Hawkwin

16 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Cub Scout camps... several of our scouts have started attending various council camps over the last several weeks.  None of the camps have all girl dens.  If girls are present they are simply integrated into the Boy dens.  This is probably due to the limited number of girls (1-2 per Den) and lack of volunteers.  I would have made the same call, but it does put the whole notion that this will not be coed into question as Packs will see similar numbers for the first year or two. 

 It will be interesting to see how they run them next year when more girls are present.

My council camp allows for tagalongs and community day camp so we have a few girls at camp but my daughter is the ONLY Webelos 2 at camp this week (1 out of 25 with one of the other 25 being a female tagalong) so she of course is in a patrol with seven other boys.

12 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

I know its popular to blame National for any and everything but in defense of National on this so-called failure of management - the BSA issued a press release that was covered by just about everyone in the media - ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, NPR, Fox, MSNBC, CNN - and pretty much every newspaper - large and small - covered this   Time magazine covered this .  Conservative blogs covered this.  Liberal blogs covered this.  Progressive blogs covered this.  Short of the BSA sending out some kind of campaign style postcard to every house in the USA, the news was pretty much all over the place.  It's not National's failure that so many people apparently don't pay attention to news coverage.

 

I am usually one of the first to defend Nationals. I have no knee-jerk loathing for them and give them the benefit of the doubt at every opportunity. That being stated...

When my bank makes a change to my accounts, it does not rely on a press release and favorable news media and blogs to tell their story. They send me an email or a dead tree letter letting me know.

As significant as this change was, as much as Nationals wants this once in a generation membership change to be successful, every registered parent should have received an email and a dead tree letter detailing the changes - and then sent one ore two more as the details became known.

BSA/Nationals can either try to own their success, or they can rely on the media, and blogs, and press releases to make this successful. *shrug*

26 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I have a couple of questions that I'm not sure anyone on the forum can answer, when did women start taking positions at policy making level of National and how many are there now?

Barry

Depending on how you measure things, looks like 1969 and/or 1973.

http://www.oocities.org/~pack215/hist-cs-women.html

1969 Den leader coach conferences at Augustus House and Schiff Scout Reservation in New Jersey to establish training curriculum.

The first women were named to the national Cub Scout Committee: LaVern W. Parmley and Elizabeth C. Reneker. A study was conducted by BSA on the subject of "Awards for Women."

...

1973 The national Executive Board voted to allow women to serve as institutional representatives, Cub Scout roundtable commissioners, Cub Scout unit commissioners, unit chairmen, and unit committee members, den leaders, assistant den leaders, and den leader coaches.

The first women appointed to the national Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America were Elizabeth Augustus Knight and LaVern W. Parmley.

More:

https://scoutingwire.org/these-5-women-made-scouting-history/

1. LaVern Watts Parmley

As the fifth general president of the Primary of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Parmley oversaw the Sunday school program for children younger than 12 years old. During her 23 year tenure (1951 – 1974), Parmley made a massive move for Scouting: the integration of the movement into Primary programs for boys eight to 11 years old. Parmley was also the first woman to receive the Silver Buffalo award.

My daughter is at day camp this week (I chaperoned yesterday) and I have been struck by two things:

1. The number of people that were not aware that Scouts was going coed in any capacity (a failure of management - it seems Nationals relied on Boys Life and packs/troops to tell this story and Nationals should never let someone else tell your story or you lose the narrative).

2. The number of parents that expressed excitement at the idea (I know, completely anecdotal).

I get that some parents will remain clueless up and through any changes but I think it fair to assume that any parent that is involved enough to not only send their scout to summer camp but also attend, might have a higher level of involvement that would facilitate them being informed of the membership changes. Nationals could have certainly exercised change management better as it pertains to communication of the change.

For everyone else, might I suggest a book published while I was in college and used by one of my profs: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-Cheese-Mazing-ebook/dp/B004CR6AM4

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, Eagledad said:

Thanks Richard

Interesting. Nothing in your post changes  what I've been trying to say. The Laser Tag restriction at best is a bit patronizing, over controlling, and over protective. Scouting is a safe place to practice how to differentiate between harm and fun. I believe today's helicopter parenting (and helicopter mentoring in scouting) adults are a result of not giving youth practice in these kinds of activities.

