BrentAllen

Well, you know what we say here in the South. If at first you don't secede, try, try again. :-) Brent Prayer - is it your steering wheel or your spare tire?

So... do your thoughts apply to moms only, and not dads? Are you saying anyone (moms or dads) with children should stay home and raise them? For how long? Until what age? Are moms the only ones that teach our offspring our ideals? Where do dads fit in?

When we started the Troop a year ago, we inherited 4 wooden Patrol boxes, along with a trailer to store and haul them. We have used them twice so far - at the District Camporee and at Summer Camp (where we cooked our own meals). There are times for heavy camping, and times for light camping. I personally prefer light camping, and backpacking, but not all the boys do. Some of them really enjoy learning how to cook, more so than just warming food or boiling water. So we find ways to do little of both throughout the year. I don't see this as a "right or wrong" issue, just different types of camping. Brent Prayer - is it your steering wheel or your spare tire?

I've been on a course where at the end of the game, one of the participants said "you should have explained how this all worked, so we could have played the game better." One of the other participants replied, "But then we wouldn't have learned the real lesson." Most of the other participants agreed. There is a world of difference between shrouding the course in secrecy, and explaining every detail. I haven't seen the Scout Shop stocking the syllabus or the participant notebook on the shelves. Some lessons are much more powerful when experienced through discovery. The lesson of this game is one of them. I hate moderating or editing on message boards, but I would be happy to see this thread disappear as well.

Chippewa, We have a quarterly Honor Patrol competition, with points earned for attendance (meetings and campouts),uniforming, and patrol competitions. We let the winning patrol choose the prize, which is usually a Friday night involving a visit to Mellow Mushroom, Bruesters Ice Cream, and a lock-in at the church, watching movies all night or playing video games. They might choose a special trip for whitewater rafting or something else they really want to do. Whatever the prize, I suggest it be something they can get really excited about. Our patrols push the uniforming - I don't have to say a word. Some are even to the point of bringning an extra belt or socks in case a member of their patrol doesn't have them. For the competition, we just started requiring they bring their Scout book to be considered in full uniform. When boys join our troop, I let them and their parents know up front that the Scout has an obligation to his patrol and troop to attend the meetings and campouts. When he doesn't show, he is leaving his patrol a man short. I also let them know I expect them to participate in other activities outside of Scouting. This is going to create some conflicts, which the Scout will have to resolve. This is part of life, and there aren't any easy answers. We let them know all the expectations of the Troop up front, so there aren't any surprises down the road. Our goal isn't to be the largest troop in the area; I'm much more interested in quality than quantity. For those older Scouts, I would suggest a SM conference with some goal setting. Have them bring their handbook and go over the requirements they are short for their next rank. Have them write in the date they plan to have those requirements completed. Do you have a High Adventure trip planned in the future, something they can really look forward to? Do they need to practice any skills in order to be ready for the trip? If so, get them working on those. Are they involved with OA? If not, that might be something to spark their interest. If they see they need to get elected by the Troop, they might start showing up and helping out more, instead of causing trouble. HTH. Good luck.

Cub Scouts - October, 2003 Boy Scouts - March, 2007

He's the read deal. He still goes to Roundtable, still attends Summer Camp. I knew he was getting up there in age, but to be honest, I had no idea he was 86. I hope I'm kicking that hard when I'm 86!

