MikeS72

26 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

What is the exact wording from the pamphlet?

Cut and pasted directly from the pamphlet on scouting.org.

I think that the OP is refering to the note at the bottom of page 204.

(l) Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a benchrest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter. Using these targets, explain how to adjust sights to zero a rifle.

(m)Adjust sights to center the group on the target* and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) A-32 targets—9; (2) A-17 or TQ-1 targets—7; (3) A-36 targets—5

*NOTE: It is not always practical to adjust the sights (i.e., when using a borrowed fixed-sight rifle). For requirement 2(l), you may demonstrate your ability to use the shooting fundamentals by shooting five shot groups (five shots per group) in which all shots can be covered by or touch a quarter and then explain how to adjust the sights to zero the rifle used.

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

How many units and scouts are affected by this decision?   A friend of mine thought there were around 50 units in his council.  

If you are refering to the UMC units; a lot.  After the LDS exit the UMC became the largest charter partner in BSA.  I believe I read somewhere north of 2,000 units nationwide.

On 6/24/2022 at 2:34 PM, Eagle1993 said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Catholic charters follow.

In many council the Catholic Dioceses has already withdrawn from charterining units.  In my council units have been told that when the current charters expire they will not be renewed.  Many of us are hoping that something similar to the UMC agreement can be worked out with the Dioceses.

2 hours ago, physics32 said:

We’ve decided to establish a non-profit corporation, made up of parents, to own most of our troop’s current camping equipment/troop tents/uniform library.  Being a UMC unit, we had foreseen some sort of recharter on the horizon for the last couple of years.  We’ve kept this parent purchased/owned equipment as loaned from individuals rather than seeking reimbursement, in order to give us flexibility and prevent it from being sold off or redistributed.  

At this point, we won’t seek to be the chartered org, but it may be an option in the future, especially if our council doesn’t like the new agreement as appears to be the case with Michigan Crossroads Council.

It appears that there are quite a few councils who do not appear to care for or support the UMC Affiliation Agreement.

By the way, I noticed the noblest of creatures in your profile pic!  Beaver Patrol, MT-14 1972 here!

4 hours ago, PACAN said:

Proofs in the pudding.  Who has the agreement they could PM me?

Just sent it to you.

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

The Catholic Church through the National Catholic Committee on Scouting continues to support the chartering of scout units (both Boys and Girls) in individual dioceses and parishes.  Of course they are free to choose not to or not to continue to charter.

Units in our council have been told by the Diocese that they will no longer charter units.  I have seen this happen in a number of other areas as well.  Maybe local councils can re-open discussions with these Diocese using this as agreement as a model.

1 hour ago, PACAN said:

There is the assets question.   Will the individual UMC still allow storage of gear they don't control on their property?  Will that stuff be insured by the church?  If the trailer hits a car in the parking lot, do you sue the council?  Will be BSA as the sponsor rent a u-store it place for each unit they inherit.   Some units not only have trailers but some have their own motorboating and cabins.  On the cash side, LCs are at least 30 days in paying bills.  How does that work for unit expenses?  Collect the fees for campout food, deposit it with the council and send them the bill from the grocery store?   O the humanity!

On page 3 of the agreement it states "Allow the unit(s) to store a reasonable amount of materials and equipment in a designated area."

On page 4 under the unit responsibilities it states "Reimburse the local council for cost of insuring unit's assets and equipment".  In the same section it states "Follow all local council policies and procedures regarding the management of funds.  For units specific bank accounts, units will submit annual finance report and other reporting as prescribed by the local council".

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

The question was asked in the Q&A about how this structure could be proposed without outlining the way in which assets are transferred, how they will be held (sequestered?), managed, requested and made available.

We will see exactly what the information we get from council will say in relation to unit assets, but my initial thought is that it will not be much different than it is now with the charter organization being the technical owner of those assets.  Just means that instead of a troop trailer being registered in the CO's name it will be registered in the name of the local council.  While we will have to wait a few days for word on exactly how this will work, I cannot picture anyone being told that they must turn equipment in to be held by the council.  Think of the logistical nightmare of a council trying to store hundreds of trailers and thousands of tents, chuck boxes, etc.  Not to mention checking those items back out to units.  They would need several new full time employees just to begin to cope with things.

39 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

Does anyone know what is going on with the Catholic Church and their future with Scouting?

I know some dioceses ended the relationship but not all. I would think there will be a national guidance issued.

My hope is that they will see this model and work to offer a similar affiliate agreement rather than simply telling units that have a long tenure with their parish to go away.

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Based on my tracking of the chat and Q&A, that's an empty hope, in terms of everyone taking this new path.

I am sure that some UMC chartered units will try to find a new CO, and I wish them luck in doing so if that is what they feel is best for their scouts.

Having read through the affiliation agreement I don't really see much of a change in day to day operations other than the fact that unit assets will belong to the council rather than the CO and that units will have to make changes to bank accounts using the council EIN rather than the CO's.

