HelpfulTracks

Hmmmm, coffee delivery trucks at camp.

Sounds like a fundraiser for some enterprising young scouts.

Scouts rock!

Have your scouts had any trading? TLT, ILSC, NYLT? 

Are your youth active in OA and attending events and OA training?

Too often youth have no idea of how they should/can organize or lead. Training is a good place to start. 

Even with training, our Scouts didn’t really totally grasp how they should/could be leading until they saw it in action outside the troop. They saw how it was working with OA and everything we had been teaching them sort of clicked and youth led took off like a rocket with them. 

Patrol system and youth led go hand in hand in my opinion. It also takes both the adults willingness to let it happen ( including encouraging and teaching it) as well as the youths willingness to take it on.

Try starting with teaching the youth what patrol method and youth is all about. Then assist the adults in staying out of the way.

We have made “pressed” sandwiches since I was a youth many years ago. We used two cast iron skillets of differing sizes. Preheating both skillets, cooking in the larger and using the smaller as a press. Works well.

1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

If the scouts want it, that's great, go for it!  But in units with scouts who WANT the chance to do more cooking, patrol cooking should be offered.  A scout camp that doesn't offer units the option of patrol cooking is not doing all it can to meet the goals of the scouts (and nowadays, with Cooking merit badge back on the "required" list, there are quite a few scouts looking for more chances to do some outdoor cooking).

If the Cooking merit badge is the goal, then there is nothing stopping you.

Have your scouts plan their meals in the weeks running up to camp, purchase their food the days before and cook during camp. Just do not attend the camp meals in the dinning hall. But understand, that will likely exclude the Scouts from participating in scheduled activities.

Most of the camps I have researched, that offer patrol meals, provide ready made menus for the Scouts to cook. That does not meet the requirements for cooking merit badge. This is the reason Scouts can’t work the cooking MB at high adventure bases.

It would also increase the total cost of Summer camp. Even if every unit cooked their own meals, the camp still needs to feed staff and they get significant cost savings buy for several hundred. So you will not cut the camp fees enough to cover the food cost of purchasing your own food.

But if your Scouts choose to cook on their own knowing the opportunity cost and real dollar cost, go for it. 

Also, dinning halls have been around since the earliest days. Both of our camps had dinning halls from the first day they offered organized Summer camp. They date back to the 20’s and 50’s respectively.

The four digits for the system is a legacy database issue and nothing more. 

I would just pick a number you want. If it isn’t in use or reserved, I seriously doubt it is a hill and DE or SE wants to die on. 

A DC really has no say in the matter. 

Our main Camp has a nice museum. 

Some units and OA Lodges have some nice collections also.

I just flipped through the girls version of the handbook. Of the first 25 images of people (through page 27), 10 are in field uniform, 7 are clearly activity uniforms, 3 are non-uniforms (youth doing stuff at home). The remaining five are rain gear or outdoor gear that may or may not be be covering field or activity uniforms.

 I cannot say I see a pattern that makes me think BSA is down playing field or activity uniforms.

I don’t care as long as it get them excited, promotes Scout and patrol spirit. 

More power to them.

I’ve never seen a dog that could not swim, at least a short distance and time. Even those with a lot of fur that traps water tend to keep their heads above water.

Great job by the Scouts though. Never know when your training and skills will come into play. Thus, be prepared.

As a District Commissioner, I don’t care what number a unit uses as long as it is available and not in use or reserved. 

Our council tends to try and reserve numbers for a CO for their other units. For example if the has Troop 100, we tend to reserve 100 for the possibility that they will start a pack, Crew or ship.

i have not heard anything about National trying to push 4 number troops beyond their fact that the system requires them. But that just means that Troop 100 is Troop 0100 in their system.

As for girl Troops I have seen several use the next or previous increment if they are under a CO with a boys. So, a girls Troop under the same CO as boys Troop 100, might take 101 or 99.

But there is no set rule that requires it.

