Eagle94-A1

NYLT is out for at least 2016 as the only ones olde enough to go are Philmont bound.

A litte info about the troop.  3 patrols. Olders Scouts, 13-14 years, 3 First Class, 1  Second class,and  3 Scouts

                                                            Patrol of 12-13 yos who have been in at least a year if not longer and are  probably the best run. 1 Tenderfoot, rest Scout.

NSP All Scout

Scouts did the annual planning. 3 activities "pushed" by the adults. January is a lockin with either ILS-T or First Aid Review, in addition to climbing ( Scouts have said don't mess with their climbing )

Council Camporee and District Camporee are the other 2 adult pushed events. And with the ringamarole the district camporee is making the Scouts do, there is talk among the adults of seeingif the Scouts even want to do it.

BUT that is my #1 change. Right now the annual plan is calendar year, not school year. So the first 6 months we don't have many conflicts.  HOWEVER fall tends to have a lot of them Last year we postponed one camp out because only 4 Scouts could go do to school extracurricuals.

We are not using the troop meeting plans and that is one thing I want to change. Prior to me switching over from CS to BS, the SM did the bulk of the instructing. Whenever i could, I've tried to get the youth to do the instructing. SPL was out of town when we started workingon backpacking, left no instructions, so I got the Tenderfoot NSP member who has more miles on his feet than I do . OK Dad helped a bit too. Dad brought his toys as well to let the  Philmont bound feel how a week-10 day trek will feel, and also to answer questions the Scout couldn't answer, which wasn't much.

We haven't had a lot of adults helping out until recently. Most are doing doble duty with Cubs.

More later

Well being out of work has given me a lot of time to think about my son's troop. Most of you know that the troop has had issues in leadership, specifically an SM with health issues trying to get the troop organized and going with little weekly help from other leaders because most of the ASMs are also Cub Leaders and the troop and pack meet on the same nite. So it's been intersting. SM, in trying to get things up to speed has done more adult lead than youth led.

I've worked some with the Dec-May SPL and a bit with the May-Dec SPL to try and get things more youth led, and more intersting than "lectures"  Some of that has been me and other adults talking about skills, but on a few occasions we had a Scout do it. My personal favorite was the 11y.o. Tenderfoot who has more backpacking miles than I do doing a class on Backpacking class.Those going to Philmont next year didn't take him seriously at first. They know better now.

Anyway the challenges with the troop really hit me when we had a Webelos visit the troop and I talked to him afterwards. He told me that it didn't seem like a real Boy Scout troop with lack of uniforms, lack of patrol spirit, etc, but just like a camping club.  And in thinking about it, he's right.

I'm going to talk to my friend who is suppose to take over as SM as soon as he can find a replacement CM.  I really don't think will have the time committment to be SM since A) he will be a newlywed again and B) Stepson will be a Tiger. if he's agreeable, I may take over as SM once I am out of this imobilizer and I can be active again.

If this happens, there are things I want changed that may upset some of the "older" Scouts. I want them to take on more responibility instead of just goofing off. I want patrol spirit. I want uniforms. I want them to be proud to be Scouts.

BUT I do not want to take over and run the troop and be a dictator.

Any advice?

Doable, but he will have to work. And he will need time to do things on his own.

I know I will get hammered as old fashion preaching out-dated traditional styles of scouting, but this is the main argument against same age patrols. Since there are fewer older scouts to teach the inexperienced scouts, they are left with adults doing the teaching so the scouts to grow and mature. It makes boy run all the more challenging. 

 

Barry

I've been preaching the evils of NSPs ever since my troop was one of the "guinea pig" troops that used it in the 1986-1987 time frame, and it was a complete and total mess. We went back to integrating new Scouts into one of the 3 mixed aged patrols

A few things:

1) Very sorry to see you leave. But can understand when something turns from fun to frustration, it's time to move on.

2) You have a lot t0 be proud of. You've directly touched the lives of 50 young men who need an adult leader like you. And that is just with this one troop. Think about how much of an impact you will have made when the 50 you worked with imitate you!.

3) Keep up the good fight in regards to keeping old school Scouting alive, making a difference to young men's lives, especially with those who need Scouting most.

4) In regards to someof the challenges you and your Scouts have faced locally, Always remember:

I admit I have some " gucci gear."  I ALWAYS pack my newsest toy: a 30 once French press coffee maker. I don't want to wake up Grumpy when she comes, and I am a coffee addict.

But you are spot on about the expensive hydration systems, water bottles and other gear that WILL get lost. 

