all that good stuff. His collar is armor plated with CS pins and he hangs his Philmont patch on his left pocket and has another temp on his right. I haven't come up with a nice way to tell him to fix it. But you gave me the idea. He is currently re-reading the current SM handbook and his son's BS Handbook. I can always encourage him to pay extra attention to the section on patch placement. ;-) Maybe he'll get the hint.

His scouts (Webelos who crossed with him) are also semi/pseudo-uniformed. We generally have uniform inspections once a month. With a court of honor in 2 weeks, we could have an inspection next week in prep, and could have each scout have a list of corrections before the CoH.

I still don't get what was suposed to be funny about the posted list: "You might be a member of the uniform police if..."

Ditto for emb021. Several weeks ago. Boys' Life came the same day. My son is always so secretive the day his Boys' Life comes. I think it's because he his trying to hide it so I don't try to read it before him. ;>)

Revisiting this old thread, we are again trying to re-introduce night games with our young troop at our weekend campout. Somehow the excitement of this really dwindled this past year. This is how I really came into my own as a scout. Before these games I was sort of an outcast, but once I started, everyone wanted me to be the captain and be on my team. I still startle people on campouts when even during the day I walk up completely silently.

In today's scouting, how do you handle the Buddy System with a group of scouts at night? With 18 scouts, we will be in a fairly "confined" area of a few acres around the old campsites of our primitive campsite. We will probably explore the area during the day, but is it really expected that scouts keep up with buddies during capture the flag? Seems to really defeat the purpose of this type of game.

BA, yes, "getting wrapped around the axle" is the exact phrase I used to one of my leaders this morning when talking about my attitude on this. But try to understand my perspective on this (it doesn't make me right, but it does explain why I am reacting this way), which is that we have had a small enough troop that for 8 years (long before my time), we have never had anything but trained and registered leaders on regular campouts. Parents have never butted in (even the mom who went to 6 summer camps was registered and trained, and in fact had been to NCS). So, in a sense, we have been living in the ideal world AvidSM has described for quite some time. Also, the condern of paticipatory parents was only brought to my attention Tuesday night before the Friday campout. It is hard to know how to respond. Panic was the first action I considered, but I took the more prudent route and discussed it with our CC. We quickly agreed on some ground rules and set the tone, which may have helped out last night at the committee meeting.

The other cliche which applies to this situation is: "Be careful what you wish for, you may actually get it." Eagle92 and Gklose have it right when they state this is an opportunity. I can confortably state we have 2 really good (potential) leaders out of this group, and we want to take advantage of that. It is a matter of setting some basic rules and expectations and keeping to them. I have already begun organizing some friends who are trainers and we will see that we can conduct a Scout Leader training session by sometime in the next 2 months. It is largely a matter of choosing a date.

I would never act to exclude parents from observing any activity with the troop. On Monday, we had a "New Parent Meeting" with 10 families represented. There was some concern because at the time, we had 6 registered (mostly trained) leaders to go on the campout: 3 ASMs to work with the 3 patrols and 3 other leaders as back-ups/stand-bys/extras. I should add that, though I have worked quietly with the leader of this den/pack for over a year, we had schedule conflicts and the den was unable to camp with the troop. As was suggested, some of these parents are understandably not yet comfortable with our leadership. It is a shortcoming which has is already being addressed and considered for the new Webelos with whom we are already meeting and talking with for next year.

Beavah, there is no scheduling conflict on behalf of the PLC, and I support them completely. The scheduling was a "That's the way it is" situation and the PLC and I have known it for months. It was the only weekend we could schedule a campout for March. Any earlier and the new scouts could not have prepared at all. The following weekend conflicts with other council scheduled activities which will remove OA leaders and scouts from the troop (including 2 of 3 PLs) and the weeks after that are spring break where many scouts would have otherwise been out of town. Two weeks after that is "Scout-Jam," our council's 100th Anniversery encampment. The way it has been organized, it would not make a first campout for 60% of the troop. The option was to cancel all camping until May which the PLC never took seriously. We are not bailing out the PLC here, we are supporting their decisions. The absent PLs are still helping with menus and shopping.

In another discussion we had here some time ago, I believe it was Barry who said that anytime you have more that a 40% shake-up in membership, you must treat the organization in the same way you would as if it were newly forming. Having the ASMs with these patrols for the next few campouts has been a (reluctant) part of our plan for several months. The truth is that we went from 11 active to 25 virtually overnight. Next year we are already in talks with unofficial commitments for 3 Webelos dens totalling 20 scouts. Though we may not have the conflicts next year, the upheaval in our troop next year will only be greater than this.

We are not making this an Adult-lead troop. Our patrols are still functioning, and the few youth we have available are voluntarily stepping into roles to assist. Delaying the process isn't going to make the ratios that much better; we're talking about one 1-2 year scout in each patrol which has four new scouts. That is still over 50% in each patol.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Thanks for the replies. Now a little more background. I have been operating in "HP avoidance mode" for some time. About 2 years ago, one of our recent 18yoASM/Eagle scouts was offered the opportunity to attend summer camp as an adult. He got this glazed look in his eyes, stared into space and replied almost dreamily "Wow. I could actually go to summer camp without my mom? That would be neat...."

