BrentAllen

"Baden-Powell came to Gilwell frequently, sleeping out in a hammock at first and later in a caravan. 'As far as the eye can see beneath the trees - are tents and more tents' he observed enthusiastically. 'Among them half-naked men and boys are busy about the little nothings that go to make camp life so fully occupied. And everywhere the air is humming with the songs and whistling of happy lads.' A koodoo horn which Baden-Powell had acquired in Matabeleland was used to sound reveille; and whenever he was there, Stephe himself would blow it. If he wanted to impress a potential benefactor, he would bring him to Gilwell 'to see Scouting in action'. Each weekend anything between 50 and 500 boys would be encamped. Baden-Powell, by Tim Jeal Chapter 16, pg. 504 Hard to imagine those Scout patrols mentioned were camping the supposedly required 300 feet from each other. Gilwell park is only around 50 acres in size. This was not just camporees, but every weekend, and BP brought people out to see "Scouting in action." I take that to mean he approved of the camping style he saw.

BSA literature quotes it to Baden-Powell. One poster here will be quick to argue the point, though I don't know why. The phrase is very prominent in Fifth Edition (1957) Scoutmaster Handbook, which I believe was primarily authored by Bill Hillcourt. He worked closely with BP, so he most likely either heard it from BP, or coined it himself. You can source the quote to the SM Handbook, if you are afraid someone will give you a hard time about it. I can't imagine why anyone would.

If a Scout can't find the time to excercise more than once a month, how would he ever have time for Scouting? How much time does it take to work on push-ups and sit-ups? A Scout could work on all 5 excercises in the Tenderfoot requirement easily in 20 - 30 minutes, and he only needs to do this every other day. If used correctly, this requirement is a great opportunity to get a boy who isn't in good shape to make regular physical excercise a part of his life, to make this part of a lifestyle change. If a Scout just goes through the motions for 30 days and gets a check-off, what has been accomplished? Being physically fit is part of our Oath, right?

Now I remember why I stopped coming here... Is arguing about what regular means really being helpful? Is coaching a boy that excercising once a year is a good health habit? If not, then why waste time and energy even discussing it? Good grief!

We are taking this requirement and building it into part of our regular troop program, as part of our Honor Patrol competition. Once a quarter, the patrols will compete on these very excercises. Points are awarded as follows: Sit-ups in two minutes - 1 point Push-ups - 3 points Pull-ups - 10 points Standing long jumep - 4 points per foot 1/4 mile run - 1 point for each second under 2 1/2 minutes The individual overall winner will receive the Iron Scout award to hold until the next quarterly competition, and any Scout who can beat the SM gets treated at Brusters - that helps keep me in shape! We have our very first High Adventure trip planned for the summer of 2009 to Northern Tier. We watched that segment on the High Adventure DVD so the boys could see what they are in for. I used the analogy of High Adventure being the Super Bowl of Scouting. Just like a football team, we train year round for the big event. Every campout is like a game in the season, where we try to get better, learn from our mistakes and increase our skills. When the Super Bowl comes, you want to be at the top of your game, be the best you can be, because you are going to need all those skills to have a great trek. Being physically fit is a huge part of being prepared, and we can start taking care of that part of the game right now. Some of our stronger boys (all our boys are 5th and 6th graders) can do 40 - 50 sit-ups, a dozen push ups, only a couple of pull-ups and jump 4 + feet. They run the 1/4 mile between 1 1/2 - 2 minutes. On the other end, we have one boy who can't do a single sit-up, push-up or pull-up. He can't jump over 3 feet, and it took him 3:08 to run the 1/4. He is not overweight, and he takes martial arts and plays soccer. He is always the last in anything the troop does - setting up or taking down his tent, packing up at the end of a campout, hiking, cleaning up, etc. Our goal is for his patrol mates to work with him to get him in shape so that he won't be so far off from the rest of the boys. He needs to get in shape or he will always be the anchor of the troop on our hikes and backpacking trips. My only concern is that since I didn't meet either BP or Greenbar Bill face to face, I'm not sure if this competition is considered Parlour Scouting, Troop Method Scouting, or if the patrols should be 300 feet apart from each other when competing. The boys sure enjoy the competition, regardless. ;^)