Barry

Funny, I was not aware of the laser tag thing either and my daughter's pack has a scheduled laser tag event next month.

My son has attended numerous birthday parties with fellow scouts at the local laser tag and I think his pack went there as an organized event a few times (memory fails me).

4 minutes ago, TMSM said:

Any idea what the humidity would be vs 15% at Philmont?

Certainly higher at lower elevation but not bad on the higher trails (edit: though there are parts that are basically a rain forest). I can't speak to the elevation of any camp grounds but I've hiked there often in the summer without feeling overheated. We often go in June and hike for 25-30 miles with at least one day hike of 15 miles. Headed there in September this year though.

I live next door to you in Indiana and my assumption is that we have higher humidity here in the Midwest than in the Smokies.

4 hours ago, TMSM said:

Any ideas for Plan B?

We are in Illinois so we could do BWCA but the scouts wanted mountains.

One other worthy consideration is the White Mountains area of Vermont. Mount Washington, Franconia Notch, Flume Gorge... lots that can be done up there. Lovely place and a real (good) challenge to hike.

2 hours ago, TMSM said:

 Smokies might be a little hot for us in July.

Not necessarily. Don't forget, you are still 4000-6000 ft high in the Smokies too so it is cooler. Ave high is 80 with an ave low of 57.

From a quick search on Philmont, ave temp in July is 84 with an ave low of 52.

7 minutes ago, rmcmillin said:

How do you feel about professional Scouters being able to get knots?  Is it not just doing their job?  At least volunteers who earn knots do it on their own time.

 

Not really any different than the military. For the most part, they don't get ribbons for just doing their job (National Defense and Good Conduct ribbons perhaps being the exception). They get them for specific achievements, recognition, or service.

I don't see why would exempt professionals from being recognized for their specific achievements, recognition, or service. In general, working for a not-for-profit doesn't come with much of that on its own.

I used to use Badge Magic but have since upgraded to hook and loop. You should be able to easily cover the Badge Magic residues with such (it is exactly what I did).

Many entrepreneurs now sell pre-cut "Velcro" for such but I buy my own and cut it to size. Looks more professional (take a look at modern day military uniforms) and it is much easier, especially with the frequency of changes a Webelos tan uniform will experience over the next three years (e.g. journey from cubs through scouts), to pull one patch off and put on another. 

The only hiccup I had with this is the arrow of light patch. Nothing replaces it and either you have something there or you don't. I left that area with the residue (to be covered up late this year I hope).

Do a search for "scout patch Velcro" for some ideas - but pre cut and not. Walmart sells it in 12 x 4 in strips but I bought a small roll off of Amazon.

40 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

 

Or am I misinterpreting this?

No I think you got it.

And, I am not really concerned about the geotagging thing but the article got me wondering other things that are perhaps more directly damaging, like the gathering of firewood.

We also discussed, as part of our class, that we treat invasive species, like Japanese Honeysuckle, differently than Poison Ivy. LNT would have us leave Poison Ivy where it grows (in the wild) even if it is damaging other plants and trees.

https://www.adventure-journal.com/2018/06/leave-no-trace-says-stop-geotagging-petes-sake/

This story, combined with my recent BALOO/IOLS training got me wondering about what are some of the things BSA still does that we should probably stop doing if we really wanted to comply with LNT principles. I am currently working on my Outdoor Ethics so I am certainly no expert on this stuff (yet) but I've not previously had a strong impression that LNT was a high priority for many scouts or scouters when camping. That isn't to say they were destructive, just no specific awareness or heightened effort to abide by LNT (e.g. "Hey scouts, remember LNT so let's not do that...").

One of the things discussed at my recent training was that we probably should not be using any wood large enough to require an axe (this was brought up while we are learning proper care and handling of such). Are there others?

8 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Seriously I am reading how some district trainers are not going over saws and axes in IOLS and telling students that axes and saws are not safe for the Scouts to use. I thought it was a joke until someone else posted the same thing in his area.

