MikeS72

10 hours ago, David CO said:

Sorry.  I have to disagree with you here.  Many people work in jobs/professions that involve contact with children.  You can't expect people to forgo employment in order to comply with YPT.

Should I have quit my teaching job because we did not have 2-deep leadership in my classroom?  That kind of scrutiny to BSA rules would be ridiculous.  

 

Directly from the Barriers to Abuse FAQ:

There are careers that may require one-on-one contact with youth, however aside from those roles, volunteers must abide by the youth protection policies of the BSA even outside of Scouting activities.

12 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

So how did at least 2 abusers get into my troop?  How was one of them able to go to another state and allowed to apply and only when his name found was his application denied?  Only god knows what the second person was able to continue doing.  
I think that the imperators in your reply is “expected”.  Judging by the size of the perversion files this was not routinely carried out. 

So how did at least 2 abusers get into my troop? - Did either have family in your troop?  Were either former youth members of the troop?  Not knowing the time frame, could also have been due to not having the background check system now in place; or could also have been due to having no prior record to show in a background check.  Could also have been a case of a CoR just signing off on them without checking references.  (although they would have to have been exceptionally stupid to list someone as a reference who would have incriminating information on them)

How was one of them able to go to another state and allowed to apply and only when his name found was his application denied?  Was the abuse reported to law enforcement?  If he was able to go to another state and try to register there, probably not.  If not brought to law enforcement there would have been nothing to prevent him from trying to register elsewhere, although his application being denied at least shows being in the IVF helped prevent him from hurting someone else.

I know that there were times when parents did not want law enforcement involved, due the the stigma that would be associated if the abuse were made public.  (while child sex abuse victims should never be made public, I now of at least one instance where name was published; I cannot remember the exact age, but I believe he was 15/16, and the abuser was a school teacher)  Sometimes law enforcement got involved and the District Attorney, for whatever reason, did not bring charges.  That should not be blamed on BSA, but on the DA.  I am sure that there were also cases where a troop., district or council allowed people to walk away with no other repercussions.  That should never have been allowed to happen.

46 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

30, 40, 50 plus years ago they weren't just allowed to slip in because the door was open wide for the abusers.  The BSA had no safeguards in place for prevention period.  Anyone could be a volunteer unless the name you were using was in the files and you hadn't changed your name from your previous time when you had been caught.  

Not to be argumentative, but it is hard to say "The BSA had no safeguards in place for prevention period."  While also saying "Anyone could be a volunteer unless the name you were using was in the files".  The IVF may not have been the best system in the world, but it was an attempt to keep people out of the program.

Fifty years ago we could not do the kind of background checks we can now.  While I am sure that there were people who found a way around being in the IVF, there was no fool proof method back then of insuring it would never happen.  I will not try to say that things were always done right, I know they were not.  But I do know that people were removed from Scouting, and when possible charged and jailed.  I have first hand knowledge of a case where the adult was removed from the program, but not charged; and also of another where the adult was both removed and sent to prison.

2 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Both IH and COR, or just only one?

I seem to recall obtaining the IH signature years ago, but not sure if the IH signature is still required.

The adult application currently has a box asking for "signature of chartered organization head or representative".

21 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Ok, this is troubling. A lawyer in NJ is writing as if the bankruptcy deal has been finalized and writing/using verb tenses to suggest that this is a done deal.

What Does Boy Scouts Abuse Settlement Approval Mean for New Jersey Victims?

Emphasis mine.

No. No, no, no, no. NO!

Not sure if this is someone who has not bothered to fully educate themselves on where things truly stand with the bankruptcy court; or as the last two sections imply, they are giving the impression that people in NJ can still file claims and join in the proceeding - particularly with the solicitation in the last paragraph not making it clear if they are referring to general claims or claims against BSA.

https://www.froggtoggs.com/xtreme-lite-jacket?quantity=1&custcol_item_color=17

Very light, comfortable, breathable.

On 8/12/2021 at 8:18 AM, docSquatch said:

was reading up on the merit badges I want to council and came across this. I've found some conflicting information and was looking for clarification. 

https://www.scouting.org/awards/awards-central/emergency-preparedness/

Says:

"This award has encouraged youth to be prepared, productive, self-reliant adults active in their communities.  As of February 2019, elements of the award have been incorporated into other program materials and we will sunset the award.   Your can continue to earn the award, but the requirements will not be updated. "

I recall seeing this information a while back.  At that time, part of the notice stated that while a Scout (or adult) could still earn the award the pin and certificates were limited in supply, and once your local Scout Shop sold out of them they would not be able to restock them.

