MikeS72

4 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

A protest?  I don't see any mention or even an implication of such in the OP.    

I don't think it had anything to do with uniform issues, but on the day that I saw the scout the OP was upset with the event schedule included an ArrowPride luncheon.  My thought when seeing him was that he would be taking part in that event.  I did see members of his contingent several times during the week, as we were assigned to the same dining hall for meals.  As far as I remember they were ALL in full uniform at dinner.  I even ended up at the same table in the dining hall with that group for lunch midway through the week, and spoke with him briefly.  No one in his group seemed to have any problem with him, so I saw no reason why I should.  It made no sense for me to get upset with how someone I did not know and only spoke to once chose to dress, just like it made no sense for me to be upset with the countless people, youth and adults, who had position patches on their right sleeve instead of the left, or temp patches on their left pocket instead of rank.  Far more important issues in the world and in scouting to worry about.

55 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Thanks, great two page article which included

Enjoyed reading the article, as this was my original council (15 years after the statue was dedicated).

1 hour ago, Tatung42 said:

I'm not going to lie.  When I clicked on the topic, I thought it said "CHP arrests camp buglers".  🤣

 

I have heard a bugler or three who could have been arrested for murdering musical notes!! 😋

12 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

VFC?  VFW?  

Based on his descriptions I would venture to say that VFC stands for Volunteer Fire Company.

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

Wonder how many UMC scouts they estimate dropping?

Unlike when the LDS units dropped and most of their membership left the UMC situation should be more of a change in CO status with most of those units and scouts remaining in the program.  I am sure we will lose a few units and scouts, but not the mass drop in enrollment that some are fearing.

3 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

Our Troop is 50 years old...exemplary...90 Scouts including about 20 girls...

Could be that your district has assigned someone due to the above statement.  A unit of 90 Scouts that includes 20 girls is operating outside of the separate units for boys and girls rule.

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

At this event there was a uniform standard that was established, so, if you are going to pay the fees and attend this event, abide by the standard. 

Here is the uniform standard for said national event (there have been enough things mentioned that I am 99.999% sure which event is being referenced.  I also spoke to that 'former head of an airline' at length, and think he will do a fine job in his new postion within BSA):

All conference participants and staff are to be in full field uniform at dinner and all evening shows. For breakfast, lunch, training sessions, day time and evening activities and events, participants and staff may wear a NOAC, OA or Scout t-shirt or golf shirt with their Scout shorts or trousers during the conference.

6 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Where I am going with this is...  If we can, and I believe we can, put together enough adults who are MBC to have MB opportunities for the week.  What stops us from find a new pretty place in the United States to travel to.  Find a group camp site.  Cook our own meals.  Plan our own activities.  Use our own stuff.

Absolutely nothing; as long as you can run a fun and safe program and that is what your scouts choose to do.  As @malrauxstated above it does require a lot of work, both by the youth and the adult volunteers.  My troop has not done this in place of summer camp, but we have done a number of other full week programs.

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Oh, that's a different patch.  What does that mean?"

"It's my knot showing support for LGBTQIA+."

"Is that an official BSA knot?"

"No, I just like to wear it."

"Did you know that was against BSA's uniform policy?"

"Yeah, I just like to wear it."

"So, what does it mean to you that "A Scout is Obedient"?

I have also seen scouters wearing that particular knot, and while not approved in my council I did speak to people who in casual conversation (I have never confronted anyone for wearing it) stated that their local council has approved it for uniform wear.

While he is not a member of council I did happen to eat lunch at the same table as the young man wearing the tutu (although not the same day he wore it) and found him to be articulate and well spoken.  I was well aware why he chose to wear the tutu the day he wore it and was not embarrased in the least by someone I only met and spoke with once and will likely never meet again.

3 hours ago, curious_scouter said:

 

 

I was typing something almost identical to this So I will just quote and add:

Avoid assumptions as well.  Just because a Scout is at an "expensive event" does not mean they paid to be there.  There are plenty of Camperships, Sponsorships, Volunteer chances to attend these larger spendy events with no or low cost.  This does not mean that Scout and their family have the means to be fully kitted for whatever reason.

Thank you.  I was at said national event and several members of our contingent were able to attend due to said lodge scholarships.

6 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I don't understand why its so hard to follow the rules or deal with the consequences.  If the rule is wear the suit then wear the suit otherwise don't make up the rule.  

This is where we differ in addressing uniform issues.  The uniform is one of the methods of scouting, it is not one of the aims.  There is no rule stating that any scout must have a uniform in order to participate in any event.  

5 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

So what happens if someone shows up at a BOR wearing swim trunks, flowers shirt, and flip Flops?  Do we have the BOR; try to figure out the reason for this attire; send them home to change; or cancel the BOR.

We have the BoR.  While it is recommended that a scout wear the uniform to a BoR, or at least as much of it as he/she owns, a scout cannot and should not be denied if they are unable to obtain a uniform.