DOH!

I am happy to report that it is still being taught in my area, even teaching it to BALOO attendees.

Hawkwin - recent attendee at IOLS.

9 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

For the Wheelbarrow, I would be willing to make the cutoff at the Boy Scout level, and again with a weight restriction of the load.  We trust them with an Axe as long as they use it safely, a wheelbarrow is a tool that can be used properly or improperly. 

Gonna play devil's advocate on this one briefly. I initially thought this was silly too until I remembered that my own scout son had issues with a wheelbarrow last year. Even now at age 12, I am not sure he could use one correctly. I wonder and assume it has much to do with their height and arm position as well as their lower center of gravity making the wheel barrow unstable (my son could not keep from tipping it over while trying to help me move a few cubic yards of mulch).

I could see some minor injuries (potential broken bones) that could happen with the use of one. No idea what is the best solution (parent waiver, prohibition, training) would best mitigate this issue though.

Let's please not turn this into another "girls in BSA" thread as this was posted in the Girl Scout forum and those of us with girl scouts can still celebrate what they are doing without it being a direct reflection on what BSA is doing.

I don't know if Polish scouts is different in this regard but all of your "weapon" care and use (Whitlin and Totin Chip) would be relevant here too. How to sharpen and care for a sword/axe/dagger.

How to ID plants and animals would fit. Outdoor survival techniques would fit too.

On 6/22/2018 at 3:48 PM, RichardB said:

Nice page, it's a shame that several of the photos illustrate putting kids at risk, and probably not healthy risks.  The horse ones in particular, shorts, tennis shoes in the stirrup, no helmet.   

Heh, SOMEONE has to try and live up to Mike Rowe's safe space challenge.

On 6/13/2018 at 10:04 PM, RememberSchiff said:

Girl Scouts recently announced a new adventure-oriented collaboration with The North Face.

My GS/CS daughter won one the national competitions associated with this collaboration last week. She will get a prize package from The North Face worth up to $500.

https://www.girlscouts.org/en/our-program/ways-to-participate/camp-and-outdoors/gs-outdoors.html

I would think an organization of our size could do a bit better than a $2,500 scholarship when the winner is the best out of 50,000. $10,000 seems more reasonable.

As primarily a parent and secondarily a volunteer, I would like to see more and better communication from my district. I want to know about other events in the district by other troops (help build the esprit de corps) as well as meeting and training opportunities. For example, I might actually attend a Round Table or two if I was able to sign up for am email reminder as opposed to trying to look such up on either the district, troop or council calendar (and often the published dates on the various calendars don't even match). It would also be very cool to be emailed the minutes from any such event to read what I missed. I might be more engaged and involved in my district if didn't hunt and search for relevant information.

I would also like more consistent communication.

I understand we are all volunteers but if I send an email to someone with a specific responsibility then I would appreciate a response, even if it is only to acknowledge receipt of my inquiry and that it will be a while to respond, in a timely manner. I feel like it has been a week or more at times when I inquired about one thing or another in my volunteer capacity.

I also have some issues with when we schedule activities. For some reason (and I have asked with no response), we always hold our Fall Camporee the 1st weekend of every school's fall break (we have 2 weeks). This forces a choice on the parents - do we skip family vacation so our scout can go to the Camporee or do we skip the Camporee? Easy choice, we skip the Camporee. Other neighbor districts hold their camporee either before or after that week so their scouts and parents don't have to make that choice. My son actually went to another district's camporee his first year as a scout because we didn't want him to entire miss out on the experience.

We also hold our Spring MB workshop in April. Why in the world we would chose April - when it is nice outside and outdoor sports have ramped up their outdoor activities - to hold an indoor workshop over February or even March is beyond me. My son often misses that event too due to outdoor soccer tourneys or other family commitments.

1 hour ago, The Latin Scot said:

But to intentionally dress TODAY in a manner that conveys the identity of the opposite sex, as I see it, wrong.

