swilliams

Could someone please clarify where LCs stand with regard to the NDA?  I received an email from ours finally admitting they will have to pay, but claiming they aren’t allowed to tell us what the contribution is.  

I thought I read the info is no longer confidential.  This thread (these threads) are too long to go back and search for it. 

14 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you very much for your even-handed and heartfelt post. For me, and many of us I think, the question of “What if it was your child?” seems too often deflected and not answered honestly. It may appear (or feel) like we are asking it as a weapon of debate, not a deep and sincere entreaty to another human being. Personally, I think yours is the answer most people would have to give. I’m not advocating or condoning violence or any such, I just mean if you don’t have a visceral, protective reaction when confronted with the prospect of the sexual abuse victim being your child or a child you know, something seems amiss. Or, you’re refusing to look at it so you can fire back the next missive. 

As to the sense that “there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done,” that’s true in part and less so as to the other. We can all agree about the undoing. What’s done is done, as to our historic BSA child sexual abuse. As I say, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It happened. It was bad. For many brutal. For nearly all of us, life changing to one degree or another. “Help” is very relative, of course, so it’s terribly hard to accurately define. I will give some examples of things that, for me, have qualified as “helping.” Then, I’ll recap what I said before about a good result, which would “help.”

1. Acknowledgment. I see you. I believe you. You are not alone. You are not forgotten. You are not crazy. You are not worthless. You have a future. You are a man. You did not invite this. You are not defective, even though you have been broken.

2. Listening. As you’ve seen/read, this forum has been helpful for some/many of us. It has been critical to my sanity since I first posted in December of last year. I’m grateful to have been welcomed, even in the midst of occasional canon fire. Sometimes, we just need to express the turmoil and be allowed to do so. It’s one of the most difficult things to do and, as here, when we are attacked for expressing it strongly. When others fail to consider what we’re going through and understand we’re not just lurking around on an online forum looking to pick a fight, it is doubly difficult. When strongly challenged, especially as to our veracity or motive, we either attack back, flee or go numb. 

3. Support. One of the ways people support me is by simply asking, “Is there anything I can do for you today?” Sometimes, they get frustrated when I say “not that I can think of,” possibly surmising I’m trying to be a martyr, carrying the burden alone. When, in fact, I often just can’t think of anything. It’s the ASK and the obvious willingness to DO something that is important. This is why when some of you ask me/us what are obviously compassionate questions about what can be done (for us and in the future of Scouting) it means so much. When I/we sense the sincerity and concern, followed by active (virtual) listening and reflective responses, it’s powerful.

4. Don’t Solve for X. We can’t be “fixed” or solved, as to what happened to us. Fix the BSA. Please don’t come with your tool kit and try to look under the hood of victims and do your magic to make things run smoothly. Men, in particular, can be prone to over-simplify, race to a diagnosis and set off banging on things to make them work. This way too complex. As I’ve said before, if you want to really understand, you’ll need to study the subject matter. You can read, The Body Keeps the Score and Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to understand a bit about impacts. I can suggest others, as well. I could go on, but I’ll leave it there and other guys can add.

I did this in a previous post about a “good outcome” and may forget a couple point, but what would help at this stage, relative to the BSA drawing us out and into this would include:

1) YPT improvements (with all the elements I, MYCVAStory and others have noted); 

2) Full disclosure and accountability;

3) AG investigations;

4) As much money as we can get; and

5) An actual apology, not just “We are so saddened...that some were abused while a part of Scouting.” I tried to teach our kids, if you know you did something wrong, you don’t just throw out an obligatory, “Sorry” and think it’s over. Being sorry is about sorrow for what you said or did or didn’t do. That’s the root of the word. What I requested they do is say, “I’m sorry I ______. Would you please forgive me?” In my experience, adults have a very hard time doing that. Men are particularly challenged. I tried to let my kids hear me ask for forgiveness whenever it was appropriate. I tried to tell them I’m proud of them as often as possible.