So pick a number because it has meaning to your unit or you like it, or pick a random number. It is up to the CO/Unit.

8 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I am leaning in the direction of not accepting the CM at all.  I am thinking its better for my sanity to stay as a Den Leader only.  In fact I don't want any position on the committee, and I dont want my opinion asked for.  Honestly I want to be left alone and provide the program to the best of my ability to my Den.  The only other option is to leave entirely and that is bad for my own kid.

I hate to see you walk away from the CM position, but sometimes saying no is the best choice for all involved, particularly you and your son. 

If you do choose this path, understand that the same people that you are having difficulty with (or someone like them) may end up in that position. Maybe your path can including influencing who will take that position and help make the choice a wise one for the youth.

20 minutes ago, jjlash said:

 

@HelpfulTracks I assume your handle is referring to the BP quote about leaving tracks.  One of my very favorites - I am big on not reinventing the wheel so I use this quote often to remind my teams to capture their lessons learned "for those coming after".

Indeed my nic/handle is based on the B-P quote, "No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way."

I love the quote because it speaks to how I try to lead youth and adults. 

Flags at the veterans cemeteries 

I'm with @TAHAWK and @DuctTape. Being an adult leader is not always easy. Particularly if you are going to truly follow patrol method and youth led. Being hands off, or more accurately, the invisible hand that guides, is much easier than it sounds. Gut instinct is to jump in and take charge, but resist that urge. Mentor, guide and set expectations, but do not try to run things.

The PLC makes the rules of the Troop as long as they adhere to BSA Policy (G2SS, YPT, G2A etc), the law and CO rules. The PLC is also responsible for the all of the planing, for meetings, outings, service, fundraising etc. for the TROOP.  There are elements of the opening and closing that must be maintained, but everything in-between is theirs to do with as they wish. It is their program, they make it. The Patrol/PL plan and run the patrol corner. 

The only way to keep the youth engaged is via the program. If they don't like the program they will not attend. If they plan the program, hopefully it will be one they like, but if it is not, then they can change it. If the program is boring to them, it is because they made it boring, but they can fix it. 

A better way to get Scouts to outings is to help the PLC plan outings that the Scouts want to attend. It is all about the program. If they don't like it they will not attend. If they see it is fun and they are missing out, they will bend over backwards to get there. 

We had an SPL use Roberts Rules of Order to run PLCs. He did it to make sure things ran smoothly and quickly, everyone provided input and that issues/program was actually put to a vote. He had several years of practice with RRO from school. He was smart enough and well versed enough in RRO that he didn't try to run the PLC using strict RRO, but a streamlined version. It worked well and was still being used by other SPLs when I left the troop. I think using RRO is great as long as it does not become an obstacle or a way to bludgeon scouts.

Welcome to adult leadership.

Unfortunately, there are those in Scouting that want to do Scouting THEIR way or just cannot manage to play well with others. 

Some options:

• Lead them. Easier said than done, but by setting expectations and leading by example, advising and guiding you may be able to get through. Continue to have discussions with them and let them know why you have certain expectations and how they can help you and the Cubs by following them. Hard, but really the Scouting way.  
• It's your sandbox, your rules. Now that you are CM you have push back on certain behavior. Set the expectations and let everyone know what those are. Let them know if those expectations cannot be met you will look for someone who can meet them. The problem is you risk the Scout being pulled out of the program which is what you do not want. 
• Walk Away. There those that suck the joy out of Scouting. I prefer not to be around these people as little as possible. I have walked away from non-critical positions at the end of my term because of people like that. Unfortunately CM is a critical position and not something you can just move on from without consequences to the youth. It's much easier to do that with something like district training chair,. SO not really a viable option here.
• Get them some help. Assign someone that can work well with them, that knows the program and will follow your lead. Maybe that person can figure out how they tick.
• Overwhelm them. Load them up with work that the pack needs. Sure they will screw it up, just give it back to them and tell them to fix it, but put enough weight on them as you can. Make it the least desirable work also. And hope they start pulling back because every time you see them you have a task for them. Kind of counter to Friendly, and again you risk loosing the Cub, but nothing makes people run from you like giving them more work every time they see you.
• Suck it up. Sometimes you can't change people (either their attitudes/habits or by moving them along). So you just have to learn to deal with them for the good of the Scouts. I am not sure there is an easy way to do this other than always greet them with a smile and move on from them as quickly as possible and focus on the youth. 

