Hawkwin

7 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Well, I'm a small town scouter, that scenario never happens.  Everybody knows someone who knows everyone. 

So you can say with confidence that you know in advance as to whether or not an adult might end up being a sexual predator just because you know them socially?

1 minute ago, walk in the woods said:

I have really mixed emotions about the advice to find a DE, scouter from another pack, any warm female body, to solve the issue.  Even if we remove gender from the issue the conversation is basically:

We don't have the leadership to meet the YPT requirements so we're going to bring in a complete stranger from the other side of the council.  Nobody knows him/her but that's ok, they took the online training.

Gotta say, I wouldn't sign my kid up for that solution.

By comparison, if you had three new girls and one of the mom's volunteered to be a YPT ADL, that new mom would be just as much of a stranger to everyone but her own daughter. At least if you get an existing scouter, you should have at least some assumption of prior good behavior. You don't have that at all with a new adult to your unit.

26 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

The Female rule was part of the early adopter program, which all of our attendees were apart of.

Here is the thread where the YPT proposed changes where discussed.

The proposed changes were announced in April. I don't know the official implementation date but I think it was supposed to start when all packs, not just the early adopters, opened their doors to girls. This likely left summer camps in a bit of limbo between the old and the new rules and as such, likely were not required to implement the new rules.

I am pretty sure having female leaders was not a requirement when EAP first rolled out last year. If you have a reference stating otherwise, please share it.

Edit: I think I discovered my confusion. While having female YPT adult leaders was a requirement for the PACK, it was not requirement on the Den level until recently. I don't honestly know how that impacted camps for the summer. I know my daughter went to cub scout day camp and while we did not have our own female YPT den leader at the time, there were plenty of other YPT females in attendance.

4 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

The Female rule was part of the early adopter program, which all of our attendees were apart of.

? I am a Den Leader as part of the EAP and I don't recall that being a requirement. I recall it being made public that it was going to be a requirement sometime in May or there about.

12 hours ago, SarahPeas said:

Hi guys! I need to know of any "Famous" or influential female venture scouts! Anyone have any?

You might have to reach out the either Nationals or various alumni organizations for such information.

25 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

My council is dragging its feet on everything.  We even had girls at Webelos Resident camp this last summer, and ran into some YPT cover issues (no female leadership for some attendees), but still have yet put in a plan for next year.  Its almost like they are waiting for National to just hand them a set of expectations.

Was the rule requiring female YPT leaders in effect by this summer? I feel like it wasn't a requirement at that time but I don't honestly recall.

On a side note, we had 27 NEW Bobcats last night with 17 of them being tigers. The pack has doubled in size from last year and just three of those are girls (from my count), taking us to a total of five.

I have to wonder if this might end up being one of it not the biggest jumps in applicants BSA has ever seen - and of course will get larger still in February when older girls can join.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Misrepresent? The discussion was in the context of personal morality, you moved into the context of state laws. 

Barry

No, I asked you whose morals? Your reply claimed such actions were "possible child abuse."

"Child Abuse" is defined under state (and federal) laws, not under some universally defined and accepted morality standard.

You move the discussion from one of morality to legality by making a legal claim.

So let's backtrack to my original question before you moved the goal posts, whose morals?

15 hours ago, ParkMan said:

For what it's worth.

Our troop is currently at 85 scouts. We have no bylaws and very few process documents.  Really all that we do that is different is that our adults team is more structured than a smaller troop.  For example - we have a leader who just schedules boards of review.  He knows which boys are probably going to need one each week and can work with the parents to have enough representation.  We don't have shenanigans at our BOR because the leader who organizes them knows his stuff.  We don't have problems getting a board together because our adults know they'll be needed.  We have enough boards that we adults get lots of experience.  Similarly, we have an Life to Eagle Advisor.  He knows every Scout from Star on well.  He can talk with them about applications, projects, Eagle boards, etc.  I like it because it gives up the opportunity to really focus on "going deep" in the different roles.  Adults wear fewer hats which also leads to less burned out adults too. 

I'll grant that one downside to our size is that the Scoutmaster himself is less available to each Scout.

I like that idea. I might add that to the recommendation.

