swilliams

Reviving this old thread because this issue is still ongoing.  Not only are things not better, they're worse.  I've tried to stay out of it, as I'm not SM.  The only reason I was (am) involved at all is because my son is friendly with this group, despite being a year younger, and I was one of two Troop leaders who hiked the 70 miles for Hiking MB with this group.  As a result, their parents have involved me, even as I've referred them to the SM.

The SM spoke to both sets of parents, and we thought things were being settled.  Fast forward to early February.  We found out that Scout One filed a HIB (harassment, intimidation, bullying) report with the school at the beginning of this whole mess, and because they had both used school email in their exchanges, the school found Scout Two guilty of the offense.  In February, Scout Two then filed a HIB report against Scout One, but said that the offense occurred during a scout meeting.  The school refused to get involved, as this was outside of school and not on school grounds.  However...

Although nothing is being done by the school, the Troop is being called out.  As a group, we're skeptical of the second charge; leadership has been watching the two very closely.  The SM has lost all patience with the issue.  The last action was that the Committee decided that for the next few meetings we would ask Scout Two's father or mother to be present.  He had a SM Conference where he told the SM that everything was fine, and repeated the same to the Committee members on his BOR.  Well, I know it's not because he left the Troop Meeting immediately after the SM Conference, ostensibly for a Dr. appointment, and he has been a no-show at the last two outings/meetings.  Now a third scout has quit the Troop over this ongoing issue. 

What the heck do we do?  I won't take any further steps other than ask for advice here and pass it along.  This isn't my Troop to lead, but I don't want to see other scouts quit, or have to deal with this for the next three years until these boys age out.  Is there a diplomatic way to encourage Scout Two to join the other Troop in town?  Is that a terrible thing to even consider?

21 hours ago, yknot said:

That is what I have been trying to figure out. To my recollection, I'd already seen estimates that we'd be around 1.2 million before Covid hit; I was expecting a lower number after Covid. If this is December 2020, I don't think it would capture that.  I don't know if we have to wait until next year to find out. If there was an even more substantial hit than this, though, I expect we might hear more in the months to come because that would certainly affect operating cash flow for BSA and it might come up in the bankruptcy case. 

We didn't lose any scouts due to Covid, but it absolutely impacted our ability to bring in new scouts.  We had one scout drop due to an ongoing fight between two scouts in our Troop (mentioned in another thread, which I might go revive), but another, who had dropped the previous year, decided to sign up again this year in the hopes that we're headed to summer camp.

Our Venture Crew numbers are down slightly.  We're going on our fifth year, so the girls (all-girl crew) who started the Crew and were super-involved have graduated.  Many are away at university, but even those who are remote learning are too busy and didn't renew.  It's great they have the option to stay in until age 21, but the reality is that they don't.  We have a decent number of sophmores, and a handful of freshmen, but not in the same numbers as the original group who helped get this Crew off the ground.

One thing we've started doing - and by 'we' I mean both Troops in our town (same CO), as well as the girls' Troop and the Crew (same CO in a different town) - is to utilize social media more.  We're making more of an effort to take pictures to post on community forums and to write articles for local news.  We'll see if it helps at all this year.

On 3/4/2021 at 11:08 PM, Eagle1993 said:

Well, it should be easier to get our desired Treks at Philmont going forward.... assuming we still own it. 

I debated whether to laugh at this, or not.  

So far, our Council says summer camp is a go.  I sure hope so.  Getting the units active again will be SO important.

On 3/3/2021 at 9:40 PM, qwazse said:

File under: Why bean-counting of service hours should be stricken from all rank advancement requirements.

I upvoted this yesterday, but came back to it to add a comment. I agree - mostly. Service can be evaluated as part of Scout Spirit, and could be folded into the SM Conference.

At the same time, having specifics laid out helps in a couple ways. Some SMs may not be comfortable telling a scout he doesn’t think they have earned their next rank due to something that would be subjective.  What constitutes enough service?

