HelpfulTracks

On 4/27/2020 at 12:35 PM, TAHAWK said:

Sadly, as I have noted, our SE thinks training is a bad idea becasue poorly-done training is not popular with the customers. His dichotomy is: poor training vs. eliminating training as much as possible  He very much favors everything on line becasue it is "more efficient."

So my question is was your SE not trained or was he just poorly trained?

Indeed. Sad, but not unexpected.

This one of those post that makes me shake my head in bewilderment.

1. How does it equate to endorsement because  National took a photo of youth wearing neckerchiefs using friendship knots? 
2. I’ve know Crews that used them well before world Jambo, as was suggested (I think with tongue firmly in cheek). In fact, I my NSJ necker is laid together with world contingent necker and tied in friendship knot (it also has a unique slide in one side that was gifted to me).
3. Some youth prefer knots, some prefer slides, let them choose. (Although I can see a unit asking them to choose one or the other for uniformity).
Personally, I usually use one of my neckerchiefs with friendship knot when wearing my Crew uniform and use slides with BSA uniform, and woggle when wearing WB necker. (Frankly, it’s easier to keep the friendship knot looking neat and tidy)

4. Burnham, like most cowboys tied his scarf in a knot. BP got the idea of the necker (and campaign hat) from Burnham.

5. BP himself said using a knot was knot was one way to keep a necker neat and in order. 

So.......knot, slider, woggle makes little difference. I’m just thrilled to see youth wearing neckerchiefs at all.

I’m going to disagree with Fred and Eagle 94.

It depends on the Scout and the adult leaders.

My project, way back in the day, was not high tech, but had a lot of very specialized craftsmen. I did a lot of planning, site drawings and sat down with the craftsman multiple times to go over options. When the project began my Scoutmaster made sure they knew that I needed to be the leader. I directed and lead them. When we hit a snag, they would come to me and we discussed options, but I made the decisions. 
 

My son did a digital video with high end video, audio and editing equipment that was on loan, rented or purchased. He brought in people to teach the scouts how to film, do lighting and audio. The scouts did 100%!of the pre-production under his supervision. He did story boards, laid out the shot sheet and directed the production. He delegated task to other youth with clear direction on a number of things. Post-production was done by an adult because of cost and complexity of the equipment and skills needed. He went through hours of time coded video and made a detailed edit list for the editor to follow and sat with him to direct the final edits, music and audio. 
 

Technical projects are possible. The Scout and adults just need to know who is in charge. 

So with the Coronavirus/Covid-19 changing our country and the world on a daily and hourly basis, I expect we will see a great deal of permanent cultural changes in most societies in the near future.

Among them I expect to see the handshake becoming near taboo, including the Scout handshake, and thereby the OA handshake.

The left handed handshake and clasp are such an identifiable part of Scouting worldwide that it is hard to imagine it going away, but unfortunately I think it will. 
 

What method of greeting and respect, that would be unique to Scouting, could we adopt to take its place?

As for dates ask the council for a Person Listing for your Scout. It will list dates for everything you need on an application.

Depends on the Scout, their interest and what they have already accomplished, but some that come to mind

• Hornaday
• National Medal for Outdoor Achievement (which requires 3 Outdoor awards + other requirements)

Both of those are rare awards and can be earned by youth until age 21

🖐🏻

If you still have concerns after reading these fine replies, just pull the Adviser aside and let him know.

We are the Brotherhood of Cheerful Service not the Brotherhood of Fantastic Voices. I am infinitely more concerned about attitude, work ethic and character than the ability to carry a tune or remember every word.

Of course I can’t carry a tune in a bucket and my memory is horrible and somehow I made it through Brotherhood and was honored with Vigil. So don’t sweat this and don’t let the youth sweat it either.

On 8/22/2019 at 11:28 AM, mrkstvns said:

In its quest to emasculate scouting completely, Philmont now offers a glamping option that completely removes the possibility that participants might actually experience outdoor life.

The new tents have permanent, full floors, electricity, queen size tempurpedic mattresses with Egyptian 800-thread count sheets, in-tent maid service, in-tent massage, and big screen canvas wall mount televisions with your choice of Netflix or Hulu. Covered parking is provided with valet service available on demand.

The story:
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2019/08/16/with-new-deluxe-tents-philmont-training-center-broadens-appeal-to-more-families/ 

 

I continue to hold that if you believe Scouting is emasculating our youth, it’s your own fault and you are doing it wrong. 

The opportunities for a great Scouting outdoors experience are there if Scouts want to take them. 

A friend of mine just took his Crew on a 4day/3 night 30 plus mile AT trek over the long weekend.