Just a few ideas. Hope it helps. 

19 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Great feedback, thanks!  I will need to plan working with both the parents/adult leaders and PLC.  My first conversation with adult leaders about patrols was interesting.  I asked how leaders are selected and they said annually by the adults.  I asked about having the patrols vote for their own leaders and the reaction of was mixed.  One parent in particular was not a fan (“we don’t want this to be a popularity contest and the boys never asked for this anyway”).   A very active ASM who was a prior SM (a great leader) was more reserved, indicating that it was discussed and decided previously ... but perhaps we should reconsider.  So, I definitely can see that I need to come in with a strategy and work with both adults and youth on any changes.  Your inputs are very valuable!

I think you would be surprised how the youth would do. 

I expected that they could pick leaders without it being a popularity contest, but I was very surprised how well and how seriously they take doing so. Over the years I have seen unit elections, Chapter and Lodge elections, VOA, Jambo, Vigil and more. Each time I walk away impressed at how well these young people do in the process. 

But, even if it is a popularity contest, it is their choice. They may very well make mistakes, but that is how they learn. 

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

@HelpfulTracks,

I didn't post links to prior WSJs. Obviously some of them didn't have internet links. I don't remember seeing the paperwork for the 1987 WSJ I wanted to go to, So it may have been destroyed in Katrina.  But I remember 13 and First Class as the requirements.

The link i did post was from this site and a letter that one of the other forum member received. His letter stated First Class was being waived by national

I all honesty would it surprise either one of us if one OR both sets of links have incorrect information? 
I have become accustomed to BSA info being different, even within the same site or even same post. 

36 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As far back as i could remember, which admittedly is 1983 WSJ in Canada, you had to be 13 and First Class. Even at the 1995 WSJ, the Scouts were 13 and First Class.

I am not sure where the links you posted came from. 

All I can tell you is that I had signed up for alerts way back in 2016. The only requirements were age (and money). This link dates back to Nov 2016 https://www.2019wsj.org/eligibility-to-attend-the-jamboree/

And I spoke with the staff who manned the WSJ tent at the NSJ. I asked about rank because I had already read the requirements that did not mention rank and my daughter was not yet eligible to join a crew and I wanted to know if I had read it correctly and if not, what, if any, rank (award) she needed to attend. I was told there were no rank requirements to attend (for crews or troops), only age. Which appears to be confirmed from this article from 8/1/2017 https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/08/01/how-to-participate-in-the-2019-world-scout-jamboree-at-the-summit-bechtel-reserve/

I also wanted to verify i was correct because as a SM for NSJ I knew that Scouts were required to have First Class rank. The staff at the tent told me it was a WSJ rule/policy as it would be difficult to have equivalent requirements across countries. SO age only was the requirement.

Beyond that, I am sending a male Scout and female Venturer, and nothing I have received or at any point in their registration has had a rank requirement only age (and a ton of money)

I have since been told two other plausible reasons.

1. Due to the high cost, largest U.S. contingent allotment ever and WSJ minimum age requirement, there was concern about filling the U.S. contingent. As a result no rank requirements.
2. There were some lively "discussions" around the NSJ difference in rules for Crews and Troops.

The first one certainly seems plausible and in actuality is now a reality.   The second is not very logical beyond the fact that the different programs at the national level seem to be looking for any perceived slight.

If I were in your position here is what I would do. I will add this caveat, guide the scouts all along the way, but if they decide to do things differently, then let them, as long as it doesn't break BSA policy or risk safety. Even if you know it will fail, let them do it. That is how they will learn.