Some interesting things brought up in the FAQ's.

As a long time Arrowman (in excess of 50 years) I have seen a lot of things change over that time, some for the better, some not so much.  Change is a part of life.  Hopefully what ever comes out of Project Magellan will only serve to strengthen the OA and reinforce the positive impact it has on BSA.

25 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

The problem is that "equity" is a loaded term.  It is focused on equal outcomes, not equal resources.  Therefore, someone is likely to get more than their equal share of whatever resource, which potentially means a reduction in the potential outcome of the person better able to utilize those resources.  The current government policy on masks is a perfect example.  Some people chose to get vaccinated while others didn't.  The outcome is that everyone still has to wear a mask in certain settings.  

Are you currently active and able to look at the new training course on my.scouting?  If so, I would hope that doing so would mitigate any concerns you or others may have about the BSA approach to this subject.  One of the examples used when discussing equity is that of how we can provide additional resources and support to a Scout who may be confined to a wheelchair, in order to allow them some of the same opportunites as their fellow Scouts.  While that Scout may will not be able to do everything that his/her fellow Scouts can do, we should, whenever possible, give them the chance to do what is possible for them to do, and to have the same sense of accomplishment and belonging as every other Scout.

As to the masking example, the only thing masks and vaccines have to do with equity is in making an extra effort to provide access to vaccines to anyone who wants them.  Providing equitable access to a vaccine has nothing to do with choosing to take or not take said vaccine.

On 7/31/2021 at 12:09 AM, fred8033 said:

MB program screams for change.  Personally, I would love seeing the Citz MBs merged into Civics.  Now the big challenge is keeping the politics out of the changes.  Anything hinting at picking a side or leaning one direction or another will blow up.  100% guarantee it.

While I have not seen anything specific about a Citizenship in Society MB, or the original proposed requirements for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, I know there has been a great deal of discussion concerning the topic.  Much of the discussion has been visceral rather than logical, and dependent on emotion rather than fact.

I just completed the newly released Diversity, Equity and Inclusion adult training on my.scouting.org, and fail to see anything that I would consider controversial or contrary to the way any Scout or Scouter should already be conducting themselves.  I would strongly urge anyone here who is currently active at any level to go into their my.scouting.org account and take this short course.  (I love the fact that they set this up so that those of us who read much faster than the narration can do so without having to listen to said narration - only had a couple of short video segments that had to be watched, and was able to move through the rest of the session fairly quickly)

15 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

(Perhaps another element of YPT training-grooming techniques to be aware of-perhaps becoming alert to pre-abuse activities will prevent actual abuse.)

Examples of grooming behavior have been a part of YPT for at least the past 2 1/2 years or more.

23 minutes ago, skeptic said:

 

No, we should not be going back there, we should be trying to determine the truth.  As noted, the way the article is written, it is almost impossible to see it as not exaggerated at least.  HOW could someone be repeatedly abused and  subjected to being put in a shallow grave and urinated upon by the group without any of it coming out?  Something happened to traumatize him, but the level of depravity, while possible, seems almost beyond the pale.  Maybe I am simply too much of a skeptic, and have seen too many stories that have been "stretched" for whatever reason, to not see some doubt in this article.  But, I also suspect there is a level of authenticity, and real trauma incurred.  But, he does suggest that the issue needs to be addressed on a broader, societal level, which is good.  As another poster noted, there is a huge misconception of how much BSA can pay, as well as a segment that cares not that the overall program still carries far more benefit than negativity, especially with the more updated systems.  NONE of it will or can ever be perfect and a guarantee against the worst in society, but it can be close to it if the programs added for protection are followed and constantly improved as new info and tech becomes available.  

I read the entire article.  It does have a link to an article in the New York Daily News, from December of 2019.  It appears that he started out as one of Kosnoff's early cases, however, a footnote at the end of the article said he is now represented by a different firm; one that pretty much everyone in FL is familiar with - won't say anything else about that particular law firm.  Based on that 2019 article, this took place in New Jersey, sometime in the early to mid 1970's.