Both of my kids are likely to earn the OAHA Triple Crown and have more than enough camping for the silver National Outdoor Award and enough high adventure  for National High Adventure Award gold x 2. 

But they work their tails off to make it happen.

This is actually a selling point for my family. 

I have two teen scouts, who had 10 weeks of Summer break (71 nights x 2). They had 68 scheduled nights camping between WSJ, high adventure, unit outings, NYLT, summer camp and staff. They were home all of 2 weeks at the same time. That’s more nights than an average Summer but not by much. They already have over 200 nights Scout camping between them and my youngest has been in Scouting less than 18 months.

They already have 38 nights scheduled for next Summer and they aren’t done (pending how much money the raise).

Throw in that I average 12-18 nights per summer, (33 nights a couple years back).

Mom does NOT camp anymore and has never more than a few nights per year ever.

For the last few Summers I’ve tried to figure out how to combine going to PTC with my kids doing a Philmont trek or OATC. 

That would take the family away from mom for another 2-3 weeks. Well, let’s just say I want to stay married, so I’ve never figured out how to pull off the PTC/Trek combo.

With the glamping option I might be able to talk the wife into going out with us. The kids trek for a couple weeks, I get to PTC for one. Then the wife and I spend a week in the area sight seeing and add a few extra days on the trip back to do some things with the whole family.

In our case that means a net plus of high adventure.

21 hours ago, Cptsandt said:

The OA is not authorizing the dash legends because they did not come up with the idea and can’t find a way to get ownership of it to make $$ off this item 

Sure they could. All they need to do is come up with a design, slap the official OA logo on it, copyright/trademark it, make it and sell it. 

I have no doubt OA National would make a good deal of money and profit.

But the OA does not want any patches on the back  of the sash and only Anniversary patches have been approved for the front.

The OA could make a nice profit on things like this, but have chosen to keep the sash free of such clutter.

In addition, the legend patches expose an important part of the induction process to the general public unnecessarily. 

2 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

To ask a possibly stupid question...can foreign johnnies muscle in on BSA national jamborees? 

Absolutely, there were several overseas contingents at the last 2017 NSJ. In fact, they were in Subcamp Echo or Foxtrot ( can’t remember which) and it was the place to be. 

When the site for the Jamboree comes out it should have info for you.

I know there are a couple of days left in the Jamboree but I figured I would go ahead and start a thread on how things went.

The Good: from everything I am hearing, the programming has been great. Both of my kids are having a great time. They are meeting people from around the world, making friends, trying new foods (that participants brought and at the country tents where they can purchase food). They are trading items and getting a few things. Both have been to events at the Summit before, so they were more focused on meeting people than hitting the activities. But the only complaint I have heard was that lighting cut short the activities at Mount Jack, which was out of anyone’s control and understandable, still frustrating when you consider hiking 14 miles for activities.

Overall I think I would give it an A, maybe even A+ based on current feedback from my youth and others I know.

The Bad:

I will start with what frustrates me most. 

Just short of half way into Jamboree, my son told me he had heard they had already consumed 70% of the food. I thought, surely it was a rumor, and even if it was not, the logistics team had time to recover. Then I saw Facebook post about rationing food. I asked my son about it this morning and he told me they were rationing for last few days. He has been purchasing food, not just for the experience, but out of being hungry. I offered to wire him some additional money since he was spending more on food and cutting back on souvenirs. He declined, he told me a Scout is thrifty and he already feels bad that he wasn’t able to raise enough money to cover the whole trip. 

There is no excuse for not getting the participants fed properly, particularly considering the Jamboree team should have the experience of past national Jamborees as a guide and this event was almost a $1000 more than the NSJ.

However, in hindsight I am not really surprised. There have been poor decisions and bad execution for sometime when it comes to logistics. It has been a mess from day one. 

There have been a  number if issues. The participants patches were supposed to be mailed were not received. The Jamboree store was opened to the public so some items were sold out before many participants were even emailed about the site. We were not told before the store opened that bags were being supplied (they were a separate purchase for NSJ unless Council purchased them), some parents went ahead and purchased them because of concerns they would run out. We had to go to multiple sites to purchase SWAG. Virtually every order was wrong, missing items, even included items not ordered, wrong sizes etc. Orders were canceled without explanation or notice even after card was charged. USA contingent items, including neckers, were available on site for anyone to purchase making the trade value nearly far less (kids had hard time trading neckers because there were for sale). Some USA contingent items were at trading post onsite but never on the internet, so USA kids missed out on getting them. 

