Hawkwin

All the 14-20 year old young women in the country are invited to join venturing.  For 10+ years, it has been the fastest shirnking division of the BSA.

Every European scouting association continued to have declines in male membership for decades after including females. Very few have reversed that trend (the exceptions being communist or fascist countries where scout associations had to rebuild from scratch).

Even Scouts UK is not quite up to it's pre-1990's # of boys.

OK, but what does that have to do with opening membership? If BSA, including Venturing, is currently losing members, then it does not follow logically that by being more inclusive, more members would leave. It isn't as if boys have been avoiding Boy Scouts because of girls being included. They obviously left for every other reason as girls being included was not even an issue (and not even in Venturing as they could simply join a regular troop).

I don't deny that BSA has a growth problem but that problem is highly unlikely to be related to the current discussion. No one avoided joining Cub Scouts because girls were in the Den.

Empirical conclusion: opening to girls loses boys, at least for 3 decades.

 

Based on what?!? Again, BSA (cub and boy scouts) has lost members for decades when no girls were members. There is no evidence, empirical or otherwise, that their inclusion would lead to more losses.

There is a logical fallacy in the conclusion you are trying to apply. In order for there to be empirical evidence, you would have to show that the inclusion of girls, via a regression analysis, lead to a decline in boys. No such data exists to my knowledge.

But I digress, I am willing to allow for the possibility that some boys and their parents would chose to skip out on the BSA experience because some girls got in, and perhaps even more than the number of girls that would join. I doubt it but I am certainly willing to allow for the possibility.

Doesn't mean that I would necessarily change my support for this change. I am sure some once had the same opinion about opening BSA up for other groups and I am sure BSA lost members when that happened too - but I also think it was the right thing to do. Sometimes the right thing to do is not always the most popular. I am sure we differ on what is right on this topic, and I respect your difference of opinion.

 I don't believe adding girls would offset LDS loss, and since the BSA is investigating this change I don't believe LDS would leave as a result of adding girls (my guess). If that is the case, I tend hope BSA did do the studies that show membership increase. Hopefully they are accurate          

OR, LDS has already told BSA that they are on their way out and this is viewed as a way to help offset that loss; as you are probably correct in your assumption that if LDS were to leave over this, adding girls won't offset that loss.

A properly-run organization would research to discover if customers and prospective customers would react favorably to major changes in the product line.

 

I have never seen evidence that the "professionals" at National Council have done this in the past forty-five years.  The contrary seems to be true.

 

I am, or course, interested in any documentation showing that such research has been or is being done.  Not claims - documentation.

On that we are in agreement - but I imagine such research, typically performed by random survey, would have a significant margin of error. If we look at other polling/surveys of what people think they will do at some point in the future based on a policy that has yet to be implemented, the results are often significantly different than reality.

Additionally, such a survey would have to include both current members (youth - which surveying is problematic), parents, adult leaders, and everyone that might join due to the change. That is a pretty big poll of survey recipients.

I am not sure that such results would be probative either way.

I have to say as a dad of a Brownie that got turned away from the entire district due to the three Brownie Troops being "full" thus being forced to be a Juliet for a year (when we could have just quit), nothing sucks more than being told we don't want you in our troop.

It would seem that it is in the best interest of GS to work with the leaders and the parents to find a way to include all interested girls, even if that means recruiting more parents (like a willing and dedicated dad) to take on more troop responsibility to help the leaders.

Finally found a troop last night for my GS so she has a new home for at least this year.

Maybe she will be one of the first girls to earn both the Eagle and the Gold.

You're forgetting all the scouts and scouters that would leave because of this change. BSA still hasn't corrected the increase in memebership decline from their last two policy changes. Think this will be any different?

No, not forgetting, I simply disagree with your assumption that more boys would leave over the inclusion of girls than girls that would join.

Saying "this" and making "this" happen is the difference between talking about the moon and going to it.

 

BSA has a lousy track record for implementing successful membership programs. To continue the analogy, BSA sound great in the planetarium but can't find a constellation in the real night sky.

*Chuckle* Perhaps you should have said Mars instead of the moon since we found a way to go to the moon.

The beauty of this change is that BSA would not have to implement anything - simply leave it up to the council and individual chartering organizations. More difficult to mess something up if you delegate the authority. To continue your space analogy, the failures of SpaceX are not directly the fault of NASA.

Edit: I would also add that failure is always an option and the potential for failure should not be a cause for us to avoid change. A good life lesson for all scouts.

Apparently they are not allowing commentary on the article. I Asked why are posting articles on family camping with 11-16 year olds, what that is Scout aged youth and should be doing Patrol camping. I also stated that the article is in the wrong journal since all the information is basic BALOO level info, and most packs I know of do an intro to camping for their new families.

 

EDITED: This really concerns me because it appears that BSA IS trying to promote family camping now. I have seen, and am unfortunatley seeing now, what family camping does to troops and patrols.

From reading the article, it appears that it is clearly about family camping with no association or commentary on scouts. I didn't find any mention of troops, packs or dens and in fact, the article makes many comments about renting equipment, making reservations, etc - all things a scout organization would not have to do, nor would a family have to do that decided to attend a scout camping event.

I think you may be making way too much of that article. I don't see how it is in any way a reflection of how scouts may or may not be changing in the future.

If this was an article about cooking and eating at home as a family with no mention of scouts, I would not see it as a negative commentary on patrol cooking. This is simply an article that encourages families to camp as a family, on their own, irrespective of or in addition to any scout camping the scout already does.

Edit: fixed a typo.

I just emailed our state Campfire USA org. Will see what they say about clubs in my area. I did notice that they specifically stated that they are not currently permitting any new clubs - which I would think is not a good sign.