It also gives a scout a concrete goal that he/she can plan for. Particularly helpful as they get older and may have a lot of obligations pulling them different directions. 

Side note: Our Troop gives bronze, silver, and gold challenge coins for service.  Many of our scouts earn the bronze level, 50 hours, by the time they age out. They don’t do it for the coins, but it’s a nice recognition.

Silver is 75; gold is 100.

A funny anecdote: we've been buried in snow here in NJ for a while.  We still can't meet indoors, so we'd planned on holding our latest COH at an outdoor amphitheater.  A few days before the COH, with the area still buried in snow, the SM called on the scouts to come help shovel the snow away from the benches and stage, and clear a couple paths to get into the area.

A bunch of scouts showed up and did the clearing.  The amphitheater is next to a nature museum, and the director of some of the children's programs there, when she found the area cleared, told our SM that with the area cleared, the museum could resume outdoor classes that had been halted because the area was inaccessible.  So... after the fact, he gave two hours of not-so-easy-to-get conservation hours to the scouts that showed.

Taught a lesson to a couple who needed the conservation hours, but couldn't be bothered to show up for what they thought was non-service for our own Troop.  🤣

16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

BSA Statement ... didn't see it here yet, but there have been a lot of posts.

https://scoutingwire.org/an-important-milestone-in-the-bsas-chapter-11-case/

 

 

• A national BSA contribution to the Trust that includes a significant portion of national BSA’s unrestricted, non-core assets that are not subject to liens of its secured lender. 

• A loan from the National Boy Scouts of America Foundation to the BSA to provide the BSA with sufficient working capital following emergence from bankruptcy. 

• A contribution of at least $300 million from local councils to the Trust. 

I'm not sure what I was expecting to see from that statement, but am left struggling for words.  No wonder BSA has gotten such a negative reaction, and it isn't just because of the dollar amount.  I can't write persuasively to save my life, so should probably keep my mouth shut, but this comes across as something slapped together by the same people who write the captions for those cheesy office posters about 'Teamwork!' or the like.

As someone whose entire family is involved in scouts, the quoted part above makes me more than a little upset.  I realize BSA wants to preserve assets so it can continue offering scouting, but (to use a phrase from my kids) Duuuude...

National will contribute its "non-core assets", and will get a loan, but then will ask councils to give up their core assets?  As much as my kids are (were?) looking forward to going to Philmont, they are much more concerned that our council's wilderness camp will no longer be an option.  They're already devastated that it was closed last summer due to Covid.  They love that mosquito-infested, bear-prowling, loon-calling, scout-cooking place.

Our Troop's Eagle COH's don't actually have much to do with the Troop, other than the scouts are encouraged to attend and the Eagle scouts will ask for participants.  It's typically a group of parents who do the organizing and planning, usually once there are three or more Eagle scouts to combine a ceremony for.  

Without knowing your relationship with the SM, I'll add my two cents on the issue of whether service gets awarded/approved for this by the SM.  I'm also our Troop's Advancement Chair, and don't always agree 100% with the SM's decisions as they pertain to advancement.  Unless I felt like it was something egregious, I wouldn't bring it up formally at a Committee before talking it out with the SM.  If you already have and it sounds like that might be the case, rather than fight the awarding of service hours (which, btw, would not be given by our Troop in this case), try approaching the issue of what types of service should be counted going forward.  

I would say something like, 'Can we have a quick talk/meeting to discuss service projects going forward? It would be good to have clear-cut guidelines, both for me and for the scouts.  I don't want to send contradictory messages if a scout asks for his progress record or what he still needs for his next rank in terms of service hours.'  Then it's not about this one event.