Honestly, I don’t think BSA has expressed sorrow. I think we are their embarrassing and vexing albatross. They are certainly not proud of us. Imagine being the poster boys for bringing down the Boy Scouts. I’ll stop there.

Yeah. This is my internal dilemma, as well. I gained much, lost more.

Camping, and all that goes into it, definitely produced the core benefit for me.

Again, you’re candor in expressing your struggle is appreciated. 

Thanks for your response - particularly point #4.  There’s a lot to learn from listening (or reading, in this case).  

I see where many of us likely have the wrong idea of helping and ‘fixing’.

13 hours ago, Life said:

Ugh. Rather than reply to a particular post I’ll just put in on the thread. I’m an amateur at best when it comes to forums. 
 

first I’ll state again how I am much impressed with the level of maturity from the survivors responses here. Seeings how most of us are stunted in many ways and have had to fight to learn How to communicate on this topic. And survivors we are. 
 

There is no need to victim blame / shame either. We have done that to our selves for all the years that led up to this. 
 

Ohh… the things we have gone through on this road that was thrust upon us. From 15 to my early 20’s ( after the abuse and recall settled in) I was in a constant state of terror! Shame, guilt, identity confusion, as well a loss of sense of self. Did I exist, or was I a non entity? Add not being able to separate terror from natural sexual feelings. The only reason I survived is I had a human spirit that woke up and became able to keep going. But I didn’t want to. 
 

my abuses were reported. Due to the nature of this case and my own sensitivity I’ll leave it at that. 
 

ive been fighting this for a long long time. I do not want other kids to suffer at any end of this. I want this problem solved!!!! 
 

when asked what is a fair resolve? Ask it like this. 
If my child was used for sexual gratification at the hand of a grown man, while under the protection of an organization pointed at male youth, knowing his life path will be severely impacted and he may not recover mentally, what would I think is fair. Would you worry about the future of the organization? Or the future of your child? 

As a parent, I’d want the abuser to suffer in ways more creative than any I could even come up with. I’m not sure that would be of any help to a child. Or a grown man who was abused as a child. It appears there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done. 

And yes, I’d want the organization that allowed it to pay.   Still, I want to see scouting continue because I see my older son, who had some pretty major issues with anxiety, self-doubt, and suicidal thoughts as a 10-11 year old, and who has a very mild learning disability, become stronger and more confident through the opportunities he has gotten from scouting.  (He actually corrected his swim coach the other day. A major achievement for him to speak up for himself.)

There has been a lot of discussion about what can be given up and still have a functioning program. Camping, and the learning and leadership that goes along with it, has been the largest part of my son’s progress. Maybe everything should be given, as it’s not like camping doesn’t exist outside of a scout reservation. My own bigger worry would be that without an actual organization it all falls apart. Maybe something else eventually takes its place, but most people I know can barely organize a dinner with friends twice a year, let alone structure something meaningful for a large group of kids without the support being part of an organization brings. 

I’m not sure, after being part of this thread and having all of you willing to share your thoughts and stories, that the trade off of helping some boys is worth risking the abuse of another.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I’m just a mom who wants what’s best for her own child, and is having a hard time reconciling. I’m getting there, though. 

One thing that has occurred to me, as I’ve questioned why I’m okay with having my sons in scouts (and daughter in Venturing), is that I’ve continually camped with both the troop and crew  and am personally involved - as a crew advisor and a troop committee member and registered adult. My husband is an ASM now as well. 

I’d say make all the parents be more involved, but who am I kidding. I can’t even get enough people to sign up for once-a-season shift in the snack shack and end up making my kids help me run it. 

On 7/28/2021 at 5:31 PM, ThenNow said:

I don't recall getting anything at my Court of Honor save for a cake, which my dad made. Oh. I did get some cash from relatives and a twelve pack of Old Style from my fellows. All seriousness aside, I mean messa got nada from the esteemed Troop. (Btw, I don't like the term Unit. Just putting that out there.)