Josiah Benator is a SM in our District. The following article ran in today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/living/stories/2008/08/20/real_living_scouts.html This being Wednesday, Josiah Benator and his band of boys will gather today at Congregation Or VeShalom for their weekly meeting. For about an hour, he will supervise them as they work on projects to earn merit badges and, perhaps, plan their next hiking event. Its been the same story for the past 65 years, at least for Benator, who has helped shape hundreds, some say thousands, of young boys into men. You might guess his passion just by looking at his clothes: olive pants and shirt bearing scout pens and badges, and gold tie with an Eagle clasp. Josiah Benator is a scoutmaster and, no offense, a very old one at that. But he is an 86-year-old with the vigor of a man in his 30s. He can hike over five miles without breaking a sweat and rappel a 60-foot tower with a ready smile. But nothing makes him smile like the boys in Troop 73. He and his wife, Birdie, live on a quiet street in northeast Atlanta. Theyre both retired from their jobs, but not from scouting. Actually, they may never retire from scouting because its Josiahs one true calling. He knows what scouting can mean in the life of a boy because he knows what it meant in his own. Thats why hes stayed with it so long. If you want to teach a boy to appreciate the outdoors, the value of community, to be a good citizen, scouting is how you do it, he said. Benator was 12 when he first joined the organization in 1934. Scouting was considered one of the great youth programs of the time. It was also a diversion from the worlds troubles the depression and a mortgage meltdown not much different from todays. A member of Troop 52, young Josiah embraced the great outdoors, hiking along the Chattahoochee River, catching the trolley car to Stone Mountain and hiking some more. He learned to tie a knot and read a compass the same way he honed his leadership skills, with gusto, serving as a junior assistant scoutmaster, assistant scoutmaster and acting scoutmaster for Troop 27. After graduating with honors from Georgia Tech in 1943, he enrolled in officer candidate school and, shortly after, went before the Scouting board of review and did what any dedicated scout would do. He got his Eagle. That same year he went off to war, serving three and a half years with the 10th Armored Division in the Battle of Bastogne. He returned stateside in 1946 and went to work for Scripto as a materials manager. He married Birdie the following year and the two of them raised seven children. Without fail, he credits Birdie for making his life of scouting possible. She took care of the home while he went hiking and camping with the boys. Every February, she sponsors a Kiddush celebrating his birthday and anniversary in scouting at the synagogue. The grandfather of 13 estimates that hes lorded over thousands of scouts the last six decades and hed done so while serving his community and synagogue as President of Congregation Or VeShalom, president of the DeKalb Grand Jurors Association, President of the Sheffield Civic Club and co-captain of the neighborhood watch. Last year, the Atlanta Area Council of Boy Scouts of America, dedicated the 2007 Eagle Scout Class to Mr. B. It was like going to a baseball convention and Willie Mays had just walked into the room, said Jack Arogeti, a former Cub Scout and President of Congregation Or VeShalom. His accomplishments and service to scouting were well known, highly regarded and everyone could see he played the game because he loved the game, and he believed in the game, and he was a microcosm of the game. Mays left the game years ago, but Mr. B is still playing, still scoutmaster of Troop 73. Rabbi Hayyim Kassorla called him a living legend, a walking example of what it means to be walking in the footsteps of the Lord. Just as the Lord teaches, he said, Josiah does the same. Hear. Hear.

Yes, use common sense. Leaving your shirt untucked is a welcome invitation to chiggers to attack your mid-section. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/EDISImagePage?imageID=1544709552&dlNumber=IG085&tag=FIGURE%202&credits=Jerry%20F.%20Butler,%20University%20of%20Florida

***** thread hijack****** My daughter just got back in to Girl Scouts in 4th grade. I was surprised to see the American Flag is optional on their uniform. In fact, the national web page doesn't even show the flag on their display. Luckily our local Girl Scout shop had a display showing the location. What's up with that? http://www.girlscouts.org/program/gs_central/insignia/where_to_place/junior/ ****** end thread hijack*******

OK, so if the boys in Its Me's Troop decide they want to go with a Troop method system instead of Patrol Method, he should let them do their own thing so it will be boy-run, boy lead. If he or the other adults step in and try to correct it, they can't do that without becoming (que loud ominous music clip) an adult-lead troop. At the risk of being labeled (que loud ominous music clip) an adult-lead troop, I think we'll stick with the BSA boy-lead, patrol-method program.

He-he, from my rich, white, conservative neighborhood, we have two Hindus in our troop, so no beef or pork on the menu. We also have Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians and Presbyterians. All in a Troop of 12 boys - which is chartered by a Baptist Church. Oh, we also have single-parent families as well. Almost forgot, the chinese vegetable soup one our boys (who happens to be Chinese) cooked at summer camp didn't go over very well. "Suburban white thing?" I'll buy the suburban part.

The old would have to be just about free to get me to look at them over the new. I just bought the new supplex nylon shirt - I think I am going to like it a lot here in the humid south. It is a heavier material than the Action shirt, so it should hold the badges and patches ok, but hopefully not so heavy as to be hot. I wouldn't buy the old socks for anything (talking about the old cotton, except for the knee-highs). The new socks are a blend that should be good for camping and hiking. All of our old cotton socks are going in the rag bag! The new belt and buckle are such an improvement over the old, there simply isn't any comparison!