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

CENTURY AND HARTFORD’S STATEMENT REGARDINGTHE RECENTLY-FILED PLAN OF REORGANIZATION AND PENDING RULE 2004 MOTIONS [DKT. NOS. 1972, 1974]

The plan of reorganization filed by the Debtors on March 1, 2021, has not garnered the support of any significant constituency in this case. To the contrary, it has already been met by intense opposition, including from the Tort Claimants’ Committee.

...The violent reaction of claimants’ counsel to the newly-filed plan shows that progress cannot occur without an investigation into the claims filed in this case. Otherwise, we fear that one of two things will occur: Either the plaintiffs’ lawyers will run roughshod over the Debtors, resulting in a proposed plan and trust distribution procedures designed to allow tens of thousands of invalid claims, which will leave the insurers with no choice but to contest confirmation, or, in Mr. Kosnoff’s words, this case will head toward liquidation.

  The discovery into the claims that Century and Hartford have requested is necessary for this case to avoid one of those fates. Absent that discovery, the mediation alone is not on a path to produce consensus. The plan and disclosure statement that the Debtors recently filed not only has generated no support, but it was not the product of meaningful negotiations. To the contrary, the first time the insurers saw the current plan and the proposed disclosure statement was on March 1, when the Debtors filed those documents. The time-sensitive discovery the insurers seek will shed light on the explosion in claims and, by allowing all parties to uncover the basic facts, hopefully pave the way toward building a semblance of consensus.

So that sounds like a 'no' to my question.  Having followed a couple court cases on other issues (as best I can without any real legal knowledge), I'm aware that court proceedings are never quick.  Are there other issues standing in the way of the insurer's motion being denied or granted?

6 hours ago, ThenNow said:

That is the case here. The link below will take you to the insurers' Rule 2004 Discovery Motion. You can scroll to page 7 on the docket file, page 1 of the motion, and begin reading from there. Of course, this is what the insurers "allege" and the respondent groups deny many elements, especially the negative characterization. Several great news stories were written related to this internal battle, as well. 

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/870566_1975.pdf

I haven't read through this entire thread.  Has the motion in the link been ruled on?

55 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you. Sincerely.

I do not want to discount any valid claims from others like me, but I deeply question the validity of that many claims flooding in, especially knowing how they were solicited. Having read the discovery motions, the banter and blather from the so-called Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice (which name is so presumptuous and pretentious it makes me ill) and he who shall not be named, I think the number will go down if the judge allows the vehicle to be inspected with the sniffer dogs.

I don't know what the number should be. Ultimately, it will be larger than the BSA and LC portion, since the insurers know they have to contribute to put this to bed and head for the hills, never to write another BSA policy. At this stage, it was simply a matter of what they projected when they made an initial offer, both in the substance of the offer and the manner in which they conveyed it. Neither seemed appropriate to the gravity of the moment, the stage of the case or the amount of time spent in asset review and negotiations.

I think many of us have similar questions about the number of claims, but are going to be very cautious about expressing them.  The last thing anyone needs is a bunch of current scouters seeming to be shrugging away or minimizing the damage that was done.

Yeah, that's what BSA's offer seems to do, but it doesn't mean those of us on the ground shouldn't be more aware.

Our Troop is considering climbing/rappelling along the Shawangunk Mountain range.  So far, the only "real" campground we've found is run by the Alpine Club, and the charge is $38 per site (for non-members), with a maximum of 4 people per site.  That would put the cost for the camping at a minimum of $190, if we have a typical turnout.  While we've paid fees like this in the past for camping, this trip would include a guided climbing lesson, which is already a fairly large expense compared to our usual campouts. 

Is anyone here familiar with that area?  Are there alternate places to camp?  The nearest council-owned camp isn't all that close (Tri-Mountain Council).  I put a call in to them anyway, and am waiting to hear back as to whether they are allowing group camping, but haven't heard back yet.

On 2/19/2021 at 12:26 AM, MattR said:

Maybe someone should ask the council what they mean by "family camp." I suspect it means, due to covid, families are eating and tenting on their own. So if you're going to camp then eat and tent by families. It makes sense to me. It is also not requiring an activity.