Our troop has been small, and with the previously described core leaders, little additional parental support has been needed. Suddenly, we have (after years of groundwork) some significant growth in the troop. I really wanted to create an environment where these new scouts gained a real sense of independence, which is part of Boy Scouting. One particular group of parents has rejected the idea that their sons should be camping without them, something which was only conveyed to me last night, 2 hours before the troop meeting.

I have worked hard, especially the last year preparing our troop committee for this expected growth, but it was met with quite a bit of skepticism, and a "we'll see" attitude. In addition to our 10 crossovers last night, two more scouts were recruited, giving us 12 brand new scouts to camp this weekend. There was a committee meeting last night, and some of the new parents were there, discussing participation. The committee chair was not in the mood to deal with them, and the meeting adjorned in about 30 minutes, without the chance for me to even address the myriad of issues I need committee support to resolve regarding our sudden growth.

While the committee meeting was going on, the meeting was going OK, but certainly hectic. There were parents coming in and out (including my new ASM). I had been asked by the SPL to help with the training (for which I was prepared). While I was juggling all that, I was also trying to meet with and educate the 2 new dads. If I sound like the meeting was a little frantic, well it was; but thankfully it was never out of control.

This weekend's campout will be particularly challenging because all 3 PLs will miss the campout. Two are going to the NJ and this weekend is their first contingent troop campout; the other has a broken hand and has been told by his MD not to camp; 2 other experienced scouts also cannot attend. Experienced scouts include the SPL, Instructor (who has missed the last 3 meetings and has not met a one of the new scouts), a 1 year scout (APL) another APL who only has 2 campouts under his belt, and another 1 year scout who only camped one weekend with his old troop and never yet with us. And 9 crossovers and 3 green recruits.

We have temporarily an ASM "assigned" to each patrol. I don't like to do this, but our new scout ratio is pretty steep. Counting our "experienced" scouts who have 3 campouts between them as new, we have a 4:14 ratio of experienced to new. What I am realizing is that we really do need some of these parents to join as leaders. As Eagle92 says, it the borderline between helicopter/paratroop parents and leaders can sometimes be a fine line.

Obviously, our troop needs to establish a firm written expectation on who can attend (not observe, I do appreciate, understand and respect the difference) campouts. Our district training schedule will limit how and when we can expect in the immediate future on getting these through Scoutleader Essentials, but hopefully we can get 2 or 3 through IOLS next month. On the same lines, I am a district trainer, and maybe I can organize a special session for these new leaders we need to recruit.

Other troops in our area have specific guidelines. One very old troop has not had a mother camp with them in 80 years (and probably never will); that is not the direction we will be going. Another (one which "spun off" from our troop 20 years ago) requires that all camping leaders be registered and have completed ScoutLeader training and IOLS. I think this is the direction I want to take us, but under the circumstances, I believe we may need to grandfather in some leaders while we adjust.

Thoughts?

Our troop has for years camped with a small group of leaders, not all of whom are also parents. This small corps of trained and experienced leaders, with maybe 2 campouts a year accompanied by a couple of parents. We have had a crossover group of Webelos who now expects that the parents should accompany their scouts on every campout.

I know every troop has its policies, and I accept that. But we need to first determine what is actual BSA policy on this before we begin looking at defining "formal" troop policies on this.

Yes, there is more to the story than just that, and I will get to it, but I want to get a little feed back from all of you so I can put it in perspective. Please hold off on stating your troop's policy; I want to discuss that also, but will form that into a separate thread once we establish a baseline here.

cheffy,

Here is a great thread from a year ago when I asked almost the exact same question. Many great ideas were presented, and there is quite a bit of variety in the answers here.

Good Luck! These are always fun for everyone!

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=231794#id_232596

BSA has put out a little spiral ringed flip book with nothing in it but the new rank requirements, in a format identical to what is in the handbook. A scout can buy this for less than the cost of a new handbook and "tape" it in his handbook for the new requirements.

#34621 (which does not pull up right on the website...)

From scoutstuff.org:

"Mini Version

The Mini Version of the 12th Edition BSA Handbook highlights the rank requirements in an easy-to-use, coil-bound, cargo-pocket-size package. The bilingual version contains both Spanish and English versions of the rank requirements through Eagle Scout and Palms."

Photo, (3rd pic from the left: "...A quick reference for rank requirements"

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/imgviewer.aspx?img=34554_is

I also am most concerned about the group that crosses and doesn't really join. Without pointing a finger, I think that may be from den leaders who really miss the opportunity to express that Webelos prepares for Boy Scouts. I (and a co-hort from another pack) delivered that as a strong part of our messages to the Webs, and all our crossovers are active. 100% from the last 2 years have stayed involved (I my wife lead last year's crop). Being a trainer and former Cub Roundtable Staff and Commissioner, I look at leaders a little differently, and sometimes I actually expect them to the deliver the program BSA has developed.