["In fact, if they are as autonomous as you say, they don't even need a troop! Why don't they just each become their own troop?" Wouldn't it be rather stupid to have a SM, CC Committee, and CO for every 8 boys in scouting? It is a little more feasible to consolidate some of these issues.] I don't know - would it? The same 5 adults could serve all the different troops. Then they wouldn't have to all meet at the same time for troop meetings, right? This solution would take care of all the problems you mentioned you had at summer camp. If they are all doing their own thing, I'm guessing each patrol is already securing their own Tour Permits and arranging their own transportaion to campouts. In the model you describe, why does each patrol need to be a part of the troop? ["This includes understanding the vision of the SM and passing it along to the PLs." This comment indicates the root of a truly adult-led approach. And if I were passing on my vision to the PL's I'd surely wouldn't need an SPL to do it unless I was trying to give the process a sense of boy-led propriety. I don't need an SPL to do my bidding.] This comment indicates to me a lack of understanding of a boy-run, patrol method troop. Providing a vision does not affect the actual running of the troop - the boys still run the program. But if they get off track, the SM/SPL are there to get them back on. If you have 11 year-old PLs who can form and explain a vision of where they want their patrols to be in a few years, and detail how they are going to get there, more power to you. My experience has been Scouts that age have a hard enough time planning their menu for the next camping trip and putting together a duty roster.

The council steps in to break up a troop? I've never heard of that. The largest troop and pack in our district are chartered by the same church. The pack is around 170 boys and the troop is around 100. Stosh, did you see my post to you at the bottom of page 3?

If you don't need an SPL with 3 patrols, then why do you need one with 6 or more patrols? If the patrols are as truly autonomous as you suggest, they wouldn't ever need anyone else to supervise them. In fact, if they are as autonomous as you say, they don't even need a troop! Why don't they just each become their own troop? IMO, due to your structure, you will be missing out on a great part of Scouting - the special relationship between the SM and the SPL. In the traditional BSA model, the SPL works closely with the SM to deliver the program to the troop through the PLs. This includes understanding the vision of the SM and passing it along to the PLs. When an SPL is correctly trained (just as a PL is correctly trained), he will not micromanage the patrols, nor do the other things you mention. Tell me why your PLs can be trained to perform their jobs correctly, but an SPL can't?

Ye, 16 year-olds don't want to hang out with 11 year-olds very often. In the old WB Course, once the patrols had gotten to know each other and bonded, the SM and SPL would get into an argument about how the course was going. The SM argued things were going very badly, and the only way to correct it was to re-align the patrols. So he tells everyone to line up in a single-file line and count off 1 - 8, with all the 1's going into the new Beaver Patrol. The participants didn't care for this, and some would threaten to leave if they were shuffled. The point was to teach how the boys would feel if the same was done to them. I don't have your dilema, as all our boys are first and second year Scouts. I am considering following the advice of an old seasoned SM, who would pull the Scout out of the patrol once he had served as PL. His theory is once the Scout had held that position, he didn't really want to have to serve under another PL, who may be younger and lower rank than him. I think he used a JLC for the PLs that moved out of the patrols. Being that we are young and small, I will try to encourage the PLs to serve two terms (1 year), if they can get elected twice, before moving them out. Once we get a little larger and older, we may also require they be 14 and 1st Class before moving out. These are issues I plan on discussing with 4 mentors, and see if we can come up with a workable plan. The older Scouts with the Green Bar training should make excellent SPLs, ASPLs, Troop Guides, QMs, etc. Whether you call it a JLC or Venture Patrol, I would let them stay together, but ask them to provide leadership to the patrols and troop. We don't use NSPs or age-based patrols. We like the idea of the slightly older Scouts teaching the new Scouts in their patrols. I'm afraid if you force those older Scouts into patrols with the younger boys, you are going to lose them.