Sounds like the SPL is elected by the youth. If so start with him. Explain to him that your job is to help THEM create a program that works for them. That you will make sure that the troops operates according to BSA policy and standards. That you are his mentor and are there to advise NOT run the troop. And that troops are operate in the patrol method, in fact the patrol is the most important part. 

I would urge the SPL to setup a training (ILST) date so everyone knows how a patrol/troop operates and what is expected of PoRs, about PLCs etc. If you have some NYLT trained Scouts, they should be able to run ILST without much assistance. If you don't have NYLT trained Scouts, youmay need to assist a little more. 

I would then talk to SPL about how he thinks they should organize patrols. I would guide him toward self selecting patrols with some guidelines (no less than 6 no more than 10 scout per patrol - your numbers may vary depending on the unit).

After that, have unit elections. If the current SPL was elected, then leave his position alone. If he was appointed start with SPL and ASPL elections. Then PL and APL.

I would then recommend having a PLC where the newly elected leaders come together and talk about what they think meetings should look like, how outings organized etc. Then send them all back out to get feedback from their patrols. Also have them find out what kind of outings the scouts want to do, what type of service projects, do they need fundraisers (what kind) etc. 

At the next PLC have them layout the organizational decisions that need to be made and vote on them. Let them figure out who is in charge of what during the meetings (should be 100% in the Scouts hands except for SM Minute).

Always make sure the PLs are talking with their patrols and making decision on what their patrol wants, not what they alone want. Keep pushing everything back to the patrols. 

After that go into calendar planning. The next couple of months are likely set, so start at 3 months out and work on a calendar year. Let the Scout create a program calendar they want. 

I suggest that they work 3 months out. Month 3 is a loose plan, month 2 almost complete, and the next month is just details.

Find so adult leaders you trust and teach them to mentor (not lead) the PL's and assign one to each patrol.

Steer them toward specific questions like if we want to do x, how can we make y happen. Give suggestions (or questions) that let them discover the answers.  Always push back on the open ended "what do you tin we should do."

The above should take place quickly, a few weeks,not a few months. Ge the Scouts used to making decisions quickly and voting on it. They will make mistakes, but mistakes they can correct and learn from. This will help develop youth led and patrol method quickly.

At every step emphasize patrols, the patrol works together to make decisions, to plan, patrol corners, to set up camp, cook - everything. 

I am sure I left out some important details, but this was what came off the top of my head. 

7 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

I think that's the crux of the issue for me.  We were told nothing was going to change program-wise and we have well documented rules for advancement.  We were told no prior credit would be given.  Then the exceptions started.  Extensions for Eagle, waving the FC requirement for girls for the WSJ, etc.   In this case the rules are being folded, spindled, and mutilated for one high-profile scout.  It is embarrassing. 

First, there was no waiving of FC rank for WSJ, because there was never a rank requirement. Only an age requirement. That goes back to literature I received prior to and at the 2017 NSJ. 

IN fact Ms. Ireland used the argument that BSA was blocking girls from attending because they would not have time to earn FC. As I pointed out at the time, she was wrong. 

As for waivers, I was initially opposed. In hindsight, I think it is a positive. Not because of Ms. Ireland or girls like her. But because of all the young ladies that are Venturers and joining Scouts BSA. They are providing a good deal of leadership and experience and making the program better. Without their influence I am convinced we would see a program that is more adult led and less about the outdoor experience. 

10 hours ago, mashmaster said:

A woggle is a woggle.  Part of the attitude of those adults that you had to deal with is part of what I have issue with woodbadge.  Some people make such a big deal about Wood Badge that people that take the course are better scouters than others.  Wood Badge is a good course, I know many people that have taken wood badge that take every short cut possible, and I know people that didn't that do more for scouting that is above and beyond what is expected.  IMHO, the course has nothing to do about ones character and work ethic, it may just enhance the ethic on the good and bad side.