I also think that it has a lot to do with the parent's expectation (or lack thereof) about the program's purpose.

This is 1/8 of the boys you dealt with. That is a significant number. Identifying the reasons for this, finding solutions, and working through this can be a significant way to keep membership up in one's troop.

I have over 2 cumulative years as SM (including my time as a 19 year old ASM in Germany when there was no SM). Then I was it, but now, I have a different approach. I do not run the Troop by a Committee of ASMs, but I do seek the guidance of those I trust, not dissimilar to the approach I take here, when asking for advice. I am willing to make the hard decision (on the rare occasion when a SM should need to do so), but I also seek advice on what direction we (including the ASMs) should be guiding the scouts for the long-term growth of the scout and success of the patrols.

I have had parents make accusations, and I have had to remove a scout from the troop, and I have had to take scouts to the hospital, all in my first year. Instilling confidence in our scouts' parents (as well as our scouts) is what being the SM is all about. Putting together a team of supervisors (ASMs) to assist in seeing that the program is being developed properly is part of this. BP said that scout is a game. In a way, this is true for me, too. Just as a scout gets great pleasure from the game of scouting, I take tremendous pride in orgaizing and "managing" the team which sees that the scouts experience this game in a meaningful and positive way. Relying on them to make decisions (sometimes good, sometimes not) is part of the game. Seeing them grow from these experiences is part of my joy.

Do I need to be given a "break"? Not often. I expect people to be critical of my program and prehaps even of the values we instill in our patrols and scouts, especially those who do not see the "big picture" or appreciate Scouting's methods. Selling this program to them is also part of my job, and I relish it. It is also other's critical eye which often give me new ideas and helps to keep me on track as well.

This is all a bit of a tangent, but I see this as reflecting the validity of the organization and structure of our troops and patrols. Accepting this concept may be key to appreciating that it works, and has in the BSA for 100 years, and in other environments for 200 or more years before that. I hate to use military comparisons, as people mistake the analogy as a statement of para-military association, which is not correct. However, Baden Powell was an army officer, and structurally there are some organizational comparisons which are difficult to argue. Allow me to quote from about.com regarding the US Army:

The basic building block of all Army organizations is the individual soldier.

[The focus of BSA centers around the progress, skills and personal growth of the individual scout.]

A small group of soldiers organized to maneuver and fire is called a squad.

Squad - 9 to 10 soldiers. Typically commanded by a sergeant or staff sergeant, a squad or section is the smallest element in the Army structure, and its size is dependent on its function.

[this is very much like a PATROL of 6-8 scouts, which is led by a mid-level youth leader, not unlike an army sergeant; the PATROL acts in concert, cooking, cleaning, hiking, and exploring their world together.]

Platoon - 16 to 44 soldiers. A platoon is led by a lieutenant with an NCO as second in command, and consists of two to four squads or sections.

Company - 62 to 190 soldiers. Three to five platoons form a company, which is commanded by a captain with a first sergeant as the commander's principle NCO assistant. An artillery unit of equivalent size is called a battery, and a comparable armored or air cavalry unit is called a troop.

A company is typically the smallest Army element to be given a designation and affiliation with higher headquarters. This alphanumeric and branch designation causes an "element" to become a "unit."

[The platoon/company structure makes good comparison to a Boy Scout troop, which is the smallest registered and numbered unit in the Council. The leader of the troop is the SPLsimilar to a young officer with an NCO second (ASPL); the SPL coordinates (not runs) the actions of the Patrols (through the PLs). When you include the SM and ASMs (and committee), the company (platoon/company) reflects the Adult leadership of the Boy Scout troop]

This is not a flawless comparison, by any means, but the structure is remarkably similar. Army squads really are the little teams which do the dirty work (like patrols acting as a small group). The platoon or company, as a whole is too large an organization not to be broken into smaller, functional blocks, each with their own leaders. Baden-Powells British army of the late 19th century is obviously different from the modern US Army, but I believe that Boy Scouts organization within the troop probably closer resembles that historic military unit and structure. Remember, also, back in BPs day, young boys (early teens) often went into the army, and worked their way up based upon their leadership and skills.

Kudu presents an excellent comparison to a naval ship of the 18th and early 19th century, as is accurately depicted in the movie Master and Commander: Far Side of the World. He provides a great synopsis here for comparing the organization of gun crews to the patrols of a troop, each led by a young capable leader. Check out his site for details.

It works because it works. Don't try to make the wheel an oval so it looks sleeker. It won't roll better because of it.

Per the Advancement Committee Guidebook states clearly (sorry I don't have it on me so I can't quote exactly the current issue) that only the national office has the authority to change a requirement.

Regardless of your son's SM's intentions, he is leading your son down the wrong path. I would consider visiting other units and see how they operate. I don't know how much more blunt I can be and still be polite.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)