True Story my son was in a panic because he lost the waterbottle I got for him right before his very first summer camp. He spent over an hour searching for it and was crying over it (I also think part of it was homesickness too).  He said it was special because I bought it for him for camping. I told him it was OK, it's not a big deal, and I would take care of it. So I took him to the trading post, and bought him another Gatorade so he could use the bottle. Yes he was freaking out over a Gatorade bottle I bought before we left for camp.

I admit I tend to focus attitudes and how new leaders interact with their youth. I've had both good and bad expereinces in that department.

I admit I tend to neglect group gear on the Boy Scout level, because i have been extremely fortunate to have been in troops that have been around for a while and have enough group gear. My son's troop was is a ressurected troop, so we have gear from the troop's glory days still in use.  Old, but usable.

In the past, I've done an "Intro to camping" class for Tigers and Wolves in preparation our council's fall family camp out. While I do bring my "toys" to show off (I am a kid at heart   ), I focus more on the DIY gear that you can get from items around the hours ( blanket sleeping bags, tin can stoves, cooking gear from home) or very cheaply from a store ( plastic ground sheets and tarps for shelters).  I stress not making major purchases until they KNOW they enjoy camping.

Then I talk about my "toys." I talk about what to look for in gear. I talk about how if you take care of the gear, it will last a long time. Like the used backpack I got 25+ years ago that oldest is borrowing, the 15 year old tent someone was throwing away because it had a small rip and couldn't sew to fix it. I talk about Government Surplus, and garage sales (now oldest can talk about how he found a fully stocked chuck box with an estimated $100-$200 worth of BACKPACKING cooking gear at a garage sale for $40 for his patrol! ).

What i don't mention to the Cubs, but sometimes to the dads on the side, is what an old SPL of mine told me way back in the day, " Treat your gear like you would treat your girlfriend; take care of it and you will have a long healthy relationship."

Base,

Welcome back!

All,

One of the groups I'm in on Facebook has a topic about Webelos and the new program. As on this site, the conversation has morphed a bit, and something I said over there I think can be used in this situation;

Start talking up the differences between Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts NO LATER THAN ( emphasis) 4th grade Webelos. I actually started the process in Tigers, and I used my 2 den chiefs to the fullest to show the Cubs, and more importantly the parents, the differences between Scouts and how you can "Train'em. Trust'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

IMHO, the biggest issue with new Boy Scouts leaders, especially former Cub Scout leaders, is that they need to "unlearn what they havelearned" by stepping back and letting the boys figure it out.

It amazes me how some people who have the time to write thousands of posts to perfect strangers on an anonymous web site will complain that they have no time for the parent of one of their scouts.

There could be a variety of factors as to why this is frustrating for a leader, and they do not want to deal with it. This could be the parent who the only time you see them is to drop off their son and pick him up. No attending COHs, no showing up to important parent meetings, no involvement whatsoever. But when Tommy Tenderfoot isn't advancing, then she's ticked off and blaming the leaders.

This could be the parent whom you've explained how things go multiple times, but it goes in one ear and out the other.But when Tommy Tenderfoot isn't advancing, then she's ticked off and blaming the leaders.

This could be the parent whom you have attempted to contact on multiple occasions, but they never return your calls, emails, or IMs.But when Tommy Tenderfoot isn't advancing, then she's ticked off and blaming the leaders.

Long before the internet, the adult scouters in my troop would repair to the desert for a weekend, about once every two months.   Just the adults, no scouts, not an official BSA event.   We'd eat giant steaks cooked over mesquite coals, drink beer, and smoke cigars around the campfire.   Maybe we'd talk about scouting, maybe we wouldn't.   It was an opportunity to relax and reflect.   This forum is the next best thing.

This is an awesome way to unwind.

@@Eagle94-A1, I noticed when you refer to basics, you omit "unisex". Isn't that one of the basics?

Sea Scouts and Venturing are co-ed, and I do not see that changing.  Also in regards to female Boy Scout leaders, again that genie is already out and I do not think it can be placed back in the bottle. Besides, I know of a few female leaders who have better knowledge, skills, and abilities in the outdoors than their male counterparts.

My biggest concern is actually adults who "know it all" but actually don't. Heck I've been in the movement over 30 years in various capacities, and i still don't know it all.

If I was king of BSA some things I'd do are the following;

1) Reduce and streamline the national level.

2) Recruit folks with Scouting background, preferably youth background. I dealt with this when I worked for national supply. Folks with 0 Scouting experience coming up with stupid stuff (anyone remember the AOL buckle for leather belts?) that anyone with Scouting expereince would tell you is a bad idea.

3) Get a "Chief Scout" like the UK. Mike Rowe immediately comes to mind.