If the pilling really gets bad, you can take a shaving razor and actually shave them off. Just get the material on a solid flat surface and hold it tight, so it doesn't buckle up. It might take several passes with the razor to get the job done. My son's pants were pilling on the front and I had them looking good as new in about 10 minutes. I used the Gillette Sensor two-blade heads, but I think either the single blade or three-blade heads would work fine. No, I did not use shaving cream. :-)

If you don't like the quality of the training or testing at the district or council level, you can always supplement it at the unit level. I think the training available in our district and council is pretty good, but as was mentioned, there isn't much time for individual instruction or testing. Seeing that as a potential weakness, and recognizing how important it is for the SM (me) and our ASMs to be properly trained, I am copying a system used by one of our more successful troops. To be an ASM, the candidate must attend all basic training. He/she will then complete the skills requirements for T-FC, which they need to know if they are going to supervise the older boys teaching the newer Scouts. The only other requirements I am adding are they must also be trained in CPR/AED, Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat . As our young troop gets a little larger, I will probably add First Aid to that requirement. Skills to be learned to be an ASM: T 1. Present yourself properly dressed and packed for a camping trip. T 2. Spend one night on campout in tent you helped pitch T 3. Help cook and clean up for a meal on campout T 4. Whip and fuse end of rope T 5. Tie two half hitches and taut-line hitch, and tell when they are used. T 6. Demonstrate how to display, raise, lower and fold flag. T 7. Repeat from memory Scout Oath, Law, motto, slogan. T 9. Explain importance of buddy system T 11. Identify local poisonous plants, tell how to treat for exposure to them. T 12. Demonstrate care for choking T 12b. Show first aid for the following: see list 2C 1. Compass and map work 2C 2. 5 mile hike with compass 2C 2a. Participate in 5 troop activities 2C 2b. Select camping site 2C 2c. Knife, ax, saw use 2C 2d. Use tools to prepare tinder, kindling, fuel 2C 2e. Discuss use of cooking fire and light-weight stove 2C 2f. Demonstrate how to light fire and stove 2C 2g. Cook one meal over on open fire 2C 4. Participate in service project 2C 5. Identify 10 kinds of wild animals found in community 2C 6a. Hurry case for stopped breathing, serious bleeding, ingested poison 2C 6b. Prepare personal first aid kit 2C 6c. Demonstrate first aid for following: 2C 7a. Precautions for safe swim 2C 7b. BSA swim test 2C 7c. Demonstrate water rescue methods 2C 8a. Participate in program on dangers of drugs, alcohol, tobacco 2C 8b. Explain 3 R's of personal safety 1C 1. Demonstrate how to find direction during day and night without compass 1C 2. 1 mile compass course 1C 4a. Plan a menu for campout. Discuss food pyramid. 1C 4b. Make a list showing cost and amounts. 1C 4c. Pans, utensils, other gear 1C 4d. Explain safe handling and storage of food 1C 5. Visit with public official 1C 6. Identify 10 kinds of native plants 1C. 7. Discuss lashings 1C 7b. Demonstrate timber hitch, clove hitch, different lashings. 1C 7c. Lash together a useful camp gadget 1C 8a. Demonstrate bowline 1C 8b. Bandages for sprained ankle, other injuries 1C 8c. Show how to transport from smoke-filled room, sprained ankle. 1C 8d. 5 signs of heart attack, CPR 1C 9a. Safety Afloat 1C 9b. Swim test 1C 9c. Line rescue Some of these requirements the ASM-in-training will complete by attending with the boys (drug program, visit with public official). It will probably take about 6 months to complete all the requirements. I'm not asking the ASMs to do anything I haven't done myself. We currently have 2 ASMs-in-training, and we are having a lot of fun with the program. They enjoy learning the skills, just like the boys do. This also gives me and the other leaders plenty of time to see if the ASM-I-Ts are good at working with the boys, or would it be better for them to serve on the committee. Some of the requirements, like the cooking, are more about showing the leader what equipment the patrols have available and how they operate - not to see if he can cook a meal. They need to see how the patrols plan for, buy for and prepare for their meals. Contrast this with a troop where a father walks in, signs up his son, is asked if he wants to be an ASM, fills out a registration form and is given a patch. The boys don't know the difference - they just see an adult in a uniform and think they know what they are doing. Between the two methods above, which troop would you be more comfortable sending your son off on a camping trip with?