I learned at a recent sporting event that another scout parent has the same complaint as I. The SM made the parent drive four hours (two hours each way) to take their scout on a Friday night to a camp out so that the scout can get their SMC done in time for the BOR/COH. The scout completed the SMC and then turned around and went home immediately after. The scout had sport tourneys all weekend so was not available to attend the camp out. I could see the pain on the face of the parents as they shared their story with me. No one should have to jump through such hoops for a SMC.

18 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Ah! Government morality as the humanistic guideline. I'm not sure even atheist would agree. 

Barry

So when you misrepresent my reply, what is your desired goal? To get me to respond in kind or simply stop responding?

You win. Moving on.

47 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Even atheist say they are moral. I'm talking about contributing to possible child abuse, so where does that fit in to your question?

Barry

What is the child abuse? Clearly each state has laws covering such. Does your state consider such actions child abuse? Are you suggesting that BSA create its own rules and definitions regarding child abuse that extend beyond what each state already does? Again, whose morals would establish those extra-judicial rules? Not only that, how expensive would it be to not only create those rules but then defend them against legal challenges. Are you willing to pay another $50 a year to cover those new legal fees?

Again, if a CO doesn't like something about an applicant, let that CO deal with it at their level. It seems foolish beyond even worthy consideration to ask BSA to adopt a national policy that would define child abuse more extreme than what each state does. 

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, yes, all very practical, but is it moral? 

Whose morals? Since we are a religious, but non-denominational organization, whose morals would we dictate to our units?

Seems like something best left to the CO and not to BSA National.

1 hour ago, gblotter said:

 I don't remember you mentioning the size of your troop. We have a smaller troop of 30 Scouts which makes flexible scheduling easier. I know of several mega troops (130+ Scouts) in our area. I have no doubt they run high-quality Scouting programs, but I can't imagine operating in that kind of environment. So much personal attention would be lost, and you end up with subcommittees generating long, legalistic policy documents like the one you describe. Different strokes for different folks, but I'd be finding a new - and possibly smaller - troop (as I've said before).

I love that quote. What a contrast to the SM for @Hawkwin

High double digits. My guess is between 70-80 currently. Our Scoutlander page lists 87 but I doubt all of them are active.

And I appreciate your advice on finding a smaller troop. Certainly it would lead to a very different experience - but I think there is a lesson here for my scout in that demonstrating my willingness to fix things vs simply taking the easier, and perhaps more pleasant solution, he might learn that strife and struggle are often necessary components of growth and success and even perhaps that there is value in even in struggle that ultimately results in failure. Moving to another troop will always be an option that can be explored in the future but for now, we have not exhausted our options or our efforts to make what we currently have better.

Feels like an allegory for all of BSA.

1 hour ago, Thunderbird said:

@Hawkwin  Some more thoughts:  your troop's policies are very long and detailed, and some of the policies are out of date already (for example: the BSA registration fee is now $33 per person).  Instead of having detailed policies like this, it would probably be better to just refer to the source documents (Guide to Safe Scouting, Boy Scout Handbook, Guide to Advancement, Guide to Awards and Insignia, uniform inspection sheets (currently more up to date than the 2015 Guide to Awards and Insignia), etc.)  This way, the troop's policies don't have to be edited every time something changes.  In addition, the longer something like this is (troop policies), the less likely people will read it.

Good luck!

Great catch on the fee. We are of like minds on this. Why have a redundant document that would necessarily need to be updated every single time a half dozen or more other documents change.

Great feedback.

Sent my recommendations to the subcommittee last night. We are scheduled to meet on October 7th. I doubt I will have any feedback prior but will share any updates that may come my way before that meeting.

16 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

 

Taken together, I think that your troop's policy that "Only registered adult Troop leaders may sign the requirements in the BSA Scout Handbook" is limiting your Scoutmaster's authority to determine who may test and sign off on the rank requirements.

 

 

Thank you; and agreed. My son had month's worth of camping and service projects not entered or signed off in his book before I took it upon myself to research what was missing and then signed them myself (under the assumption that "adult" meant me). No one has questioned those signatures (and why would they if they never helped him get them signed off in the first place).

More good feedback for our committee.

5 minutes ago, ianwilkins said:

 

That's going to be a pretty unpleasant job, telling the girls that there is no girls pack or mixed pack with you, and they'd need to go find one somewhere else. Pretty unfair of the rep to do that to you.