I fully support the many people who have posted here who are a part of the bankruptcy case, and know that for many of those were abused, either sexually, or as appears to be the case here, physically, no one was ever told what happened.  I understand that, and am not indicating that not speaking out at the time of the abuse has anything to do with whether the case is valid.

As Skeptic stated however; I am incredulous that someone was forced to strip, rolled up in a carpet, and locked in a closet for an entire weekend, and no one was aware it happened (or that he did not, thank God, suffocate).  I also wonder how his troop could have burned his clothing at summer camp without anyone finding out, if not during the week, certainly when he came home unclothed.  Did his parents not notice the lack of clothing they sent him to camp in?  Was there not at least one member of his troop that was troubled by seeing this happen, who would have reported it to someone, or talked about to someone else, even if bragging?

Looking at the things he is asking for in the article:

1.  The morally straight action now would be for the BSA to stand up, admit their wrongdoing, and set up a fair compensation fund for survivors.  - That is what all of the negotiations and mediation will hopefully lead to

2.  We need required, thourough and ongoing background checks for all adults supervising children in any capacity. - BSA does, and has for quite a while, required background checks of all registered leaders.  A couple of years ago we had to sign an updated background check authorization form, which gives BSA the ability to run regular background checks on registered leaders, not just the initial check.

3.  Abuse investigations must be handled by outside authorities, and we need broader and more strictly enforced mandatory reporting laws.  All BSA leaders and professionals are mandatory reporters.  As we saw with the camera case discussed in the past few days, mandatory reporting resulted in an arrest and very aggressive bail for the perpetrator.

4.  The BSA owes children and their families meaningful reforms to increase transparency and accountability for individuals who commit unspeakable acts.  Agree fully here.  As I stated in an earlier post, I support efforts to have a public accounting of any case going forward.

5.  People who bully, whether they do so sexually or otherwise, should be immediately removed, charged, and blacklisted from the BSA and any position that puts them in close proximity to children – there should be no second chances for anyone.   Bullying behavior is already a YPT violation on it's own, and when reported can result in the individuals being banned from Scouting.  Bullying such as what he describes in the article should also result in at least charges of child endangerment.

6.  The Boy Scouts should also fund third-party counseling of children abused within their organization.  - This has been discussed here on many occasions.  BSA has offered to pay for counseling for any victim, at the therapist of their choice.  This has been available for a while now, and based on what we were told more than a year ago, has been done to the tune of millions.

7.  While no amount of money can make me or any other survivor “whole,” a meager payout that lets the Boy Scouts walk away will be a devastating blow. True justice in this case is impossible, but bankruptcy is the coward’s way out. The BSA has the funds to pay victims fairly, and they should.  - As was also stated in an earlier post, I am not sure what result would be acceptable to him.  Knowing the firm that currently represents him however, I would not be surprised if he was not initially made to think that there would be vastly more money coming to him than would be available even with the total liquidation of all BSA assets, both at the national and local levels.

8.  The BSA has tried to silence me since I was 10 years old, and I won’t stay quiet anymore.  -  Not saying here that he is at fault at all for not speaking out almost 50 years ago, however, I do not see how BSA could have tried to silence him since he was 10 years old over something they were not aware happened...

I know that bad things happened to a lot of boys, and that for many, reliving that now is traumatic.  I hope that whatever the final outcome of the bankruptcy, that all survivors get some measure of compensation, and some measure of relief from what I know has been years of suffering.

56 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Sorry. Were you saying I misinterpreted the context or attitude in this case? What you said is precisely my (intended) point. Let’s do the former thorough processes, in the moment and going forward, and not the later, “done and gone so let’s move on.” I think it can be self-protective human nature to do that with ugly, distasteful stuff especially if doing so avoids putting in jeopardy something we love. 

I think we are in agreement that "done and gone so let's move on" is the wrong way to deal with this issue, and all others like it.  My point was simply that in this specific case, part 2 of the process you described has worked so far, in that he was caught, arrested, charged, and with the court setting a $500,00 cash only bail, will be incarcerated for a deservedly long, long, long time.  Now comes the 'how did this happen, and were there any warning signs that were not heeded / were there any YPT policies that were ignored by either his troop, local council, or the camp'; and if so, how do we reinforce them so that it makes a repeat there or anywhere else less likely.