Well, not related to the first post, but under the title of the thread... On last summer's course, one of the patrols did a Top Ten Ways To Tell If You Are A Woodbadger skit. One of my favorite lines was: "When you notice your shoe laces are untied, the first thought that pops into your mind is "I could woggle that." I guess you had to be there...

It's Me, Glad to hear you had such a good time! You are making me want to go back! Two local troops went down in February for President's weekend, and caught a lot of rain. Even so, they still had a good time. That is truly one of the most beautiful places on the planet. There aren't many books on the subject of Cumberland Island history, but I picked up one on our last trip down - Cumberland Island, A History by Mary R. Bullard. She is one of the descendants of Thomas Carnegie. It is very interesting - you'd be surprised to know how much has happened on that little island! Part of the scary history is our elected State officials tried many times to get their hands on it for development - they thought it would make another nice Jekyll Island. If you haven't been there, don't bother. The "developers" absolutely ruined it. The other scary part of history is the developer who created Hilton Head bought a bunch of land on the island, hoping to have a causeway built and turn it into another Hilton Head or Amelia Island. Think high rise condos and hotels instead of all those live oaks and palmettos. Luckily it ended up in the right hands and is now protected. Even my wife, a Holiday Inn camper, loves Cumberland Island - she hasn't seen any of the snakes yet, only the horses, deer and armadillos!

Tne only real bad experience I have heard of involved a Scouter with high blood pressure. He couldn't get his BP down, and wasn't allowed to go on the trek. A 19 year old shouldn't have trouble with that, hopefully. Had a camp staffer tell us he saw a Scout carrying a Dutch oven on a Philmont trek, with it swinging from the bottom of his pack. I would find that hard to believe, but I've seen a Scout carrying a huge 8 D-cell lantern on a backpacking trip. I would suggest your son visit some of the online backpacking sources and do a little reading about equipment and techniques, as well as make the shake-downs. http://www.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi http://www.practicalbackpacking.com/forums/

T164SM, I've stopped visiting this page for the exact reasons you mentioned. I go to church on Sunday to receive my preaching, and my pastor is a lot more friendly. It stopped being fun, so I stopped coming here. As you mentioned, there are a lot of ways to run a Troop, some clearly described by the BSA, others aren't. For the sake of those visiting this page, I wish those who stray from the BSA methods amd model would just admit it. I'll start with Adult Patrols. The BSA is mum on the subject - they don't mention it in any of their training or program materials, AFAIK. They aren't prohibited, and they aren't described. There isn't any outline for how to run them. We use it because I need a team to help supervise the troop - a team, not a loose group of parents. The Adult Patrol is the mechanism that allows us to build that team, to build camaraderie, to build consensus, to teach new parents the Patrol Method. The parents are the same as the boys - if they aren't having fun, they aren't going to come help out. Hopefully someone new to Scouting can read this and understand it is not part of the official program, that it isn't required, but it also isn't prohibited, and they can see the reasons why we use it. If the Adult Patrol was prohibited, or we were running it in a way contrary to BSA outlines, I should acknowledge that. Compare this to some who say Patrols can go on their own campouts without getting SM approval. The BSA is clear on this (page 22, SM HB). If a poster's troop doesn't follow this procedure, the poster should mention that, so those who are new here will see they are going outside the program. A simple disclaimer would be "This is not how the BSA teaches to handle this, but we don't require Patrols to get SM approval for their own hikes or campouts. We feel it takes away responsibility from the PL's." Simple enough, I would think. Good luck, T164SM. Back to my more pressing duties.