4) Bet back to basics. Last time national went away from the basics, the Improved Scouting Program of the 1970s, It took William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt coming out of retirement and writing a new handbook emphasizing the traditional outdoor program, as well as creating Brownsea 22 to reintroduce basic outdoor Scouting skills to older Scouts fix the exodus. It worked.

5) PROMOTE THE HECK OUT OF THE PROGRAM. Instead relying on individual councils to pay for advertising, national pays. and puts it on some national level events.

6) Revamp training especially outdoor training and WB21C. I don't like wasting folks time. You know what I thought about my BALOO class after years of teaching IOLS, staffing council level CS events, and being a staff advisor for a council CS event. I think WB should again be 2, maybe even three, programs focusing on CS leaders, Boy Scout leaders, and possibly Venturing Leaders.BS and Venturing WB should again go back to basics, buck kicked up a notch. Sea Badge appears to be spot on (I was hoping to take it next year but medical bills now prevent that ) And the specialty Powderhorn courses we need more of.

Again getting back to our core program, an outdoor youth movement, instead of trying to be all things to everyone.

Someone mentioned IOLS training and folks not knowing a specific knot. IMHO, part of the outdoor training problem is the "one and done" mentaility the IOLS syllabus promotes. Sorry, but you learn the skills and need to PRACTICE them. 

One of the things trainers need to learn IMHO is to the resources in a training group if at all possible. That might be a challenge, finding out who has prior knowledge, skills, and abilities prior to a course. BUT it can make a BIG impact.

I had two extremely knowledgeable individuals I used as staffers for ITOLS, but never took the course. Having them sit through a course they knew would be a waste of their time. Someone who's an Eagle and done Philmont twice, and another Eagle who is prior military and is prepping for Philmont has the basic T-2-1 outdoor skills taught in ITOLS.

BUT getting them to staff it. WOW. That got them motivated.They taught the skills they specialize in, and were able to work one-on-one in other skill areas. Heck even using the students I didn't get the paperwork for until the day before the course were utilized. Utilizing those with skills made the course more meaningfull, and less a waste of time.

I try to avoid having situations like my BALOO class, where it was a waste of time. 

I know of a crew that did have a couple. Girl's mom was not happy about crew campouts as a result. Eventually the crew folded as the Venturers went their separate college ways.

As for the couple, well they just got married in July.

Back when I was in Cubs, it was "Dad and Lad Weekend." But with the increasing number of divorced and single mom families, it morphed to parent and cub weekends, and has morphed once again to family camping.

Genie is out the bottle, and I don't think we can put it back in.

Because Cub Scout camping is family camping, I see sisters camping and doing stuff all the time, and it is perfectly acceptible.

Only time I ever saw sisters being a problem in Cub Scouts was the first time my council ran a council level CS family camp out. The PTB, essentially BS leaders trying to get this ball rolling, A. could not understand why a pack with X number attending needed twice the space a troop the same size, and B. only took into planning the number of Cubs and not total youth.

IMHO, it takes years. Fred makes a good point about CS leaders burning out.

What I've done is start the process ASAP. One year, I had my Tigers doing a compass course in conjunction with Boy Scouts. When I had a den chief, I let him do a large part of the work. And when thee council has a joint CS BS camporee, I'll take my den to the common area, annd will even ''get lost'' and let the Cubs watch an event or 2.

And whille that is going on. Italk to the parents. I work on them about the differences between CS&BS.. Lots of campfire talk and cocoa.

In my troop growing up, new adults were on the committee for a year before being an AM. Gave them time to get acclimated.

It won't happen here due to the GSUSA, but I could see the Finnish model working (at least the one they had in 1995) in the USA easily.

Cub Scouts is co-ed

From 11-14 gender segregated. Girls work on the Girl Guide ranks, Boys work on the Boy Scout ranks.  I don'[t know what the differences in requirements are/ were,  But I think this was to keep each groups highest awards in place.

15-21 is co-ed again.

I haven't had nutria, so I can't comment on that. I do know that when one parish (what they call counties in LA) wanted to charge a nominal fee for an unrestricted nutria hunting license, I wanna say $5.00 and that basically covered the card and processing done by the sheriff, the animal rights folks went ape.The nutria were causing major damage to the parish's drainage system.

So, riddle me this Joker, where in the Eagle project book does it say the project needs to be completed?  Nowhere! 

Reminded me, where does it say the project has to be a "success?" Had an Eagle bust his butt doing a reforestation project. did everything by the US Forestry Service book.  Once he was finished, his reforestation project looked AWESOME.