Venturing units were setup regionally, not by council, so one of my kids units was shuffled 3 times, making communication with leaders difficult. At one time we were told the original unit was collapsed into another unit and there would be new leaders. It was weeks before we knew who those leaders were. 

Both of my kids received emails from leaders from units they were not assigned to, including my son, who is in our councils troop.

The SWAG issue is frustrating and disappointing,  but the food issue is intolerable. Particularly, since it has had a negative impact on my son enjoying the last few days ( he is SPL and had to spend extra time dealing with getting his troop fed and dealing with unhappy Scouts - something he should not have had to deal with)

I would give logistics a D-, maybe an F.

I am just sad that such a great program has been lessened because of poor logistical planning and food.

I will get more details when they return.

I know things may have changed over the last 40 years, but Philmont is hardly crowded. 

Except for Base camp and some activity camps,  I don’t remember seeing other crews much. I think we may have seen a couple in passing, and at Baldy and the Tooth. But 98% of the time it was my crew, the mountains, trees and animals.

The memories are great and still strong. I loved Philmont.

My son and daughter at there, in Delta 3. 

My son had the Francesinha and really wants to make it at home.

Both are having a great time meeting peoplpe, trying new food and taking it all in. 

8 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

So, the secret to the Patrol Method is to stand back and let the magic happen?  Please, tell me more about how the magic unfolds to get to Patrol Method.  The first step, it sounds like, is to leave the youth "to their own devices" and they will form themselves into groups.  How long does it take to get to separate, identifiable groups this way?  I assume that this "natural inclination" somehow accommodates the shy kids, the loners, the new youth who don't know anyone else in the troop, and the unpopular kids.  Do these natural groups end up being pretty much the same size?  You don't have a couple of kids who just want to hang with each other and no one else?

After a separate group forms, what happens next in that group?  What is the next step toward Patrol Method?

6 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

My point is, the notion that functioning Scout patrols will form "naturally" is a myth.  It is certainly natural for people to work, play, and live in small groups -- that is the reason for organization into patrols.  But lots of those groups -- especially those with goals and responsibilities -- do not form naturally; they are assembled.  A Patrol Method patrol is a team of Scouts formed for the purpose of learning both skills and citizenship through the autonomous or semi-autonomous planning and execution of Scouting activities.  That can't be done consistently with patrols of "friends" of wildly varying sizes that  "naturally" keep shifting and "naturally" exclude some youth.  Natural clusters may be starting points for forming patrols, but someone (ideally, senior youth leadership in the troop, in consultation with the SM) has to tweak the organization in order to carry out the program.  As with any team, cooperation in a Scout patrol is absolutely necessary for success, but friendship is optional.  (That is the citizenship component of the Patrol Method.)  However, in most cases where the patrol is successful, shared effort and experiences will result in camaraderie, fellowship, and even friendship.

No myth, I have seen it happen too many times. The kids want to make friends, with rare exceptions. Some find it easier than others. 

The process is messy, disorganized, loud and sometimes a bit crazy. All things that run counter to our adult need for things to be organized and orderly. That is why we attempt to "assemble" friend groups. But core groups of youth with form into friends groups and eventually patrols. Leaders will emerge. Some youth with struggle to fit in, that is where adults nudge, whisper in the leaders ear, listen to the youth, ask questions and lead them toward making good decisions and helping others find where they fit in best. 

It is pretty simple, but not very easy. As adults we have to fight our urge to take control and smooth everything out. 

I have read and heard this and similar questions / conclusions / complaints before.

I am bewildered each time. 

If Patrol method is not working in a troop, then it’s because of the troop. More often than not, Patrol method is failing because it is being impeded by adults. Left to their own devices youth will naturally gravitate towards what we call the Patrol method. 

Yes, the recent policy changes of requiring 2-21+ registered leaders makes it more difficult, but it does not make it impossible.iu

In my time as training chair, the hardest thing I had teaching SM/ASM’s wasn’t how to teach knots, compass or axe skills. The hardest thing was teaching them to stay out of the way as much as possible.

Guide, nudge and whisper when needed, but let the Scouts be Scouts and you will be 80+% of way to Patrol method. Teach them as needed and you will have a Unit with a healthy Patrol method.

1. BSA, PLC and SM ( in extreme cases) make the rules. So, unless MOM is a new acronym I have missed see 2 below.

2. Present mom with a brand new kite kit, let her figure it out***

3. Looking at photo, I see 3 separate rugs, so just pull the rug in 2 inches and problem solved. 

4. The only real reason I can see for a similar rule is if a stiff rug is sticking out 3-4 inches it can give the appearance of a solid step and cause someone to stumble. Simple solution, see 3 above, but no need to remove it.

