swilliams

Thank you all.  We have our COH tonight, but will put the advice to work next Tuesday!

I've worked with youth for ages: besides scouting, as a substitute teacher and a cross-country/track coach.  Maybe it's just me getting old (Get off my lawn!), but the last two new batches of scouts seem to have more behavior issues than before.  We've had issues with scouts not listening to the older scouts, talking back to them, refusing to do as asked, etc.  At one point last year they vandalized a school bathroom and almost got us kicked out.  Nothing permanent, but spitting on the mirrors, unrolling all the toilet paper, etc.  It's gotten to the point where our older scouts are beginning to avoid coming to Troop meetings.  

I'm not involved in weekly meetings anymore, so this is coming from my husband, who became an ASM last year.  In reading BP's words that were posted in another thread about number, I'm wondering if we should look at restructuring how meetings are run, specifically breaking out groups.  Any other suggestions as to how to help keep younger scouts in line?  While still having fun.

Not a summer camp, but maybe relevant.  My daughter and I just got back from a short backpacking trip on the AT.  We met some scouts from Troop 3 in Easton, PA.  Four scouts, two leaders.  When we did a similar trip last year around 4th of July, we had come across a group of Jewish "scouts" (not Boy Scouts, but some similar program) - 37 of them!!  

I've noticed more people out and about in the woods ever since Covid, so I think interest in the outdoors is UP, but it's not necessarily translating over to Scouting.

On a complete side note: hiking around Crater Lake near Walpack, NJ (side trip off the AT), my daughter and I were shocked when we turned a corner and saw a naked man striding toward us.  Nothing on but some hiking boots and a bandana.  Apparently there is a "Naked Hiking Day". 😬

5 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Troop , camp, WB, IOLS bugler....   Bugling MBC.  I have  heard , okayed many a brass instrument. The embrouchure from trombone to bugle is easy.  I did it.  

I am called to offer the BMB many times, sometimes some distance Away.  I am no longer amazed at the attitude of some Scouts (or their parents?) about "doing" a MB.  I once had two brothers arrive with two "cavalry" bugles (the small , one loop bugle) still in the plastic wrap. Had they even tried to make a noise with them? no.  We played with these for an hour, I got them to make noise, explained and demonstrated with my horn. These were perhaps the wrong instrument for Bugling MB, but it i spossible for the practiced lip, not apparent THIS time....  Eventually sent them off with all my contact info,  they never called back..

Many times, Scouts will show up with a cornet or trumpet from the school band, but can't do the five or six notes on the Bugle scale. . How do they play in the band?  Did they have any lessons? Chagrin abounds.....    I sometimes think this is the result of the "Show Up And Pass " expectations....

AND THEN....  a Scout will show up, and they are the next Wynton Marsalis.   Or , as with one Scout , and his attentive dad in the background,  BY ZOOM (!!), that came to me four times, improving greatly each time, and I was proud to sign, scan, and email his card to him....

Keep on keeping on.   What's that old joke about "How do you get to Carnegie Hall" ? 

Thanks again for your help when my son was working on this.  (And for the nickname Bugleson, lol.)  He was a trombone player who was able to get many of the notes on trumpet right away.  It did take Bugleson six months to do this MB.  The high G took a LOT of practice, as did the low C.  His MBC asked him to play an actual bugle (but didn't require it), so we ended up purchasing a used trumpet for practice, then borrowing a bugle for a couple weeks to finish up.   We met with the MBC a total of three times before he was satisfied and signed off.

I made Bugleson play 'To the Colors' at a camporee, and he was Troop Bugler for a six-month period, where he would start the meetings.  Sadly, he never played again after that.  All that work...

Younger son plays baritone for concert band and marching band.  It would be fun to have him try the calls, just to see 1) his range and 2) what the calls sound like on the low brass.  I might go start pestering him right now.

17 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

You could have the older Scout serve as a JASM to guide the younger scout as the SPL for camp.  Then the leaders in camp will never have to get out of their chair to deal with anything

I like this solution.  As a side note, our troop has several ASPL positions: logistics (planning for camping trips), advancement, service and program (take over for SPL when unavailable and support SPL with weekly meetings).  

On 5/8/2023 at 4:59 PM, fred8033 said:

Saw this in our council too.  Every non-profit is fundraising so much and scouting is not the darling child anymore.  Maybe 20 years from now, scouting will find it's roots and do better again.  Until then, council fees are in vogue.

IMHO, the real issue is the market does not support big council staffs anymore.  Like camera film development and fax machine sales, the market has shifted.  Time for the councils to re-think their business models.  National too.  The real question is does the individual scout get value from the $75 national and $100+ council fees which their own units are staffed by volunteers and the camp fees are separate.  