As I stated earlier in this thread my scout and I are always in complete uniform for all activities.  I can afford multiple uniforms and have no problem wearing a different complete one that is specific to the position I am representing at the time.  Not everyone can do that, and as someone else mention earlier today the 'you can find them in thrift stores' thing is not always true.  I will repeat what I said a couple of days ago:  the uniform itself is not nearly as important as the person inside the uniform (or the jeans and t-shirt if that is all they can manage).

4 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

 But...........when a young man chooses to wear a pair of tights and a ballerina tutu, he becomes an embarrassment for the others within the same organization.

Would this perhaps have been at the recent NOAC at UT Knoxville?  I do recall seeing a young man from a different Lodge dressed like that, although not while wearing any part of the uniform.  Did not look like most in attendance gave him more than a passing glance.

36 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Comfortable?  Taped up, banded up, padded up, then put your jersey and pants on, then grab your helmet, not so comfortable.  I'm not going to say that I know why scout uniforms are not popular and I agree to an extent.  Uniforms and patches are expensive but if someone doesn't present themselves in appropriate dress they shouldn't be permitted to participate.  If a uniform standard is required, then apply the standard and be happy.  Otherwise, cancel the standards,  let everyone "express themselves", and wear what they want.  DO NOT ESTABLISH A STANDARD AND LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHEN SOMEONE DRESSES IN AN OFFENSIVE, EMBARRASSING,  AND INAPPROPRIATE  WAY, and just pretend it's all ok.  

My days as a scout were in the 60's when everyone in the troop was in a complete uniform for every activity and every troop meeting included a uniform inspection, so I fully understand the desire to see that type of uniforming by our current scouts.  My uniform and that of my scout are complete down to the socks, everything is in the correct place and everyone in my unit, district and council is used to the fact that they will never see us incorrectly uniformed.

I am not really sure what you are referring to as far as scouts or scouters dressing in an offensive, embarrassing and inappropriate way.  While I love seeing those scouts who are on top of their uniforming game, I would much rather see enthusiastic scouts enjoying and learning the lessons scouting offers even if they do not own a uniform.  I often hear the "if they really want it they will find a way to afford the uniform" line from people, but that is not always reality, particularly in the Cub Scout program where parents are expected to buy a new handbook, neckercheif, slide, and hat every year.

Seeing a scout who can only afford a shirt should never be offensice, ebarrassing or inappropriate.  It is what is inside that shirt that matters, not the shirt itself.  

I would hope that most here would agree with me.  I know not all will, and that is fine.

3 hours ago, Scoutmaster Teddy said:

I have several UMC units in my district. As District Commissioner I had to tell them that having the Council as a charter partner was a "no."

Anyone else have this issue? 

That is also the case in my council.  We were informed last week that all UMC units have until Oct. 31 to complete the process of finding a new CO. 

8 hours ago, FireStone said:

I had no idea Boy Scout Cigarette Cards were a thing. And now I'm on ebay looking to buy some. 😄

Based on the illustration this is from some other Scout Association rather that BSA, most likely one of the European associations.  I googled CWS cigarette cards and the only company I could find seemed to be Dutch.

19 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I figure its a result of Council not wanting to be in the business of chartering Units.  Also, possible something was worked out at the Council level so they assume liability so that option 1 is an option?

Unless something has changed in the last few weeks the UMC was very upfront during the webinar with them and national council that there would be no exceptions to what was in the negotiated affiliation agreement.

As many councils do not want to go the council holds the charter route I am pessimistic about the future of scouting and the UMC.

9 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I apologize for being cynical, but I remember the old days when Arrowmen were held in higher esteem than Eagles.

I have been both an Arrowman and an Eagle for more than half a century.  Both were more rare back then than they are now, but I can honestly say that I have never known anyone who felt that being an Arrowman was a greater honor than being an Eagle.

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Scouts use to be able to have their name withheld from teh ballot if they were not interested, now they automatically get put on it, even if they stated publicly they have no interest.

This one I will have to look up in the Guide to Inductions to see if there is any mention of putting someone on the ballot even if they object.  I do know that I have seen Scouts left off of the ballot at their request on several occasions.

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Arrowmen are supposed to be experts in camping and they should camp a lot to earn that reputation from their peers.

Back in the day when OA was Scouting's honor camper society that was true.  Today OA is officially Scouting's National Honor Society.  Camping requirements are still a part of the selection process, but no longer the main emphasis.

4 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

To sort out the children (first year scouts) from the scouts, set a troop rule that only scouts with a minimum 0f 10 campouts and summer camp in the last 12 months can vote for OA candidates.

Units control who is eligible for election through the approval of the SM.  Units select the date of the election within the time frame specified by the lodge and chapter.  Procedures for how the elections are conducted are set by OA, and should be uniform nation wide.  While an election team will tell the unit that if there are brand new crossovers who do not know anyone well enough to be comfortable with voting they have the option to not submit a ballot.  It is not unusual to see some of those new scouts take that option, particularly since we hold election in the fall and frequently have brand new recruits who have not yet had the opportunity to camp regularly with the older scouts.