17 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

You made some great points and I appreciate the thought you put into it. Thanks for the info on the layout and composition of the facilities. If, as you think may be the case, these were single rooms, capturing that amount of activity on a single camera still seems suspicious. I think there is more to the story.

So, I assume any post mortem assessment to help reduce a repeat performance happens at the camp level? The LC? Who would be doing the review and who will received the benefit of the “report,” though I’ve heard no one say there are any such? Has anyone ever looked at the impact of CSA accusations, maybe even specifically convictions, on Troops, LCs and camps. In the Case of Camp S Bar F Ranch, David Lee Nelson was convicted of XYZ for acts committed in July of 2021. Camp attendance for that year was #__. Following the incident, #__ parents withdrew their registered Cubs from Cub Days. The victims sued the Ranch, Scouters, the LC...and the case settled out of court. Camp registrations for the following year were down by 28%, and etc. 

My first impression would be that his capturing the 3 boys ingaged in some kind of sexual activity may have just been coincidental.  The camp website stated that they serve in excess of 6,000 Scouts every summer.  Hard to believe that out of that many Scouts, nothing inappropriate would happen between a few of them.  If, however, he did have something to do with them being in the shower room together, I would hope that would be a factor in as harsh a sentence as possible.

As for assessments, I would think that would be primarily the responsibiltiy of the local Council, although I would love to see a task force on either the National or Territory level that could come in and look at things with an outsider point of view.  Ideally, that would be made up of outside experts in the field, rather than BSA personnel.  I am not sure if we would ever get as detailed an assessment of the effects as you mention, but as a long time Scouter I would applaud any Council who had the intestinal fortitude to release than information.

11 hours ago, ThenNow said:

There are, as is obvious, two systems. Right? One before and one after. I would argue, there must be three. The YPT part, the criminal investigation and the BSA investigation and reporting part. In this abuse context, #2 seems to have been engaged. We don’t know if it can be said to have “worked” until further down the road. 

In addition to the failure of #1, I’m keen to learn what happens with #3 Or not. How deeply into the backstory of the “means and opportunity” of this abuse will the examination delve, not just by law enforcement? What of all the ancillary human factors that made it possible? Did he know there would be sexual activities, apparently including CSA, going on where he set up his camera? Pretty coincidental. Were there others who were secondarily or primarily involved in means, opportunity and/or perpetration? Did they collaborate? Were kids encouraged or dared to have sex in there? It definitely happens. If so, who said what to whom? If this was a known spot, was it historic? Single incident? This sort of secret knowledge can be passed down from year to year. It’s not uncommon. Having ALL of this information is what can save children this horror going forward. Not, “Whew! We caught him. Thank God that’s over.”

I would agree with you that there should be (and in this climate, likely are) three componnents in play here.  I am not sure we will be privy to the results of the Council's investigation, which is why I support the idea brought up here several times, by several people, of a public reporting system any time there is an incident, not just of abuse, but any serious safety violations.  Those reports could go a long way toward helping other Councils in preventing similar incidents from happening.

Short of either posting round the clock guards at all shower facilities, or requiring the 'buddy system' not only for Scouts but also for adults, I do not see how this particular incident could have been prevented, as even with a buddy system for adults it would have been as simple as waiting until the middle of the night to leave the campsite and set up cameras.  I looked at the leader gude for this camp, and based on that I saw 3 shower facilites; one for Scouts, one for adults, and one dual use.    No pictures that I could find of those shower houses, but if they are anything like every other camp I have been to in recent years, they probably have individual rooms with locking doors.  If that is the case, I do not see how anyone would have known what he was doing when installing cameras.  My questions as far as a potential YPT failure would be two fold.  One, was he registered; and two, were there any indications at all, even if just inuendo, that he might be likely to offend.

As to many of your questions in paragraph two, it seems to be very early in the investigation right now, but hopefully all of those questions will be answered.  From the articles I have read, I do not see anything indicating that anyone else was involved, however, we would have to wait and see if that is true.

As for "Not, “Whew! We caught him. Thank God that’s over.”; this is the main reason that I read every post in this thread, but rarely respond to any of them.  It is too easy to misinterpret things in an online forum.  My feelings on this would be more "We caught him, I hope he is convicted (kind of hard not to be with him appearing on video) and is given the maximum possible sentence."  Now let's see what needs to be changed to reduce the chance of something similar occuring again.