For example, maybe scouting could partner with other organizations on the annual background checks, incident reporting and youth protection.  I've had multiple years where I had three or four or five background checks run.  I always think about the wasted cost.  

I'm sure there are many, many ways to restructure the administration.

That last part would probably be a rather large savings, as so many organizations require background checks now.  For myself, I've been background checked three times in the past two years - USATF, as a substitute teacher, and for a real estate license.

4 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Has he told the coach he isn’t interested in any coaching, but here is my proposal, please process? 

I think this is how he will try to proceed. He doesn’t share his parent’s inclination to fight this kind of thing, and I can’t blame him. He just wants to get it done and see his work translated into a finished series of trails. (Un-ironically, the ‘just get it done’ is what made him not want to use the Advisor in the first place.)

As of an hour ago, our former committee chair has asked to become an Eagle Advisor for the Troop, so that if our District is dead-set on forcing scouts down this road, at least they have a choice in Advisors. 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Call the District Advancement Chair (DAC) to discuss this.

Requiring and Eagle Project Coach is adding requirements to the process, which is strictly forbidden.

When you talk with the DAC, ask if the District has someone who will review his paperwork as Eagle Project Coach.  Tactfully, if necessary, explain why your son does not wish to use the existing unit coach.  The District or Council may have someone who is acceptable to work with.

A phone call may clear this up.

If the DAC is adamant your Scout use the coach he does not wish to, then have your Scout submit the proposal, as is.  You follow up with a note saying you counseled your Scout on the importance of a coach, but he has declined to use one (with excerpted verbiage from the GTA).  If it comes back from District denied, then immediately start an appeal process.

There is no Eagle Project Coach signature block on the Proposal Approval page!

How old is your Scout?

He will be 17 in just over a month.

I just spoke to someone who is still on our Troop Committee, but is also on the list of Eagle Coaches who can be assigned by the district.  He reiterated that my son MUST work with the Unit Eagle Advisor, and told me that my son's proposal would most likely be rejected by the District if it didn't come from the Advisor.  I am beyond angry.  What are we teaching scouts with this?  My solution might just be to have him join a Troop in the next town over, which is in a different District that does not require this.  

I may decide to fight it later, but really don't have the bandwidth to start a war, particularly when I have a 15 year old who will still need to go through the process.  I'm worn down, discouraged, angry...  I can only imagine what my kid is feeling.  

There seems to be this strange idea among too many scout leaders that this is "real life" and will toughen the kid up.  I say it only teaches them that it's okay for them to be unresponsive and dismissive.  We should be leading by example, imho.

20 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

The scout is turning it in to the designated district person. Turn it in and move on. 
 

Or you can choose to make a big deal out of it. Your choice. 

Maybe I'm not being clear enough.  He knows he has to have the proposal approved by the designated district or council person.  He has no issue with that.  But in order to get it to that person for their approval, the district is saying he has to use an Eagle Coach and have the Coach turn the proposal over to the district.  This is in direct conflict with what GTA says.  

This Eagle Coach (who is also a MB counselor) made my son take 24 months to complete his Personal Fitness MB because he kept delaying their last meeting.  By the time this person finally found the time to meet, my son had broken two bones and couldn't complete the final fitness test. Among other things.  We are NOT using him as Eagle Coach.  So yes, I am going to make a big deal about it.  

The person from Council who was at our Committee meeting when my son's proposal was approved, and who said they would be willing to act as his coach, has not responded.  My son would like to get this turned in so that he can work on the project over the summer.

1 minute ago, mrjohns2 said:

I think you are going to have to get over it. Our district has a designated person to hand the project into. Just turn it in. Done. 

It's not who we are handing it in to... it's who can do the handing in.  National says the scout can do it.  Our District says he can't.

Of note, none of the other Districts in our Council list this as a requirement.

Just now, mrjohns2 said:

They aren’t saying you need to use a coach, just give the project proposal to a coach. It seems like they are the ones you turn the project proposal into. Keep it simple. 

That requires us to go to our unit Eagle Advisor.  I know this may seem silly to you, but this is a major issue for both of us.  I don't want to post details here, where the Eagle Advisor can't refute what I say, in case it becomes clear who I am talking about.  

2 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Yeah, it is actually in the handbook requirement you need district or council approval before you start the project. What is the confusion? 

Our District is requiring the Eagle Coach to submit the proposal for approval.  Yet GTA says a scout is not required to use a Coach.  In fact, GTA says the District or Council will designate a coach after the proposal is submitted.