 At our last Eagle COH I gave the four scouts we were honoring a picture frame with the photo mat showing images of the merit badges they had earned, and with their name and date they made Eagle at the top. It was intended to be a personal gift from me, but our Scoutmaster somehow convinced me to present them as being from the Troop.   I guess that’s what we do now. 

I’ll answer myself, haha!! 

For anyone else who may have come across this issue., I still don’t know how to print on the cards from the scout shop, but our former advancement chair just contacted me. (Of course, mere seconds after I posted here.)  Apparently there is special blue cardstock you purchase from Troopmaster. 

I think I’ve posted about this before, but can’t find anything. I’ve been unable to find a program/template that prints on those perforated cards you get from the scout shop. Troopmaster will generate a card, but it’s in landscape format and print two per page -huge!!

Can anyone help?

20 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I find it very interesting that the judge delayed the trial by almost two weeks.  I wonder/hope it might mean she heard there is progress on mediation. Not sure if that is possible.  Otherwise, it seems a bit odd to delay as BSA is running out of time.  

That would be nice, but I just don’t see BSA suddenly reversing over a year’s worth of foot-dragging and unrealistic view of what they can part with. 

Does anyone think they’ll now agree to sell off the HA bases?  Maybe they’ll try to legally force councils to participate?  I can’t pretend to know, but their past maneuvering makes any new progress seem unlikely. 

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

Which, in my mind, dictates in favor of lifting exclusivity and allowing the TCC, Coalition and FCR to propose a competing Plan.

Certainly sounds like it. Without being there, and not totally understanding all the legalese, it appears to this lay-person that BSA and their lawyers are still not putting forth any “real” effort. Over a year into it. Disappointing, I’d hazard to say, for all of us regardless of our interest in seeing the end of litigation. 

Agree with those who have said let the individual units decide whether to be girl, boy, or co-ed.  My daughter had two Venture Crews to choose from; one co-ed and the other all-girl.  She chose the all-girl crew.  Apparently it's not only boys who feel less pressure or more comfortable in a same-sex group.  🙂 

52 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Good, bad, or neutral for the Unit.  Do I still need to make big recruiting plans for August / September?  Do I need to think about how I tell elementary school kids they can't do Scouts anymore or can that hold off for a while after these new developments?  So on and so forth.

We don't have any recruiting events planned (thanks Covid), but will hold off of basing any plans around the outcome of the bankruptcy, with the exceptions of telling Life scouts to hurry up (and encouraging the same for Star).  We're planning on welcoming the AOL's as usual.  Dues aren't due for any current scouts until fall anyway.

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

A) Take ALL 80,000 claims currently pending.

B) How much is the AVERAGE cost for each claim going to be?

Multiply A*B = How much needs to go into the Settlement Fund when all this is over.

Then the next part: who pays for what parts of that number. BSA? Local Council? COs? Insurance companies?

Thanks. I’ve seen your magic math on this pages back, working from two ends, just didn’t make the connection.

Can someone please explain to me what “Estimation of Claims” is in layman’s terms?

Also, is anything happening prior to the status conference in mid-April?  And is that just what it sounds like; a check-in on progress of BSA supplying rosters?

From what I can tell by reading the last four pages, there’s been no ruling on whether LCs are separate, is that right?  Did she indicate whether LCs must come to the table?  We all know they’re going to have to, but as of now they’re still not being required to?

Thanks.  

11 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

There is happy news...it's over a hundred years old.

There was a time when there were no "Scouts."  And the movement started with idea from an old crusty British Army guy.

No need to worry...kids want Scouting, and it will happen.  Be there for them.  Take them camping.  You already know the like-minded people around you.

BSA is not the be-all-end-all of Scouting.  Just the current major market-share provider.  If they go away, be a grass roots startup.  You will have a blast. 