I have recently stopped wearing my WB necker because of this attitude.

A woggle is a woggle? I disagree, in fact the Wood Badge Woggle, Beads and Necker are one of the very few things that are recognized world wide. It is worn to symbolize completion of something. Just as 3 beads are for staff and 4 for course directors symbolizes a position held. 

With your logic a NESA slide is just a slide (not an indicator of being an Eagle and supporting NESA). Same for SPL patch, Commissioner arrowhead, Jamboree necker, Ranger Award medal, AOL knot, Founders dangle, Lodge flap, Silver Beaver award, and so on. Scouting restrict certain items for wear because they are earned or because they are honors. The WB Woggle is one of those items. 

I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with Wood Badgers, most I know give back far far more than the average Scouter, certainly more than an hour a week. But there are some bad apples out there. Just as there are in any group. I have certainly met Eagles that have disappointed, Arrowmen that lack in the area of Cheerful Service. In fact if I were to stop wearing certain items, as you have with the WB Necker, because of the actions of a few that also wore it, then I would not even wear the BSA uniform. 

We can choose to disassociate ourselves from a program because there are those that do not demonstrate the best qualities or we can choose to double down, wear the necker with pride and try to be the very best example of what that program represents. I choose the latter.

19 hours ago, ParkMan said:

RIght - it's this specific Woggle that is restricted. 

Any other kind of Woggle is perfectly fine.

I am not a fan of Ms. Ireland's tactics or rhetoric, but to be fair to her, I remember reading that is some type of  Wood Badge part 1 in Canada which she was eligible and has participated,  thus eligible to wear the WB woggle. I do not recall all the details but that portion of Wood Badge is open to youth and the Woogle signifies completion. 

On 5/10/2019 at 2:28 AM, ParkMan said:

we're a farily large troop (about 75 active scouts) and have had a pretty stable program for many years.  

Quote

We're definitly not an Eagle mill troop.  What I see is that the troop adults are trying to foster success in as many of the eight methods as possible.  It's not a concious plan, it just happens.  T

I would disagree with you on this. Based on what you have said about your troop I think it is most certainly a conscious decision. But the decision is not to "make Eagles". The decision has been to help the Scouts create a great program. A program that clearly keeps youth engaged and having fun. If troops do this, they will have Scouts earn Eagle. 

Quote

My conclusion from all this?  Focus on having a great, well rounded program that keeps Scouts engaged throughout the years.  The rest happens naturally.

As I said in an earlier post, Eagle mills usually are not sustainable. Their focus is on the wrong thing and Scouts and Leaders burn out.

Troops that build good program are sustainable and will ALSO help Scouts earn their Eagle. 

To paraphrase a line popular in real estate, its all about PROGRAM, PROGRAM, PROGRAM

I have never liked the fact that districts and councils "measure" how many Eagle Scouts they turn out. And if a number is below some level of expectation the question is "what is wrong", if it above the level of expectation, it is "look at how well we are doing."

I suppose it is human nature since it is one of the few methods that has some measurable. But if that is how we want to measure I would prefer to see an overall advancement measure, not just Eagle. Cubs is measured that way, but Scouts is all about the Eagle. 

The measure of a goo unit in my mind is are the youth having fun, are they learning, is the unit a good example of living he Oath and Law. 

I have seen high performing units (based on the above measures I listed) that turn out relatively few Eagles, and other that turn out high percentages. 

I have also seen units that do not meet those measure turn our high percentages of Eagles, but those units generally are not sustainable for ling periods of time because they do not have balance. Their attrition is usually high as those that "fall behind" on the path to Eagle drop out. Those units are often younger (average age of Scout) because those that attain Eagle "Eagle Out".

There are several strong units in mu area that have many Eagles, but they also have many Eagles sticking around until 18 and beyond. They are active in OA and other District and COuncil events. Those units Scouts have fun. 

I am all in on helping youth earn their Eagle, but when the badge becomes the focus then we are short changing out youth. Some units just do not get that.