Another complication.  My son was trying to fill out page 9 of the Eagle Scout Workbook, where it asks for the contact name, address, phone and email for the Council Service Center.  He pulled up our Council website, and under the Eagle Project section it says:

Proposals will be accepted from Eagle Coaches ONLY. Scouts should NOT submit their own proposals. WORKBOOKS MUST NOT BE PROTECTED BY PASSWORD OR IN ANY OTHER MANNER. Proposals are distributed to the District Committee for review in the order they are received. The review process may take a few weeks. The District Committee will return comments and questions to the Scout and the Scout’s Eagle Coach should any clarification or revision of the proposal be necessary. The Scout should resubmit the revised proposal promptly. Scouts must receive District approval before beginning work on the project. 

This doesn't align with Guide to Advancement, which states a scout does not need to accept the help of an Eagle Coach.  Neither of us is sure what to do now.  Can Districts or Councils make their own rules that are in conflict with what is published by National?  I don't want to create a big sh--storm here, but for multiple reasons my son does not want to work with our unit's assigned Coach, and I am 100% behind him on this.

Update:  Our Eagle Advisor didn't take kindly to BugleSon presenting on his own, but fortunately our Unit Commissioner and another leader from Council were at this particular Committee meeting, and they verified that it is a Scout's decision to work with an Advisor/Coach - or not.  Our Unit Commissioner has offered to coach my son through the remainder of the project; elp that BugleSon will happily accept, so that is another positive.

BugleSon's proposal was approved, but he still needs to present it to our ScoutMaster, who was not at the meeting. 

BugleSon (so named by a forum member here), will welcome help and guidance from whomever Council assigns him. Our unit ‘Eagle Advisor’ has positioned himself in such a way that most adults and scouts in the Troop think they must go to him first, before even thinking about a project, which has resulted in a certain young man dragging his feet even more than usual, and even muttering ‘I’ll just quit.’  
 

I didn’t want to tell him he wasn’t required to do something only to turn out to be wrong, so thanks for helping to verify that he is within his rights to present the proposal on his own.  He read the Workbook, but I may ask him to read section 9 of GTA as well. 
 

If all goes well, he will be rebuilding some rudimentary bridges that were unofficially put in place on Township green-space property over small streams, adding three bog bridges over marshy spots, and adding two informational signs - one about the importance of trees in removing ground water to prevent flooding and run-off, and one about invasive plant species. 

Ah, pancakes.  AKA "scram-cakes" in our troop, thanks to one trip where the scout doing the planning and cooking didn't bring any butter or cooking oil to use before pouring the batter into a not-so-seasoned pan.   We avoid using any grease/fat left over from cooking meats, as a few of our scouts' families are vegetarian.

On 2/4/2015 at 1:55 PM, fred johnson said:

Re-reading your question made me realize it can be asking from many different directions ... For the duration of an Eagle Service Project. For their whole rank. Or, someone who serves the troop working with each Life scout to make sure they have a plan to earn Eagle. Or, someone sitting on the troop committee who works a plan to get as many scouts to earn Eagle as possible.

 

=================================================

 

But per a simple reading ... our troop lets the scouts work with any of the registered leaders as a coach or advisor (for the whole rank or for the project) ... or their parent or another adult they trust. We just make sure we contact that person and make sure they know the eagle process and will give good advice.

 

For the future, if it's not a family member, we'll make sure it's a registered scouter.

 

===============================================

 

KenDavid500 ... Please note that your question was excellent because it caused me to read and learn something I did not realize. BSA documents the project "coach" in the GTA section 9.0.2.9 "Eagle Scout Service Project Coach". BSA uses the term coach, not advisor.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

 

I learned that the district / council is supposed to assign a coach (whether from council, district or unit scouter pool) to each scout as part of approving the proposal.

 

BSA writes in GTA 9.0.2.9 paragraph six ... "Regardless, it is considered best for the council or district to designate one for every Scout who submits a project proposal for approval. The coach should then contact the Scout and suggest a first meeting, or telephone or video conference."

 

So ... it's "best" (not an inflexible rule) if a coach is assigned when the proposal is reviewed. Hmmm......

Resurrecting this old thread because I had a very similar question.  Our unit has an "Eagle Advisor".  For reasons I won't get into, my son does not want to work with this person.  So... GTA says "It is true a Scout need not accept the assistance of the service project coach.  Regardless, it is considered best for the council or district to designate one for every scout who submits a project proposal for approval."

To me, this says that if a scout doesn't want the help of the Coach provided by council, then he certainly doesn't need to work with someone from the unit, either.  Would you all think the same?