As we all know, there are many ways to run a troop. Because of this, we end up with very different Eagle Scouts at the end of the day. To me, these Eagle Scouts are walking billboards for the troops they came from. Last summer, our previous troop had an 18 year old Eagle Scout attend camp, as an adult. During a conversation about knots, he admitted he couldn't tie anything beyond a square knot. On an earlier campout, I saw him try to cook a frozen pizza in a frying pan over flames in a fire, which of course just burned the bottom. I wondered how in the world did this guy earn Eagle with such poor outdoor skills? Well, he got all the signatures and passed all the requirements, so he got his award. And on Thursday of Summer Camp, he got sent home for taking candy from a Scout and getting into a fight. Is this what I envision as the best of the best of the Boy Scouts of America? NO!! Is this Eagle an accurate reflection of the program he came from? Yes. Would you want to send your son to this troop? Only you can answer that question; it wasn't for us. I came out of a troop that demanded a lot of us. Were we pushed beyond the requirements? Probably. Did we mind? No. I would hope all of the adults in our troop know what we are trying to accomplish in our troop, and not just accept the bare minimum. This would go against the strict deinition as outlined by the BSA and Bobwhite, but I would hope our adults would not pass a Scout who will not answer BOR questions articulately. I don't see how they can make any determination about the Scout if he doesn't give them any information. If a Scout failed a BOR and wanted to play legal games with us, I would strongly suggest he find another troop. Let's face it, we are competing with other troops for the boys in our communities. We want our reputation to draw the families that are looking for a challenging program, that want their son to be challenged to do his best. We aren't really interested in attracting those families that are looking for the easiest path to Eagle, or worse, the Baby Sitters of America. They can go elsewhere.

For a backpack, check out Alps Mountaineering (www.alpsmountaineering.com). They have several packs in kid sizes. The Denali has been popular with our boys. They offer different size waist belts that are interchangeable, so the pack can grow with your son. The packs retail for around $150.00. Once you find the pack you want, go to www.scoutdirect.com and order the same pack with a 45% Scout discount. You will be hard-pressed to find a similar quality pack for anywhere near the price. We have also been very pleased with their tents. Same discout applies to all their gear. If you would like more testimonials from Scouts, check them out on the scoutdirect page, along with photos from Scouts using the equipment. You will see it is used everywhere, from Philmont to Double H to the Shenandoah mountains. Be sure to register on the scoutdirect page, and you will receive emails about other special sales they have a few times each year.

Buffalo, Your situation sounds a little similar to mine. I was CM for a Pack with around 130 boys, chartered by our elementary school PTA (no troop). Of 11 boys in my son's den, 2 joined one troop and the other 9, including my son, joined another. We soon found the troop was much different than we thought, and was not providing the Scouting experience we wanted for our sons. The Baptist church wanted a troop, and 6 of the boys left to start a troop there. CO has been fantastic, better than I hoped. We have the same troop number as the pack (where I'm now the COR). The next group of Webelos II's are going to cross over in March, and we will get 6 - 10 of them. Most challenging part was really just taking that first real step. Get real committments from the parents that are going to help you. Pencil out your adult leadership - SM, ASMs, CC, ADV, Membership. Does it look workable? If so, move forward. As mentioned earlier, get trained - asap! The program is much different than Cubs, and you need to get up to speed quickly. If a training session isn't offered very soon, go purchase a copy of the SM Handbook and start reading and taking notes. While at the Scout Shop, pick up a set of the Troop Program Features, volumes I - III and a copy of the Troop/Team Record Book. Get all leaders to complete the on-line training asap. Plan that first campout. Select the date and location and get it planned. The rest of your team will follow along. They will be eager to see a plan develop, to see that someone is really in charge, and is going to make this troop really happen. Plan to have a campout every month. If your pack was used to camping twice a year, this can be a challenge at first. Get some ideas from the boys about what they want to do, and get 3 months planned. Don't worry about planning the whole year at this point, worry about the first quarter. Put together a calendar showing troop meetings and campouts. If you are starting now, you need to move quickly on Summer Camp. Our main camp is almost full. Merit Badge and activity registration starts the first of April. Talk to your DE and see if they can hold a spot for you. Missing Summer Camp your first year would be a big mistake, IMHO. Yes, it takes a lot of work. Work is the easy part. It also takes a vision. Do you have a vision of what you want this troop to look like in 6 months, 1 year, 2 years? If you don't have that vision, I would suggest joining one of the other troops. Good luck with either of your decisions. Brent Allen