This is what we've been doing.  Carpooling is discouraged and our state doesn't want the cooking equipment shared, so it ends up being 'camp with your family in an area where there may be other families with scouts in your Troop'.   Not a fan, even though I love camping and have been to a significant number of trips pre-Covid as an adult leader, but...  if that's what it is for now, so be it.

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Not everyone who does not want the vaccine is a denier. A lot of folks in the medical field have reservations about the vaccines. One of them stated that they had serious questions about one company's study methodology after reading a peer reviewed  medical journal article on the vaccine. Others have questions about the efficacy of the vaccine, and whether it will really make a difference or not based upon their reading of the ongoing research of the virus. I have read of hospitals offer bonuses in the form of cash and extra days off as an incentive for their staff to get the vaccine.

 

Trust me they know it's real. They know they have to be cautious. But they have legitimate concerns because these vaccine have been fast tracked. They do not know what long term effects the vaccines will have.

There are also those of us who have been infected already, and are waiting to see what observation and studies say about extended immunity, and who want to see if any longer-term effects start to show up.  At this point, having already had Covid, I have no intention of getting the vaccine.  That may change; it may not.

For full disclosure, I have a relative who was vaccine-injured.  This doesn't mean my family and I are anti-vaxx, or deniers, or any other delightful names we've been called.  My children are all vaccinated with the exception of not having been given the rotavirus or HPV vaccines.  But we're cautious, and tend to base decisions on likely effects of both illness and vaccine, efficacy, and other related issues.  At this point, it's moot for my kids, as they are 16, 14 and almost 13 (a few more days).  But I would like to kindly suggest those out there, as passionate as you may be,  to please temper the urge to call those who choose NOT to take the vaccine 'deniers' or 'anti-vaxxers'.

This is slightly off-topic, but when I looked over the requirements for this award, I was expecting to see Environmental Science or Sustainability listed, rather than Public Health.  Has public health always been under the purview of the EPA?

One of our committee members forwarded this to our group today, and I've forwarded it to our scouts.  There is something I found odd, though.  It's the EPA - the Environmental Protection Agency - yet as I scrolled through the list of MBs I kept expecting to see Environmental Science or Sustainability in there.  To me, that makes more sense than Public Health, even as I can see why we would want scouts to be taking that particular MB right now.

On 1/25/2021 at 12:48 PM, fred8033 said:

I'm strongly a first name person, scout or adult.  It's about reducing barriers to communication.  I want the scouts relaxed and willing to discuss challenges.

I don't view this as teaching courtesy or manners.  I see that taught in a 1000% small lessons that we should be having throughout scouting. 

Set expectations to be consistent.  If you expect formal from the scouts, then also be formal to the scout.   Anything else sounds like a power trip.   

 

As a kid, I was always reluctant to address an adult by their first name.  It just seemed wrong, somehow.  So I found myself not addressing them at all, or finding awkward ways of getting their attention if I had to say something.

In our new community, there is a strong preference for calling adults Mr, Ms, or Mrs.  It felt weird to be addressed as Mrs. W at first, but it didn't take long to realize how normal it was for the kids to do so, and to see that it was easy for them.  It was nice to see how readily they approach you when there is a somewhat defined way of addressing adults.  As a coach, though, the commissioner for track and cross-country introduced us as Coach First-Name.  Then THAT seemed odd to me, lol.  It seems fine with the kids, though.  I've even had them call out to me in the grocery store.  So whatever is preferred, it seems like it's good for the kids if whatever it is, is consistent for all.

On 1/24/2021 at 12:18 PM, yknot said:

Adult to adult --- First name 

Scout to adult -- Mr./Mrs./Ms. No professional honorifics

Adult giving instructions and referencing another adult -- Mr./Mrs./Ms.