However, 6 months to a year later, he visited the area and the nutria ate up everything. All that remained were the metal nutria guards built to USFS specs that were suppose to protect the saplings.

Seems like another good reason not to wait until the final months at age 17.

Why I recommend that as soon as they become Life, they start working on a project,  One of the first things I completed as a 13 year old Life Scout was plan my project. Completed it at 14, and had time to have a bunch of fun without worries until 18.

My biggest concern would how would the program be effected. While my time as a CS leader and family camping has lessened my concerns some about a coed program, I still have nightmares from the one trip my troop had as a youth that was a complete and utter failure because we had siblings and mothers in attendance.

Son' troop is going to Philmont.  Growing up, the city my troop was in had a twin city in Canada. It was worked out that a contingent from my district would go canoeing, with a few Canadian Scout guides, up in Canada. Sea Scout Ship did a cruise in the Gulf of Mexico.

A troop I was in had just come back from a backpacking expedition out west. I think Grand Canyon or Yellowstone. It was just before I joined the troop.

One folded crew did the Pamlico Sea Base in NC for a week long kayaking expedition.

One folded troop did a weeklong Appalachian Trail expedition

Suwannee reminded of a trip I did with a "hoods in da woods" I worked right after college. That trip was part of the training I went trhough.

HA can be found whereever your Scouts look.

Heard about 2 cases.

In one case the benefiting agency changed their mind after signing, but before any fundraising and work was done. Agency changed their mind due to liability issues. Scout was delayed about a month and able to get Eagle.

2nd case was more problematic. I do not know all of the details except the Scout screwed up so badly that the agency stopped him on day one of the 2 day project, and had to hire a contractor to fix the problem he made, as well as do his project. Agency now no longer allows ANY Eagle projects to be done for them any more, and they were the beneficiary of about 5 or 6 over the past 7-10 years prior to this.

Project was supposed to be finished days before turning 18. Appeal for an extension went to council, and possibly national, because once momma mentioned lawyers and a lawsuit, district committee no longer wanted to handle the situation ( not that they could do anything about it).

He got an extension, made a flagpole instead of the original project at a local school or park, and got his Eagle. Entire situation irked a lot of folks in and out of Scouting. Outside of Scouting we lost a community partner we were helping. Also they had enough of the Scout, accepted his unused supplies, and paid the unbudgeted expenses themselves which delayed other projects they were doing. My understanding was that it was a major fiasco and caused hardship for the agency.  Inside of Scouting, it ticked off leaders who were also on the board of the agency, ticked of some Scouts and leaders in other units who were planning on doing projects for the agency, and ticked off the advancement committee when momma threatened a lawsuit, despite their attempts to explain that they could not grant the extension and explain the process to getting one.

I admit I too was irked because the Scout didn't want to accept responsibility for his mistake, instead trying to make it seem as if he was the victim in all this.

In future years, we'll use whatever is in the version of the scout handbook that each boy happens to have.  If someone wants to use the new requirements, they can buy a new handbook. 

 

Whatever happened to 'No adding to or changing the requirements.'?  I see the needs for the changes, and like most of them; but could Irving have made the transition any more poorly?

Please do not do this It can have major repercussions.

...BSA changing the requirements creates a moving target for the scouts.  (i.e. what are the requirements I as a scout have to fulfill)   It would also take our troop down a path I just don't want us to go.  (i.e. adults tracking detailed requirements and auditing scout handbooks for which requirement set is taped into it.)  I absolutely would not want any of our scouts showing up at a rank BOR and being told he can't advance because he was using the wrong year of requirements.  Would that really be a scout failure if we tell the scout to depend on his handbook?

...

We had a troop use Joe Bob's approach, whatever book the Scout had, was the requirements he had to meet. Even when requirements changed minorly, they were ignored. No outside the troop realized this until the troop folded to join Trails Life. When one of their Scouts transferred to a new troop, and it was realized that he was using the pre-2009 11th ed. requirements for Life instead of the current requirements. It caused an appeal for an extension of POR and  Active requirements for Eagle since the delay in a Life BOR resulted in him not being able to meet the 6months as a Life POR.

Thankfully the PTB who make the decision on appeals, realized it was not the Scout's fault, and he is Eagle. He is currently an ASM with the troop, and an OA Chapter officer.

When I was a scout in the 1960s there was no DRP and no ban on gays.   This came about starting in the late 1970s ...

One reason for the ban was the troop a bunch of pedophiles started with the express intent of finding victims to molest. It was a troop in my home council, and was one of the reasons why my brothers didn't continue in Scouting after they moved. And my mom was extremely leery of getting involved in Scouts becasue of this troop and the uproar it caused.