22 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

email I just got from the SE.   Its all very "clear"

 

 

It was made pretty clear during the webinar last night that there will be no variations of the affiliation agreement from council to council or unit to unit.  As far as I understood what was presented the UMC local church and the unit can enter into this affiliation agreement with the local council taking ownership of the unit and it's assest or the unit can seek another charter organization and request a facilities use agreement.

They said that they expect to sent out a link to everyone who was registered for the webinar in about a week or so with the recording of the proceedings and a FAQ answering questions that were posted last night.

13 hours ago, Dixit said:

UMC and BSA agree on new "affiliation agreement" which relies on the Council chartered unit model

https://www.resourceumc.org/en/content/gcumm-shares-new-path-forward-for-scouting-ministry

This is what I said last fall was the most likely outcome of the negotiations between the UMC and BSA.

I don't think that it is a stretch to think that this may be the norm in a few years and that many of the larger charter organizations will go the same route.

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I think I’ll let someone who “knows” me, the case, my posting history, and this specific issue defend the point (and me). 

I would be glad to defend you.  I completely understood what you were saying.  Not absurd at all.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Now, I believe only 2 chartered orgs are fully freed from pre 2020 liability (LDS & Methodist) if this deal goes through.  The remaining chartered orgs are free from ~1976 and prior liability but could face lawsuits post 76 to present.

If I understand everything that I have read you may have said liability backward.  As I understand the insurance issue Charter Orgs were not specifically covered PRIOR to 1976, and could therefore be left holding the bag for any claims from whenever the abuse may have taken place, up to 1976.

1 hour ago, Tron said:

At this point my opinion of Scoutreach is that if you are poor and not in the inner city Scoutreach is not for you.

We have an active ScoutReach program in our area, which is most definitely suburban rather than inner city.

13 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Acccording to B&D’s (scrap yard) marketing director Kimberly Strobel , a man showed up at the yard trying to sell metal. A cashier went out to inspect the load on the scales, confirmed it appeared to be a cut-up art piece, and said no sale. Cameras captured his arrival, Strobel said.

It is good to see that they did the right thing and turned the thief away.  Since it says his arrival was caught on camera there is hope he will be identified and apprehended.

Have a few of these from the early 70's around the house.

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Update: Statue FOUND!

Parts of the statue were discovered at B & D Scrap Metal when fire crews responded to a fire at that facility.

https://www.counton2.com/news/local-news/missing-boy-scout-statue-found-at-scrap-metal-facility/

I wonder if the owners of the scrap yard can be held liable, as however the statue got there it should have been pretty evident that it did not arrive legitimately.

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

inally, a focus on quality and not quantity of units.  We have many units limping along.  Get scouts into fewer/better units will be best in the long run.

I brought this very thing up several years ago and was lucky to make it out of the room in one piece!

Makes no sense at all to me that you can have 3 troops/packs meeting within 1 mile of each other, all struggling to draw more than a hand full of members to a meeting.

2 hours ago, Cecille25 said:

There was more than enough evidence from those at camp, voice messages, texts and photos of the incident.

Just a few questions to help clarify things:

1.  Were any of the other Scouts in the troop willing to step up and confirm what your sons told you happened, or did they all remain silent?

2.  You stated earlier that the SM has been reported for similar behaviors multiple times.  Did any of these incidents involve other Scouts in the troop, or were they all directed toward your son?  Was there a pattern of conflict between them?

3.  You also mentioned that the troop t-shirts were sold in a variety of colors.  Was this event one in which each Scout wore the color they liked best, or was it one where they were all asked to wear the same color (if indeed they all have the same color)?

4.  Was anything worked out during the event to allow your son to participate or was he in fact excluded?

Regardless of the answers to these questions it appears as though things are pretty toxic for you and your son in this troop, and I would recommend looking elsewhere.

25 minutes ago, Cecille25 said:

Oh, I am not attending the meeting. It is just a witch hunt. I contacted the national help line and they said that the incident information is confidential since it concerns a youth. What she is doing is wrong and to contact my local Executive. We did and he gave us the brush off and said he’s not listening to anything nor acknowledging our emails. We went above him and he refused to speak to us. So I now emailed the help line with help on the matter. Unfortunately I think it will come down to us leaving a this corrupt troop. It is just sooo frustrating that if an organization has in place measures to prevent and report such matters it should take it seriously and not brush it off. That bad behavior is celebrated and they have no regard for the kid. 

I would highly recommend using beascout.org to find a new troop in your area.

Curious as to who may have said "he is not listening to anything" when it comes to an adult treating a child like this.  (no names please)   Was it the Council Scout Executive or your local District Executive?  If it was the District Executive I would check the council website and look at the contact information for council staff and escalate.  I would be concerned about adults who feel that is appropriate behavior continuing to work with children.