I don't like it when kids address adults without a courtesy title, but that might be more a reflection of our demographics. Some of the kids around here could use reminders about basic manners and social courtesies, especially in formal communications. 

Agree, but there are a couple exceptions for us that come to mind.  One of our merit badge counselors is an Army Colonel, though retired.  I would not refer to him as Mr. _____, only Col. _____

The other is our Scoutmaster.  Once in a while I slip up and say Mr. T, but usually try to address him, when talking to scouts as Scoutmaster T.

On 1/22/2021 at 3:29 PM, Jameson76 said:

We ran our own summer camp and had monthly outings AUG through NOV.  Maybe average of 24 Scouts and 6 leaders per outing.  Did aquatics, kayaking, backpacking, and AOL visit.  We did have our annual 3 day Winter trip last weekend, to the swamp, visit to a National Seashore Island, and some other side trips.  We have been meeting outside since August, but we always met outside so no difference.  Been some challenge due to CO (church) being closed at times so went to park across the street.  They close at dark, so winter is iffy.

We have picked up some additional High School aged Scouts.  Basically we are the only group active.  The challenge may be the Cub packs and their activities.  We have tried to support but they have not been meeting and we have no idea how many we may get from crossover.

It is a struggle to keep things moving forward.

My husband and I offered our place in PA to host a Troop summer camp, but it was voted down by our Committee.  They were concerned about the ability to contain the virus.  Objections included the difficulty of sanitizing equipment, transportation (no carpooling), tenting arrangements, whether the scouts needed to and/or were able to quarantine, etc.

I was sad, to say the least.  We had a spot set up for making outdoor showers and were going to contribute a portable water heater, I had found a local place that would have donated lumber for picnic benches, had spoken to a local place that boards horses and gives summer lessons about having scouts...

Oh well.  I think it was also early enough in the timeline that we (as a Troop and committee) didn't have a real sense of urgency or a clear enough idea of just how long these restrictions were going to last.  If our summer camps don't open this year, I'm going to push very, very hard to make the Troop camp work this year.  One key 'no' voter has a son who will be aging out in the next two months, and I will be surprised if he sticks around afterward - seems to already have one foot out the door.

We've not been as active as my sons would have liked.  We're meeting outdoors for an hour, once a week, but trips have been non-existent outside of one October trip out to PA.  I wish we could do more, but the real issue for my boys right now is summer camp. 

My older one outgrew his scout shirt, and as we were taking patches off to transfer them to the new shirt, he suddenly realized that he was going to be missing his 'full circle'.  There's a round Sabattis Camp patch in the middle, with rockers for each year surrounding it.  Due to the camp closure las summer, he'll be missing 2020, and will only have five of six rockers unless he goes back as an adult.

Anyway, he doesn't care too much about the patches, outside of the cool factor of having the circle complete, but he DOES care enormously about camp.  He's already pessimistic about the prospects, sad about how few trips we've taken and will occasionally say "scouting is dead".  

The fight happened outside of scouting.  Online gaming.  Ugh.  One accused the other of cheating, and it was all downhill afterward, allegedly with a bunch of name-calling and 'your mother' comments thrown in as well.  That seems pretty typical and straight-up to me (being one of eight kids in my family and having four of my own, lol).

My worry is that this has morphed into bullying in the scout world.  Hope the SM gets back to one of us soon.

Here to pick your brains while I wait for our Scoutmaster to be available.  I did a quick search, but (surprisingly, or not) there are a LOT of topics that contain the words 'scout' and 'conflict'.

I was encouraging one of our scouts to go on our camping trip coming up this weekend.  He's an older scout (age 15, joined about 18 months ago) who is still not First Class.  He wants to advance, so this would finally have given him some of the opportunities we've been missing during Covid times to complete some camping-related requirements.  He had one excuse after the next, and it came to light (after I got a text from his mom) that he'd gotten into a fight with another scout.