I'll ask what our SM asked when I suggested this. Who is going to insure you? 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Agreed.  I do think there is a chance that the non monetary changes could have negative consequences.  They only real way to avoid one on one is adults must be with an adult buddy at all times.  Im not advocating for this, just indicating some possible non monetary impacts of bankruptcy.

Thats kind of how we do it in our troop. 

2 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

The BSA acquired the land for the Summit in 2009/2010 timeframe, the opening event was the 2013 National Jamboree.  The first year of summer programs for units was 2014.  You might be thinking about a different place if your troop went in 2005/2006.

Thanks. It was before my boys joined - four years ago for my older son, two for the younger. I was guessing at a rough time-frame and obviously way off. 

Thats what happens when you get old. 1995 seems like it was a couple years ago!  It was definitely Summit. We had a PLC meeting two years ago and were discussing HA trips, and where the scouts wanted to go.  Not a single vote for WV; evenly split between Philmont, Sea Base, and repeating a past trips to the Grand Canyon and Costa Rica. 

Which brings up the point that although Scout-owned bases are easier to attend for planning purposes, it wouldn’t mean the end of high adventure if we didn’t have them. 

I’m not a great letter-writer. I do wonder if a petition would do any good, and I would happily sign my name to a statement saying I could care less about keeping Summit. 

I mentioned upthread a ways that our troop went once - it would have been around 2005 or 2006 - and we never went back again. Maybe the ‘improvements’ changed it for the better, but we’ve chosen Sea Base and Philmont on a rotating basis every three years (with a less-expensive option in the third year).

Might be too little, too late, particularly after BSA’s opening offer, but if someone does start a petition I’ll circulate it as far and wide as possible. 

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

For me, we are at too many what ifs to really plan.  My primary concerns are:

- Philmont ... I have 2 crews going ... will that happen and is their money safe?

- Summary Camp ... will my camp be pulled by this summer and are our deposits safe.

I think, for now, both are safe for this summer so we move on.  The summer of 2022, on the other hand ....

This is kind of what I mean by ‘what ifs’.  It’s too soon to tell what exactly will happen, but it’s not too soon to come up with a list of questions we’d like to try and find answers to. From the provided list, our council has a couple hundred cases. There’s going to be SOME kind of major change happening, regardless of what form it takes. 

Troop issues, too, like what happens to Troop property in the event BSA ceases to exist?  Trailers, canoes, camping equipment, any cash in the bank, etc.  Can another organization be formed to purchase our summer camp if council is disbanded?

Outside our Troop’s control, what happens to the camps that our council runs, but doesn’t own?

22 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

The "contingency plan" is pretty straightforward.

1) Life Scouts are going to be, in effect, assigned an ASM mentor. The two of them will ram and jam ASAP whatever is left for Eagle. Given everything discussed here, we are not expecting BSA to be operating much past July 1 and that's out "target date" for all Life Scouts to sit for EBORs.

2) All other scouts and scout parents have been notified that committee leadership as well as our SM believe that BSA will cease operations/liquidate in the next 4-6 months. We will do what we can to keep our Troop operating but that we do not expect to exist past that point. We will do what we can and work with the CO/COR to talk refunds and what can be done.

3) We already gave our District advancement person a heads up and he agrees that he doesn't expect BSA to survive this so he understands. There will be a TON of EBORs to push through other units.

BSA's dead, but it isn't fair to scouts to see all their work fail.

If BSA liquidates and ceases to function, do councils have the ability to proceed with the program?  Does the program still exist?  

Of course troops can still get together for activities, and I would hope ours does. But, for example, if my older boy can somehow earn Eagle before BSA shutters and his younger brother wanted to follow, can council or the troop confer Eagle rank without a National organization to recognize it?  I don’t know that he would care whether it was “sanctioned” or not. Just a thinking out loud thought. 

4 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

With the speed of the courts, don't you feel that this is premature? Having a letter ready is fine to be prepared, but sending it out? I don't know if anyone knows anything. I wonder if the judge would even have a inkling of the timing. If National fails in the summer, it by no means that the LC's fail immediately. I guess you are a cynic, but wow, this seems premature to me.