And you are completely welcome to that opinion and I don't judge you based on such, but I hope you acknowledge that it is opinion. Even if your faith proscribed or had a specific doctrine on proper attire for men and women (I am not aware that you faith does but some do), then I would hope you would no more want to force such behaviors on all scouts (not just those in your unit) than you would want Mennonites to force their own clothing opinions/doctrines onto all scouts.

If I understand your faith correctly, being attracted to someone of the same sex is not a sin, but acting on it is (much like premarital stuff is with many faiths). It does not appear that cross-dressing or any other form of "platonic" gender dysphoria is an actual sin but I freely admit I am no expert (or even a layman) but Elder Dallin seems to suggest that Mormons are starting to view gender and birth sex as two different things.

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2112602&itype=CMSID

Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles states, "This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that."

Lastly, I am sure you are familiar with your own Brigham Morris Young's history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Morris_Young

Brigham Morris Young (January 18, 1854–February 20, 1931 (aged 77)) was one of the founders of the Young Men's Mutual Improvement Association (YMMIA), the predecessor to the Young Men program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).

...

Shortly after returning to Utah, Young began publicly performing as a cross-dressing singer under the pseudonym Madam Pattirini.[1][2][3] Young performed as Pattirini in north and central Utah venues from 1885 to the 1900s. He could produce a convincing falsetto, and many in the audience did not realize that Pattirini was Young.

-----------------------

If the founder of your own Young Men movement was a cross-dresser for at least 15 years, then I would certainly think the church would allow for some grace on this issue.

Thanks for sharing! I think I am looking forward more to this event (hopefully next summer) more than any other HA destination.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

I think "revolved" is a more appropriate term. Not sure how far 'prior' you're talking about, but the record indicates that Abram in his sojourn across the fertile crescent encountered cultural and religious constructs quite similar to ours.

I think if you dressed today as Abraham did, people might think you are in 1) in a period play or 2) in drag. How we act and "dress" has evolved. Another example is that you probably don't kiss other men on each cheek as you great them today. That is an "act" that has evolved.

Our kids' middle school had a project to present a great human invention. Every year I suggested to them that there one invention that universally sets humans of all stripes apart: clothes. How we dress is an unspoken declaration of how we will act (and allow ourselves to be acted upon) within our culture. No other invention has such universal symbolism. (Money comes in at a distant second.)

Yet every culture and every time period has a different bit of symbolism. Again, entirely social constructs. Quick story - when I was in the Army in the early 90's I was deployed to Egypt. I was quite shocked by the affection otherwise straight men gave to other men. They hugged, kissed, even held hands. I automatically assumed that they were gay. This was long before the internet and "Ok Google" and it wasn't until years later that I learned that such otherwise odd behavior, that this "act" was common in their culture and was actually a way to express warm hetero affection between two men.

Who am I to tell someone what is the RIGHT way to act or dress as a man or woman? Every culture, every society, even every time period is a little bit different. There was a time not long ago in the US where women wearing pants was scandalous. Today, we don't think women wearing pants is trying to "act like a man" (and long before that, men wore skirts and wigs and tights too of course).

"We are born naked, the rest is drag." Rupaul.

16 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

It is NOT RIGHT for a man to try to act, dress, or try to be identified as a woman. It is NOT RIGHT for a woman to try to act, dress, or try to be identified as a man. 

 

 

The way we act and dress are entirely social and cultural (and religious) constructs that have clearly evolved since the time of Abraham (and prior).

11 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

 A great organization for many decades (far less so now), but still imperfect. There are better paths, as the Church has clearly realized....

With all the past controversy, program changes, et cetera, the BSA is beginning to limp along at a distressing pace. It's far better for us not to keep ourselves hitched to a wagon that's falling apart. 

I don't know exactly how to respond to this, but I know that it rubs me the wrong way. As a guy that keeps professing their commitment to getting their Brotherhood and to being the best Den Leader they can be through the end of next year, your condescension of BSA certainly appears to have increased lately.

Maybe you don't intend such a change in tone but this is not the first time that it struck me as out of character from your previous posting history, especially as it pertains to esprit de corps between BSA and LDS.