I can also assure you that your son was not the only one wearing a pink shirt at that event, I saw quite a few Scouts from other units in various shades of pink.  It is obviously a shirt that was obtained from the troop, so any color that they made available should have been acceptable to the SM/ASM.  This evidently upset your son enough to cause him to seek assistance in the health lodge.  If an adult upset my Scout to that extent we would have made the decision to leave that unit without hesitation.

2 hours ago, elitts said:

I'm going to agree that, on it's face, this wasn't really a YP violation.  It may well have been a "Bad Scoutmaster " situation, but not a Youth Protection violation.  A single incidence of being mean or rude or unkind isn't  "Bullying", it's just being unpleasant. 

I am pretty much in agreement with most of what I see you post, both as a moderator and in general, but this time I would have to disagree.  Based on the totality of what the OP has said this instance does very much rise to bullying behavior, especially since this individual seems to have been reported for similar 'bad behavior at least three times.  In addition to an imbalance of power having already been mentioned one of the other criteria to classify bullying is that it is repeated behavior.  That repeated behavior does not have to involve the same target.  The bully can target several individuals at different times, it is still bullying.

There should be zero tolerance for one adult to treat a child as described, let alone two adults.

As for it being a youth protection violation, bullying is very much a part of youth protection.  As a matter of fact, there is a two page fact sheet on bullying included in the YPT section at scouting.org.  Part of that fact sheet states the following:  Contact your Scout’s unit leader or the council Scout executive.  It also states:  Expect the bullying to stop. Talk regularly with your Scout and with Scouting leaders to make sure it has stopped. If the bullying persists, contact the council Scout executive; and If Scout leaders are not keeping your Scout safe from being bullied, contact your local Scout executive. If your Scout executive is not available, contact the Scouts First Helpline at 1-844- SCOUTS1 (1-844-726-8871)

On 5/11/2022 at 2:04 PM, OaklandAndy said:

From what i understand, it can be from the unit level on up?

Ideally a ticket should be directly related to your primary role in Scouting.  Cub related, Scouts BSA related, District or Council related etc.

On 5/4/2022 at 9:55 AM, Owls_are_cool said:

Our chartering organization (a Catholic Church) has notified us that they will no longer be our CO at the end of 2022

My unit is awaiting a final decision on what will happen with UMC as a chartering organization.  In the meantime, all Catholic Church chartered units in our council have been told that the church will no longer charter units effective 12/31/2022.

Welcome

3 hours ago, jscouter1 said:

This might be slightly off topic for this, but if I am considering option #3 right no. Does anyone think that another troop would take offense if I do a dual membership thing just to join the OA?

As @scoutldrstated, you do not "join" OA, you are elected by the members of your troop.  In order for someone to be elected, the scouts in the troop should know that person well.  Were I still a youth member I would be leery of voting for someone who dual registered for no other reason than to use our troop to gain election to OA.

If becoming an Arrowman means that much to you, I would either try to convince your SM that being elected to OA is not going to cause you to neglect your troop, and therefore allow an election to be held.  If that cannot be accomplished you have to look at the possibility of leaving your current troop and transferring to another unit.  If you choose that option, be aware that a unit may only have one election per year.  I many areas those elections may have already be conducted, so you would have to wait until next election cycle, by which time the scouts in the new unit should know you well enough to decide whether or not they want to elect you.  I hate to bring up the negative aspect, but understand that not all scouts who are eligible for election or who would like be elected are chosen by their troop.

What ever decision you end up making, I wish you well in all of your scouting endeavors.

3 hours ago, jscouter1 said:

This might be slightly off topic for this, but if I am considering option #3 right no. Does anyone think that another troop would take offense if I do a dual membership thing just to join the OA?

As @scoutldrstated, you do not "join" OA, you are elected by the members of your troop.  In order for someone to be elected, the scouts in the troop should know that person well.  Were I still a youth member I would be leery of voting for someone who dual registered for no other reason than to use our troop to gain election to OA.

If becoming an Arrowman means that much to you, I would either try to convince your SM that being elected to OA is not going to cause you to neglect your troop, and therefore allow an election to be held.  If that cannot be accomplished you have to look at the possibility of leaving your current troop and transferring to another unit.  If you choose that option, be aware that a unit may only have one election per year.  I many areas those elections may have already be conducted, so you would have to wait until next election cycle, by which time the scouts in the new unit should know you well enough to decide whether or not they want to elect you.  I hate to bring up the negative aspect, but understand that not all scouts who are eligible for election or who would like be elected are chosen by their troop.

What ever decision you end up making, I wish you well in all of your scouting endeavors.

I think that is a reference to any appeals via District Court.

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Quoted from a Facebook group comment:  "New Cub uniform from waist up has gone up 23% and handbook from 16.99 to 23.99. Pocket cards from .19 to 29. Belt loop from 1.49 to 1.99. 1819 items had a price increase in the cover of darkness overnight on Thursday. Councils notified at 7am in Friday."

Not sure when this increase went into effect, but looking at scoutshop.org now and Cub handbooks are still listed at 16.99.