"How quickly did you advance as a Scout?" Interesting question. I still have my one and only Scout Handbook, with all the ranks and dates. Scout - 7/24/74 (11 years old) Tenderfoot - 10/8/74 Second Class - 3/18/75 First Class - 11/14/75 Star - 4/6/76 Life - 6/21/77

See what happened to Bob White when he didn't complete his ticket! :-) http://www.scoutingnews.org/2007/12/29/if-you-dont-complete-your-ticket/

Sure, dual-registered. ASM for the troop, VA for Crew. Read back through the posts, it is very clear.

"I guess I don't feel it necessary to justify myself to individuals on the forum. If that remains a problem for others, feel free to skip over my posts." That's it?? That's all you have to say?? Well, after reading your posts for the past year or so heaping praise on your boy-led patrol-method troop, and seeing them all directly contradicted by your admission that it was very adult run, and no further explanation given, I can only assume you have not been honest. All I can to that is a Scout is Trustworthy. He tells the truth. January, 2008 posts: "I just left a troop that was 35 on the books, 25 active and was totally adult-led. Go figure. :^)" "I came from an adult-led troop that was able to define what the VP was to be." January - March, 2007 posts: "My SPL is 14. He runs the troop and is PL of the honor's patrol." "Well, word got around that we were THE troop to join. Now our membership in the past 2 years has quadrupled and we have 4 full/active patrols and are overwhelmed with trying to maintain the high level of program we have enjoyed for so long with our "little" troop." "In our troop, the SPL is the leader of the leaders. He is not head program honcho. He does not lead the meetings, nor does he run the show. He coordinates other leaders. Each patrol in the troop is to be prepared to run the meeting with a flag ceremony, a training time, game time, and closing ceremony. The topic is up to them. They have to be ready when asked by the SPL to step up to the plate." And, finally: "I try to get as much responsibility and authority into the hands of the boys as possible. At that age they can handle a group of about 8 people with their leadership skills. They can experiment, try, suceed and fail with little or no serious consequences to the overall program of the troop. If they suceed, they become a great lead by example patrol for others to learn from. If they fail, the PLC and other more skilled scouts can offer suggestions, assistance, encouragement, etc. but the ultimate success of the patrol has to constantly be pushed back into the patrols. If they don't get back on their horse after being thrown, the leadership lesson will be lost to that patrol. Every time an adult steps in and corrects, directs, mandates, issues ultimatums, etc. they are basically telling the boys they are not leading, they can't lead, and somebody has to step up to the plate and it isn't going to be the boys. I see this constantly among the troop-led or adult-led units. And thus the ownership of the patrol is lost and the interest and growth won't happen. The #1 responsbility of the PLC and adults is to make sure the patrols are independent, confident, trained, encouraged, and celebrated in their accomplishments. This is what the patrol-method is all about. If the patrol is not #1 in the program, then it's not the patrol-method in my book at least. And anyway, that's how we operate and it works great and if it ain't broken, we don't intend to fix it." I think I have a pretty clear understanding now.