55 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

m incredibly curious how stuff like this lands on the ears, minds and heart of Scouting parents, present and near future. Is it mentioned or considered? Discussed? Or, it’s a matter of, “Wow, but NO WAY that would EVER happen at OUR camp...”?

It was briefly brought up in the Q & A at a Cub recruiting night the first year we enrolled girls in the Cub Scout program.  The most honest answer we could give was that we take the safety and well being of every Scout, male or female, very seriously.  We always do everything in our power to ensure that nothing like this will happen, but the best way for that parent to help us do that would be to register and participate along with his daughter.

As to this particular incident, I saw the news reports several days ago.  While I was disheartened to see it happened, I was pleased to see that as soon as it was discovered it was reported to authorities, and the perpetrator was arrested.  As was mentioned earlier in this thread, zero incidents is a laudable goal, but probably not realistic.  There is however, a difference between zero incidents and zero tolerance.  In this case it appears the system worked the way it should have.  Something happened, and as soon as discovered was reported, resulting in an arrest.

2 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

There are so many policies and rules in place it's hard to tell right from wrong.

While I will agree that keeping up with the GTSS may not be the easiest thing to do, but no Scout or Scouter should ever find it "hard to tell right from wrong."

I carry Katadyn products; both filters and a SteriPen.

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

The reason for many councils doing 10, 20, and even 30 is because with summer camps shut down last year you are correct that there was no physical costs, but there were still salaries to be paid for many of these camp staffers who in many cases are year-round employees. Those fees were simply to try and make up for the loss in revenue to avoid outright layoffs.

You also saw some of these turn into complete merit badge mill with 100+ scouts in a zoom session. Again, the purpose was to make money, not keep integrity.

We also need to take into account the cost of the online platforms that councils used to conduct programs with, they are not cheap.  Depending on the platform, your council may have been paying anywhere from $600 to several thousand dollars annually, an item that was probably not a part of the original budget for the year.  I believe the cost for those sessions in my council was $5, and yes, it did greatly help avoid having people furloughed or laid off.

17 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Currently, they are being promised protection (at least for charter year 2021):

If my interpretation of the last two lines is correct, it would not cover abuse of a scout, as that is both intentional and criminal.  While it may be argued that it could not have been expected, it was certainly intended (at least by the perpetrator).

4 hours ago, Eagledad said:

That is rare, but the way it should be. How do you rate your commissioner corp.?

Barry

We are no different than many of the districts we see discussed here, in that we do not have enough of us, but our core group of commissioners and district committee members are extremely active, and are right there in the trenches along with unit leaders.

I consider myself to be lucky to be a part of what many look at as the best district in a well run council.  Just an example of how our council leadership is looking at the big picture:  when it was announced that councils could charge a program fee up to, but no more than the national membership fee, they institued that fee with a caveat.  There are no longer any fees charged for district events.  District camporee is free to all scouts and scouters.  Cub family camp is free to all Cubs/parents/siblings.  BALOO/IOLS free to all leaders.  When national then raised the recharter fee late in the year, the council leadership told us that since we announced to units back in February 2020 what it would cost per scout to recharter, they would absorb the national increase.

This is not to say that we do not have problems from time to time, but overall, I think the vast majority of scouters at both the district and council level are in it for the right reasons, and work to provide the best possible program to our scouts.

8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Most participants of adult leader training classes express that a major benefit of the classes is making new friends. How many of those participants or teachers are  commissioners? Commissioners don't mingle enough within the activities to build a friendship and trust. 

In my district most of those instructors are either members of the District Committee or are Commissioners.

6 hours ago, GrammaScout said:

I am very challenged in being able to 'open' a pdf. that I can copy and email.

What kind of device are you using to try to open the PDF with?  On a PC, clicking on the links CynicalScouter provided above should open the file in another browser window.  You should then have a 'save' icon in the top right of that browser that will allow you to save a copy to your computer, which you can then attach to an e-mail.

When on my phone (Android, so not 100% sure for iPhone users) clicking the link also opens the PDF, and by using the 3 dots in the upper right, I again have the option to save a copy of the file, which I can attach to an e-mail.

I have seen flames run right up to the spout when I scout added just a bit to an already lit fire.  Not a fun sight to see.

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