*** I would never tell a Scout to tell someone to go fly a kite, it’s just my inner frustration coming out about overbearing adult rules.

Personally, I love my Crocs, but I’m not a fan of them for camping.

They are too soft to offer real protection and tend to get slippery (inside the shoe) when wet.

They are more expensive, but my whole family uses Keens. As much as we camp though, it’s been worth the cost. We would have worn out several pairs of Crocs at this point, and I can’t count the number of times they have saved toes from protruding rocks and roots.

Similar here. Church was sold and torn down to make room for larger church.

Okay, I know I am a bit jaded when it comes to the news media. I read news with numerous questions about what the REAL story is far too often. 

In this case, the article is about a civil law suit, filed 2 years ago, about an accident 5 years ago, being dismissed. That happens dozens or more of times a day in a city (MSA) the size of Buffalo. So what is the news worthiness? Is there any real news here? Was it just an excruciatingly slow news day in Buffalo? Or, is there some other agenda. 

Of course how one reads an article also lends a bias, but I still don't get the news value here. Is it, Scouts are dangerous? Snow sports are dangerous? Parents are careless? People are greedy?

Personally, I see many great things that come out of Scouting, but the preponderance of articles are negative. This story appears to be a factual story, but I still do not understand its news value. Maybe I am just too paranoid of the news media and their agendas. 

Ahhh, the ubiquitous records fire. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard our council or lodge lost their records in a fire. 

Apparently a whole lot of councils and lodges should have their firem’n chit taken away.

As for your search, I have no information. But good luck, I hope you find something. 

Start with the troop, they may have some history files.

You might want to check the local paper archive/history and photo archives. I have heard of some newspapers keeping kill files on articles not printed, as well as all photos taken.

Also some churches will have old church bulletins. 

The OA lodge is usually a good place to find council historians as well.

Good luck

7 hours ago, MattR said:

The OA has specific requirements that you must follow but, as for elections, you own those. You can make any requirements you like.

Actually, no. The election, it’s requirements and how it’s run belongs to the Lodge, which must follow national guidelines.

The unit leaders discretion ends at determining who is eligible, again, based on national guidelines.

9 hours ago, SM101 said:

Went to the normal Scout camp because it’s the SPL  to support their troop camping.  They camped over the fire one night and slept in canvas tents or under the stars.  They made sandwiches the night of Wilderness survival and built a shelter.    I counted this as 3 nights because it was a separate Scouting event and different dates than the long term camp.  No other event shall exceed 3 nights even if they camp more nights.

My main quest is May I count the three night campout 

I have to admit, I’m not following this paragraph.

I will say I follow the spirit of what the OA is trying to achieve, which is to select honor Scouts with an emphasis on camping experience. 

Specifically, national has said you cannot split long term camping, like a 10 night Jamboree, into 3 outings of 5, 3 and 2 nights. But I cannot find anything on using a portion of a long term camp. Personally, to me counting it goes against the spirit, as they are usually, different types of camping. 

Also, I do not count shelter camping unless they are open shelters like the Adirondacks (not fully enclosed) found in some national parks. Even then I would have to give it some serious thought before counting more than one event using any shelters like Adirondacks.

Ultimately, beyond defining the minimum nights for long term camping (5), and maximum nights for short term camping (3), the OA leaves it to the discretion of the unit leader to determine if a Scout meets the requirements.

I would point you back to the spirit of the election. It is not about getting a sash and a patch. It’s about selecting those scouts with strong camping experience who live the oath and law daily.

A few more points to think about in terms of elections and eligibility:

First, call out is not required and even if you want one, it can be done by the troop itself, so don’t make it an arbitrary barrier.

Second, the unit may have only one election per calendar year.

Third, a Scout is eligible for election until they turn 21, so even if he is going off to college he can be kept on roster as a Scouter reserve and sill be eligible to be elected up to the date he turns 21. 

I hope that helps.

Like @qwazse said. I prefer zippered binders. If you have need things that don’t fit nicely into binders, zipper pencil bags or good old ziplocks (hole punched) are good. 

I like  to keep things organized by unit paperwork in front and Scouts alphabetically behind that. Being really overly organized I tend to use labeled dividers for each subject/scout. 

I always keep an identical binder for anything I need to turn in, which has come in handy on more than one occasion.

Any meds go in a lock box where I and two trusted adults have keys.

I will also keep extra cash/prepaid card for emergencies, ever since I had one Scouts pack become lost by the airline. I would not do that because a scout is careless or over spends, but for something out of their control I won’t let it ruin his trip or mine.

That is a particular issue with Sea Base as so many fly in and will not have time to wait for found luggage before departing on their adventure.