I am confident that if one of our election teams was told "we do not allow anyone who does not have 10 days and nights of camping along with a summer camp to vote"; that unit would be informed that that is not how elections are  conducted.  (not to mention that those requirements to vote are more stringent than those to be elected).

I do sometimes wish that lodges or chapters would not encourage units to elect everyone who meets the minimum requirements, and that there was once again a max number of people who could be elected from the unit each year.

46 minutes ago, seattlecyclone said:

Interesting. I figured there'd be some rule against wearing a uniform that was discontinued before any of the youth in my unit were born; would be less "uniform" looking that way. But if it's allowed...well, a Scout is thrifty and buying new clothes unnecessarily is bad for the environment, so I may just keep the old one.

If you earned your Eagle in the 90's you will find that a lot of folks still wear that uniform.  It is made of a different material (more comfortable) than the new uniform shirts.  Other than that the biggest thing you will notice at just a glance is the brown buttons rather than the tan on the uniforms we currently have, along with saying Boy Scouts of America over the right pocket rather than the new BSA logo.

4 hours ago, FireStone said:

There isn't anything uniquely native-American about shooting a flaming arrow into a lake or painting your face.

As long as there is a lake for that flaming arrow to be extinguished in that can still be impressive, and I was the person shooting that arrow on several occasions (might not quite jib with the Outdoor Code or Leave No Trace though 😇).

As for the face painting, I remember ceremonies in the 60's where the was not only face paint used but the team went through a couple of gallons of red body paint to mimic native coloration.  Looking back now, I cannot believe we thought that was ok.  One of the primary reasons we stopped using face paint was that a lot of it was copied from what those ceremonialists saw in pictures.  The problem with that was that may of those pictures depicted designs that were religious in nature; I am greatful that we no longer do that.

20 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm taking this as intended humor. So, as someone who has spent almost their entire 64 year life in Oklahoma, I will go ask one if you want. You can't sing a cat here without hitting someone with some Native American blood. Was there a specific tribe from your area.  My son-in-law is 1/32 Cherokee and went to a high school with the Indians as their mascot. That should do.

However, we did a lot of Native American theme ceremonies in our pack and my experience is that Native Americans are less concerned about details of the ceremonies than they are of respect toward their culture. Oh, there are activist of course, but that isn't the nom.

our pack had one dad who was Eskimo. I know, but he was hired by and oil company in Oklahoma. He was so excited about how our pack used the Native American theme that he volunteered to help in anyway he could. Songs, costumes, whatever. He felt so honored when I asked him to help me plan an awards ceremony. He chose to lead a dance that included all 200 attendees at the pack meeting. That was a long time ago, but my adult sons still talk about it. He told me one time that the Native American youth on average come from families of drugs and alcohol, so any celebration that shows respect and pride toward the Native American culture is welcome. Everyone of our Bobcats received a feather headband.

Barry

 

I do not usually respond to your posts as I see them a coming from a perspective that is decades old and may not fit well in today's wold.  

That being said, there is just some much here that is wrong on many levels, particularly that next to last sentence Native American youth comes from a family of drugs and alcohol.  I feel for anyone who would make a comment like that, regardless of source.

On 7/9/2022 at 12:28 AM, mrjohns2 said:

My perspective says all do, at least in my section. Maybe I don’t have a good national view. 

We do elections and call out in the fall, with our ordeal weekends in January.  Helps keep them alive during the ordeal by not doing it in the Florida summer heat.😁

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Not really digging the Council Fee option in the hand dandy graphic.  

We have a council fee, but our council uses it to be able to provide a number of activities at no additional charge to units.  Things like district camporee, cub family camp, cub district shooting sports days, BALOO and IOLS training no longer have a fee associated with them.  They also greatly reduced the fees for both NYLT and Woodbadge.

5 hours ago, yknot said:

I don't think it's honest to say that an organization that can produce and still to this day perpetuate and protect a situation like Mic-O-Say isn't outside of the norm and doesn't foster, closed, cultlike subsocieties and mentalities. I'm not aware that the Y's of the world or the Little League have anything even remotely comparable. If BSA can close ranks around something as ... I'll be nice and call it questionable ... as Mic-O-Say, who could trust that it wouldn't have closed ranks around anything else it deemed inconvenient to acknowledge? 

As far a I am aware Mic-O-Say is limited to one council and one camp.  Many of the complaints that I have seen raking OA over the coals for cultural insensitivity are actually accounts of Mic-O-Say and have had photos to show that.  To the average outside person, there is no difference.  In this day and age I do not see how it is still allowed to continue unchallenged by National.  

I have downloaded this to compare with the version released prior to the online webinar many of us attended on June 16th.  Before I compare it line by line, has anyone else done that and if so, are there substantial differences or is this the same document?

Also, is anyone else in a council who has said that they will not (at least at this time) be offering the option for the council to hold the charter?  This is dated 6/29/2022 and we were told on 6/30 that our council wouild not  (at this time) serve as CO for units currently chartered by the UMC.