Agree that it’s perhaps premature to send out a letter to parents. I have contacted our SM and CC.  We’re setting up a meeting for this weekend so we can start planning out our ‘what ifs’.

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I've decided to stop FOS or any fundraising that helps my council.  They have over 200 claims.  I expect most of my funds will go to a bankruptcy settlement.  I will give them the funds I typically provide post bankruptcy settlement.  I'm going to recommend my Troop and Pack take a similar plan ... save your contributions and then provide post settlement.

How/where did you find the information about claims for your council?

4 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

By way of reassurance, would someone please confirm that this avoid, deflect and deny position on grooming is extremely limited among volunteer and professional Scouters? Thank you.

I can only speak for myself, and tell you about the YPT that is given (if you haven't taken it yourself).

YPT teaches about more than just abuse, but I'll tell you that on the specific topic of grooming, it's covered and explained pretty well.  It's been a year since I took it, but I definitely recall the program using an example of the abuser getting to know the family to build trust, then offering tickets to a baseball game, starting with small, innocuous gestures like putting a hand on the scout's shoulder, then building from that.  It's so gradual, that the scout is trusting of the abuser by then, and if the person is someone your parents accept, that YOU accept, that's where much of the power comes from.  It makes it confusing for the scout, and adds the idea that other adults won't believe any accusations, plus the scout has come to like the person.  Very complex, and why the first rule of YPT is to never allow one-on-one in scouting.

I can also tell you that our Troop takes YPT very seriously, and doesn't short-cut.  To the point that it's made things difficult, particularly when scouts working on their Eagle project are having a hard time getting two registered adults for their work days.  We now ask that both parents of a scout working toward Eagle register with the Troop.  The Troop will help pick up the cost of the registration, if needed.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Curious...how do you know this?

The mom of Scout One told us (me, SM and CC) after the school notified her that her son had been named in a HIB.  She thought we ought to know since Scout Two had said this occurred during a Troop meeting.  Are you thinking she may not be telling the truth about it?  Of course, the school cannot, and should not, confirm or deny, nor would I ask them.

I suppose I could just resign my position, then I wouldn't have anybody bothering me about it.  😄

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

If the claimants want the Summit I think most Scouters would be happy to give it up to settle this.  How about:

• claimants get: the Summit and Northern Tier
• scouts keep: Philmont and Sea Base.

Our Troop went to Summit once, before my time.  Says something that they haven't been back since.

In discussing some of this with our CC and SM, they think our Council owns only one of the three properties in their operation.  I tried to verify that, and couldn't actually find anything concrete providing that information.  How hard is it going to be for National to pull all this together?  I would think they'd already have a list of what councils own, but maybe not?

On 3/6/2021 at 12:58 PM, yknot said:

 I can see where that would have some basis in fact, at least as far as how that data could be a reality. In the BSA YPT system, there is no oversight. COs are supposed to be the overseers on paper, but in reality that often does not happen and there are multiple reasons why Districts, Councils, and the BSA turn a blind eye to that and don't enforce it. There is a lack of clarity in many BSA YPT policies. There is great variation in how different scouters and units interpret YPT.  In those ways I think it is less effective than the YPT programs administered by some of the churches, sports leagues and other youth activities I have encountered. There is a lot more clarity and direct oversight in other youth organizations. That might also be a function of the fact that many of those activities are less fraught with problematic situations than scouting is.   

I coach cross-country and track for grades 4-8.  BSA's YPT is better in terms of material covered and instruction on protection from abuse than the USATF's 'Safe Sports' program (which includes instruction on sports injuries and motivation issues).  There's very little occasion, at least at this level, for abuse to occur.

I don't think lack of clarity is as much an issue as lack of oversight or method of insuring each unit actually puts into practice the YPT.  As to how you do that....