Barry, I have no idea how you come up with your conclusions about what Bob posted. He never said he was developing the Venture Crew to take ALL the 14 y/o and older Scouts. Please tell me how YOU arrived at that conclusion.

jblake wrote ">> 2. When does a PL earn the right to over-ride the SM, SPL, and PLC? About the same time a child has earned the right to over-ride their parent, teacher and pastor." That sure appears to conflict with what you posted earlier. "But no, troops do not trump patrols unless you are interested in driving out the older boys." "If the SM and troop "trump" patrol decisions, then the patrols in reality don't have any deciding powers at all." "The boys are responsbile, but they have no final authority? Requiring SM approval DOES indeed make it an adult-led unit."

jblake posted "I just left a troop that was 35 on the books, 25 active and was totally adult-led. Go figure. :^)" Now I'm really confused. You've been posting for the past year about how strong your troop was, how boy-led it was, how strong in patrol-method it was, and now you say it was totally adult-led? What gives?

"When we adults are in camp as Scouters to the youth, we should be far off to one side, far enough from the youth that they have freedom to do the Grand Game, and close enough that we can provide resources if asked." I agree, the adult patrol camps away from the boys, but they camp as a patrol. When that new PL is having a bad day at camp, with chaos at his patrol site - boys not working together, goofing off instead of preparing meals, arguing over who is supposed to do what - the SM or ASM can have a conference with him at the adult patrol site and let him see how things can be done, what he should be striving for. For a new PL or even a group of new Scouts that have never seen how a patrol should operate at camp, the adult patrol is a great opportunity to model. We adults don't compete against the boys in the knot tying relays or lashing games or other patrol competitions. We are usually too busy being the judges and referees and photographers. We do fall in at opening ceremonies and we do exhibit as much patrol spirit as we can. We teach our new members and guests (new dads) some of the T21 skills, which most are happy to learn. We have a duty roster and everyone splits up the jobs. This helps the new dads see and learn what is expected of his son in his patrol. Plus it keeps the new dads busy and out of the boys' patrols. When that older Scout turns 18 and stays involved with the troop, a special ceremony is held when he graduates into the adult patrol. This changing of patrols helps everyone with this transition. The 18 y/o sees he is expected to camp with and act like the adults. The Scouts see him as a member of that group, and not as one of their own anymore. I've seen some real problems when this distinction isn't recognized by everyone.

Our CO, a Baptist church, gave us $600 as seed money, provided us a place to meet, and bought us a new troop flag (about $200). They are fixing up an equipment trailer for us to haul gear on campouts. At the end of the year, one member made a pretty large donation to the church, and earmarked $3,000 for the troop. Another donated $300. We don't need that much money, but it is nice to have as a cushion. We will be able to provide scholarships to Scouts who might be in need. Two of the boys crossing into our troop in March each sold over $3,500 in popcorn this year, so I don't think we are going to be hurting for funds any time soon.

"100 boys? 1 SM 4 ASM and a committee of 5 = 10 adults 1 for each 10 boys. Not a bad ratio. " Uh, if each boy advances only 1 rank per year, that is 8 BORs per month, every month, for the 5 committee members. If half the boys advance 2 ranks in a year, that is 150 BORs in a year, or 12-13 per month. Now, add in all the SM reviews. I think I'd be looking for another troop.

"That is not practical in our area because we have 33 packs that feed our 20 troops." My question would be, where is your District Membership Vice-Chair and DE? Our goal is to have an affiliated troop for each pack. I'm surprised your District leadership isn't working towards a similar goal. "See, part of the problem is dens make plans a year or two ahead time. When they hear one troop is full, they don't even bother to visit." Are you serious? One year ahead? Two years ahead?? That I would like to see! I'm not sure this would limit troop size, but I suspet it will. We let potential Scouts know what we expect of them before they join. Joining Scouts is a committment, to their patrol and to their troop. We expect them to attend the meetings and campouts. We expect them to wear the complete, correct uniform. We expect them to participate in other activities outside of Scouts. We are not interested in part-time Scouts - those who just want to show up when they feel like it. If they are going to miss a meeting or activity, they are expected to call their PL and let him know why he is missing. Based on attendance I've seen at some troops, I suspect we will not be the largest troop in the district, and that is fine with me.