Details that might be pertinent. It wasn't a physical fight. I haven't had a chance to speak to the Scoutmaster.  The boy's mom emailed the SM and myself this morning, but he has not answered the email yet.  The scout doesn't want to come to tonight's meeting, either.  I did NOT bring this up with either scout or the other boy's parents: this is just a what-would-you-do question.  I only have one side of the story, but am being told the other boy has been ostracizing/bullying the first about various things such as his 2nd Class rank.

What a strange image, right?  Who came up with this idea during the plague?  Someone sadistic, I’m sure. “Let’s scare the plague out of the patient.”  😂

These went over so well that I have to buy more fabric and do another batch, and the SM said he “sees a t-shirt in our future”.

Wasn’t quite sure where to put this, but wanted to share something I made to celebrate our first in-person Troop meeting since the first of March. 

Plague Doctor neckerchief. 😆

1 hour ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Tracing is impossible when people are gathering in large numbers at protests.

Schools reopening in the EU has not resulted in an increase in Covid cases, and that's indoors where it's more likely to spread, unlike Philmont.

 

I'll add that a lot of the EU members have also opened borders with neighboring countries as well (beginning May 15th), and the numbers of new daily cases in the EU is still trending downward.

We have twelve scouts who didn't sign up for Philmont this year, as they are 13 and newly-turned 14 year olds.  Now that this year is canceled, the troop is giving the same scouts who were signed up for this year first dibs at going next year.  (If we have a slot - there are 14 crews wanting 11 spots in our council.)  Now these younger scouts will have two years to wait before they can go.  With the loss of cash flow from this year, the bankruptcy and the litigation, I'm feeling pessimistic about their chances to ever experience Philmont.

On 6/4/2020 at 8:50 AM, karunamom3 said:

I spoke with the council camping director yesterday and yes it seems the new rule of leaders not splitting weeks is proving a hardship for some units. It is tough, but we are figuring it out.

Our scouts are excited to get back to basics and spend more time together as a unit instead of splitting off in every which way. (Units stay together in a 'pod' the whole week). Some are sad there will be no completed MBs, but at the same time are looking forward to an array of MBs being worked on. With blue cards handy and a list from camp/council detailing what skills go towards which MBs. For sure none of our scouts thought to do metalworking MB, but are now excited that they will be working with the camps forge toward metalworking, for example. Often how scouts feel depends on how the adults or SPL present the activity.

I dont think any of our parents would bring their kids out yet even if council said its ok. I believe nothing related to children's activities has been approved by the governor (NJ) yet. Day cares can open on the 8th and I believe sports/activities on the 22nd.

Kind of confused... if the parents wouldn't bring their kids out, how are they okay with sending them to camp?  The virus isn't going to disappear in four more weeks.  Anyway, I'm still not convinced overnight camps are going to be open.  Murphy seems to be very hesitant to open things up.  I had hoped he'd have addressed outdoor pools by now.

I think half our parents, at a minimum, are ready to let their kids get together.  Recently, six scouts in our troop just happened to be doing their 15 mile hike in the same location at the same time.  (Something tells me they might coincidentally find themselves in the same location for their 20 mile.)  Then a seventh scout found out about it and has asked my son if our 'family' might be doing a shorter hike at some point in the next week.  His 'family' might just happen to be doing the same thing.

On 6/4/2020 at 9:28 AM, MattR said:

So so close! I like the idea of a pod deciding what they want to do together. How about, rather than an adult, pick one scout as the pod leader. Oh! And the scouts could vote on their pod leader. And if the scout struggles there could be a senior pod leader that could help him out. As for adults, maybe just a couple in camp would be needed for guidance. They could be called the pod master and assistant pod master.

Sarcasm aside, using the patrol method at summer camp could solve a lot of problems and be a lot of fun.

This is exactly the patrol method. I think it's how all summer camps should run.

🤣  This sounds very alien/Star Trek-y, lol.