Campfire got back to me, no clubs anywhere near me.

Oddly enough, I finally heard back from our local GS council and was told that a leader would contact me today regarding a slot in an existing troop.

Still think it might be too little too late but at least she will hopefully have a home for now.

 I can easily see the Boy Scouts of America going co-ed and changing their market name to Scouting USA.  If it were to go co-ed, I would hope that the BSA would be wise enough to make co-ed scouting a chartering organization option - if an organization wants to sponsor a boys only Cub Scout and Boy Scout program, another a co-ed program, and another a girls only program, where is the harm to Scouting?  People will make their choices - let the market decide.  If you as a leader want to only work with a boy-only unit, you'll have that option - why should you care if the Troop down the street, or the Troop in the next campsite down at summer camp has girls?  Just about everything folks have mentioned as being a potential problem can be solved - the only thing I can think of that might be a real fear is that folks who want a single-sex program would have to compete for Scouts with another Troop in their town that is a co-ed group - and they might lose.

This!

@@Hawkwin, welcome to the forum!

 

Your experience is not exclusive to fathers, btw.

 

Have you sought out American Heritage Girls? Campfire USA?

I just emailed our state Campfire USA org. Will see what they say about clubs in my area. I did notice that they specifically stated that they are not currently permitting any new clubs - which I would think is not a good sign.

@Hawkwin your experience is similar to Catherine Pollard with Boy Scouts.

 

Pollard ran a Milford, CT troop from 1973 to 1975 when no men volunteered. But her application for a leadership position was denied when the Boy Scouts contended that a woman was not a good role model for young boys enrolled in Scouting.

...

In February 1988 the Boy Scouts of America did away with all gender restrictions on volunteer positions. Pollard, who was 69 at the time, became a scoutmaster in Milford and praised the Boy Scouts' leadership.

 

"I do think that this is marvelous, because there have been women all over the United States, in fact all over the world, that have been doing these things for the Boy Scouts because they could not get a male leader. But we could not get recognition for the things we've done," Pollard said.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/dec/15/local/me-pollard15

Funny that you mention that as when I was a cub scout in 1980 in conservative rural Tennessee, my mother was my Den Leader. She still has her Den Leader dress. I realize everyone's experience is anecdotal, and I am not overly concerned about MY experience - but to turn away a girl scout because all troops in the area are full just blows me away.

@@Hawkwin, welcome to the forum!

 

Your experience is not exclusive to fathers, btw.

 

Have you sought out American Heritage Girls? Campfire USA?

No, I've been primarily focused on the organizations that have the broadest base of support and activities. The one thing that GS has going for it that is significantly better that BS is the amount of ancillary activities we can do that are organized at the council level. We typically go all over the state to various GS supported activities all on our own. I don't know but I doubt AHG or Campfire has that level of ancillary activities.

Cookie Mafia has to protect it's turf. I'm not sure why the Girl Scouts is concerned, the type of girl who would want to be involved with Boy Scouts is not the same demographic of girls who enjoy Girl Scouts. The day the Boy Scouts program looks like the Girls Scouts program is the day I think 99% of this forum throws in the towel.... 

This issue is that currently, there is NO ALTERNATIVE for girls that would prefer BS activities so they end up in GS. Once BS opens that door more than Venturing, GS will no longer have their exclusivity. Girls will be free to join the program that interests them (and their parents) the most. As a parent of a GS and a BS, my anecdotal experience is that GS are going to lose quite a few girls that want to join their brother's organization.

I am a Girl Scout Dad - "Man Enough to be a Girl Scout" is the term we use. I've been the sole support for my daughter in GS since first year Daisy. She is now (attempting) to be a Junior scout.

After her first full year of Daisies, her troop folded. All the leaders quit. All the leaders were brand new to GS.

The second year, we were given brand new leaders again, and they quit six months in. Thankfully, another parent took over - but she quit at the end of the year.

The third year (1st year Brownie), we started the troop over, yet again, with new leaders. I begged and pleaded with our local council to simply place us in existing and successful troops and we were basically ignored.

By now, you probably know the next part of this story, by the end of the year, the new leaders quit again.

I told the council that I WILL NOT have her join another new troop - that I had asked repeatedly to join an existing troop and our wishes were declined. I researched on my own other troops in the area that she could join and we were told that they were FULL. My son is a Boy Scout and I simply can't fathom the idea that our Troop of 98 boys would ever say we had too many.

For the fourth year (2nd Brownie), the local council tried to trick a number of us parents by telling us that they had a solution for the four remaining girls that were so dedicated that we were willing to try yet again to find a troop, only to be subjected to a bait and switch meeting. We should up expecting to join an existing troop and instead the council leaders tried to put us on the spot by asking one of us to take over the troop. We all declined their deception. Note that I have no problem volunteering for the troop and have done so many times. I have also been the Popcorn Kernel for my son's cub scout troop for 3 years. I would not have a problem being a leader in the troop but I think some moms would be less than excited about a man being in charge of their daughter's troop. Such is still very rare.

My daughter ended up being Juliet for all of last year.

Note that during all those four years, I continued to participate with my daughter in many of the ancillary activities to get her extra badges and experiences that were not connected to the troop. We do at least one non-troop GS activity a month.

This year, my daughter has moved schools and has two close friends in a troop that would be perfect. I have been pleading to get the contact information for that troop and no one seems to be willing to respond.

I would be willing to dismiss this experience as atypical if it happened once, or maybe even twice - but this experience has been consistent. Girl Scouts REALLY don't want my daughter. If they did, they would find a way to accept such a dedicated team of father and daughter.

Because they don't, we will be joining Boy Scouts at the earliest opportunity. My daughter is looking forward to participating with her older Boy Scout brother.