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

My Troop also pays the leaders' registration fees.  We have one primary fundraiser that does very well.  Part of the profit goes to scout accounts.   The other goes to Troop expenses which includes adult fees.  The $0 MBC was really about not charging the local weatherman or pilot who would like to volunteer to be a MBC.  It was never about an end around for those closely associated with Troops. If that local weatherman is looking to camp with the Troop then they are likely not just a MBC.

Our Troop pays for the adults as well, but after this latest recharter we're discussing no longer doing so.  With the rising costs, and our dwindling number of scouts, we can't afford it.  In the past we had 5 SM/ASM's and 8 Committee members, with 70 scouts.  Now we're down to 30 scouts, but only dropped one ASM and one Committee member.  Money coming in from our fundraiser is way down, and we don't want the Troop to become more about trying to raise money than scouting.  Not sure what we'll end up doing.   Also, we have three special-needs scouts and a parent always come with them on the few trips they attend.  

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The question was directed at @swilliams

LOL, yes, DVOA is the Delaware Valley Orienteering Association.  (context?  no orangutans mentioned... orienteering was the subject answered... Google DVOA and orienteering and voila...)

https://www.dvoa.org/

They create orienteering maps for many state parks and public areas around the Delaware Valley.  They also sponsor orienteering events in the area.

Although I have never met anyone from DVOA, we have used their products extensively.  So, @swilliams, if you are a DVOA member, THANK YOU!

Here is a sampling of some of their publicly available maps:

http://elibrary.dcnr.pa.gov/GetDocument?docId=3559452&DocName=HICK_Orienteering.pdf

https://www.dvoa.org/learn/perm/French-Creek-Hopewell-OPC_2015.pdf

https://www.dvoa.org/learn/perm/Fort-Washington-OPC_2020.pdf

Enjoy!

 

I am not.  I've been looking for other opportunities for our scouts that don't involve me trying to draw my own maps, haha, so thank you for those links.  

Last year I spent a ridiculous amount of time making an orienteering map, then spent about $130 on a starter pack of control flags, race cards, and card punches.  It was a HUGE success.  The scouts loved being sent off into the woods alone.  The race/contest aspect was secondary.  I did have parents stationed at a few of the controls, we had water/Gatorade at one, and I was in roughly the center of the course with a full first-aid kit.  

The scouts have asked to do it again, so I'm working on a second map.  The best part is that it takes a LOT of mapping in the field, so I have an excuse to get outside and wander around the forest.  If any of you out there are in the area of the Watchung Reservation in NJ and want to use the first map, I would be more than happy to send you the map electronically.  It prints out to 11"X14".  You would have to supply your own course materials, but you can mark the control points with anything, really, then just come up with a way for scouts to mark that they visited each individual station.  If you have enough parents (10), they could man each point.

Four and a half months without checking in, and was hoping for some positive news.  I guess the news from the District Court hearings isn't negative, so there is that.  Didn't realize insurers could be likely to receive a stay and could drag this out another year.  😒

Our Council, and therefore some of the adults in our Troop, are pushing for Jamboree, but we have a contingent going to Philmont this year, we're already signed up for our regular summer camp, and with the $1,100+ price tag, it doesn't look like there are more than one or two scouts interested in going. 

So what happens next?

I know that's a very broad question, lol.  If the judge's opinion isn't 100% approval or denial of the plan, what needs to happen, and which entity needs to take the steps needed, to get to the end of the bankruptcy process and begin to settle with CSA victims?

Apologies, but I've been sort of following this off-and-on for the last half year.

20 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

She rejects the third party releases for TCJC (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints} as they went too far.  That is why she is excluding their $250M settlement as she expects that may change.

 

The issue is TCJC were attempting to clear out mixed claims.  She is ok clearing out pure scouting abuse from TCJC, but mixed claims are a bridge too far.

 

So ... "... I decline to approve the TCJC (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) Settlement."

By “mixed claims” do you mean claims where it’s not clear that the abuse happened within the context of scouting?  The Church and the scouting program were so intertwined, it would not be surprising if that were the case. 

This one has the rubber-tipped poles.  We’ve had tents in the past that use the little pin inserted into the pole, as well as the sleeves ( which I hated, as the segments of pole always separated trying to get them through the sleeves).

 We sold all of the tents but one this weekend. The one that’s left over probably didn’t sell because I had priced a little higher, but it’s a Eureka Mountain Pass XT.  Nice tent. Four-person, though, so more for family than Boy Scout. 

We’ll probably donate to Veterans.