 

Perhaps a better solution would be to determine in advance what packs, if any, in the area will accept girls then work with that pack to accept them. I would even invite them to show up and be present at the round up. Explain to the parents and apologize for any confusion caused by the District Rep and enthusiastically welcome those girls into scouting in the other pack.

4 minutes ago, LVAllen said:

Here you go:

 

Thanks. So in other words, we could simply state either that a scout may be removed per the GtoA, or not have a section on this at all since it is largely redundant.

Quote

a.  Only registered adult Troop leaders may sign the requirements in the BSA Scout Handbook.

Camping and service requirements in the handbook state, "Scoutmaster or adult signature." Is Adult synonymous with troop leader or can really any adult sign off on camping or service?

Removal from elected or appointed office:

Quote

1.1     The Scoutmaster reserves the right to remove a Scout from elected or appointed office after two counseling sessions when said Scout is not performing the requirements of that position.

Is that supported somewhere? I can't find anything that supports that in the GtoA.

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Yep, and it supports my deepest concerns of inexperienced adults leading the program. I can't see it going any direction other than Advancement based Eagle Mill camping programs. 

Barry

As I have come to learn, "experienced" scouters can come with their own bad habits and baggage.

While you can see it only going one way, I have the utmost hope, and even expectation, that this is a golden opportunity to train the biggest generation of new scouters we have ever seen. Even if there is some failure in that process, some of the greatest scouters we have ever had will be joining our ranks in the next 24 months. I can't see it going any other way.

Would anyone be willing to share the text of their troop policy? Instead of spending time trying amend our bureaucracy, it would be easier to simply toss it and start over. Since the new SM is on my subcommittee, I see this as a good opportunity to guide them in a better direction.

4 hours ago, malraux said:

Worth saying that my impression was that @Hawkwin post was primarily copying the existing troop document and posting what changes he wanted to it. That is, he's not responsible for that mess, the troop is.

Correct. The existing document is not my creation. I was simply trying to get changes to the color-coded sections. I am open to any recommendations to simply or scrap the entire thing.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

Oh. Then maybe the job of this subcommittee is to find out which policies are/are not being followed, and which ones are. For example, maybe it was the boys who wanted monthly inspections to keep the adults from wasting meetings with excessive announcements. But, I suspect that actually they are saddled with a goal that's nearly impossible to meet.* This thing needs more strikethrough than insertion.

For example, under SMCs. Have: Our SM and assistants will arrange conferences with scouts promptly in accordance with the BSA Guide to Advancement.

Actually, I would not have it under "Advancement", it would be under a category "Delivering the promise of scouting."

Then there would be another category "Cashing in on the promise of scouting." It would have items like:

• Scouts will appear in uniform as described in the Boy Scout Handbook when possible. When not possible, scouts will present themselves neatly dressed in apparel suitable for the activity according to Boy Scout Handbook, Field Book, and Guide to Safe Scouting.
• The SPL may devote meeting time to uniform inspection using standards in the Boy Scout Handbook, BSA Uniform Inspection Sheet, and BSA Insignia Guide. The Librarian will ensure that inspection sheets and insignia guides are the are at the ready for the SPL, and may re-stock the library using troop funds as necessary.

And so on.

*Just my experience: when boys in their late teens find themselves in what they think are catch 22's, they will quit rather than doing the hard work of resolving the underlying issue.

Great stuff! Keep it coming!

10 hours ago, MattR said:

Rather, I'd suggest writing a document that just describes how things work. Don't call it policy. Explain how the scout or a parent can get things clarified. As long as the SM and committee treat all the scouts the same and there are no surprises then nobody will complain. My troop has been around for 20 years and we have few policies. We do have a document that describes how things are done.

To me it sounds like the real problem here is a lack of trust.

Great stuff! Thank you. We meet in a couple of weeks and I will paraphrase your points. I agree. As a parent I had not read this entire document prior to this event and I am sure none of the scouts are familiar with it.

12 hours ago, Buggie said:

I didn't get all the way through it because one of the things that struck me was the uniform requirements. BORs can't make such a requirement above what BSA requires. A scout shows up to the best of their ability. Some scouts can't afford the full uniform. We had a scout lose everything in a fire. While he did get a shirt provided as a gift that was the best he could do. And i know in my case we couldn't keep my son in anything long as kept growing out of everything. A shirt was the best we could do.

Thanks! Will add commentary to that point.