We've visited Raccoon Mountain several times. It is a lot of fun! It is also fairly wet, with a stream running through one section of it. They provide helmets, lights, gloves and knee pads. They don't provide elbow pads, which some people like to use. I don't think most people miss them. I would caution against trying to take a camera on the wild tour. I had a small waist pack to carry a very small camera, and I wasn't sure if the camera would make it back out in one piece! I had to take the waist pack off and push is ahead of me several times - it is that tight. The cave feels cool at first, but once you get moving on the tour, you heat up pretty quickly (lots of humidity, lots of sweating). Some people wear a long sleeve t-shirt, others a long sleeve sweat shirt - either will work, just make sure everyone wears long sleeves. Take large plastic bags to carry all muddy clothing in. Leave clean shoes in the vehicles, and have everyone change back to the clean shoes just before getting in the vehicles to head home. You may need another plastic bag for the muddy shoes/boots. Don't let the boys go caving in worn out tennis shoes. Slick bottom shoes can be dangerous in a muddy cave.

Easy there, Kudu. In the interest of full disclosure, the Dining Hall at Woodruff is not air-conditioned. :-) We had two options for patrol-cooking at Woodruff - cook their food, or take our own. We chose to take our own. This presented a whole new opportunity for learning - how to keep a week's worth of food cold, using only our coolers (no refrigeration or freezer available). We all learned how well dry ice works, when used properly. The camp did offer us free regular ice; we just had to haul it from the Dining Hall. They did give us a discount on the camp fee, around $35 per Scout. At the end of the week, we ended up with a good bit of food left over, mainly lunch meats. We'll know better next year. Our first year campers all had to be at Mountain Man (T-FC program) at 8:30 am, which was a good 15 - 20 minutes away. We had reveillee at 6:45, cooking started no later than 7:00 am. Meds distributed at 7:45. Our in-camp flag ceremony was at 7:55 am. One patrol had flag duty, the other had latrine duty, and they switched each day. The SPL and SM (me) had to be at our respective meetings at 8:15, which meant leaving camp at 8:00. I asked the older Scouts not to schedule an 8:30 class, so they could help with clean-up and other camp duties. They still had the opportunity to schedule 3 MB classes before lunch, and one afterwards. Even with all those classes, we still had time for a Troop rifle shoot, mountain bike ride, canoe over-nighter across the lake, and archery shoot (and the whitewater rafting trip, or course). The boys have all agreed they want to cook in camp again next year. They actually enjoy it, and like being in camp with more free time, rather than eating in the crowded Dining Hall. They still aren't crazy about clean-up, but they know how to get it done. I was very proud of how clean they kept camp. I thought this would be our worst problem, but it turned out to be a non-issue. The PLs and the boys deserve all the credit - I didn't have to say much of anything to them about it. Kudu, I haven't been to Camp Thunder yet, but I hear they run a pretty good camp, and have a very good canoeing program. We may be heading down there early next year for some canoeing, in preparation for our NT trip in 2009. Hope your time here in Georgia is enjoyable!

Union County, SD recently voted for zoning change that would allow a refinery to be built there. If you want to see all the issues they face, read the following article: http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2008/06/04/news/top/4e608d46402d5adb8625745e00110beb.txt Union County approves zoning ordinance for Hyperion By Dave Dreeszen Journal business editor ELK POINT, S.D. -- Flashing a smile, Joyce Bortscheller briefly hugged Hyperion Energy Center executive Preston Phillips as she greeted him in the backyard of her home here. Bortscheller, president of the Elk Point City Council, had invited about 250 supporters to an outdoor barbecue Tuesday to await the returns for arguably the most important election in Union County's history. The big crowd didn't leave disappointed. As midnight approached, they popped the champagne corks, celebrating a hard-fought victory that keeps alive the county's chances of landing the nation's first all-new oil refinery in 32 years. By a solid 58 percent to 42 percent margin, county voters approved Hyperion's request to rezone 3,292 acres of farm land for a new classification, Energy Center Planned Development. "What happened tonight, we were not supposed to be able to do," Phillips told a cheering audience. "Development projects like this are supposed to be outright rejected by residents and neighbors. But this project is a testament to our balancing the needs for growth and for protecting the environment." At stake was billions of dollars in capital investment and thousands of high-paying jobs. From the beginning, Hyperion executives said they would abandon its Union County site, just north of Elk Point, if a majority of voters failed to give their blessing to the rezoning. While conceding defeat, opponents vowed to keep fighting the controversial project on every imaginable front, pressing on with a lawsuit it filed against the county over the zoning procedures and opposing Hyperion as it applies for a bevy of state and federal permits. "We have strategies in place to slow or delay all the permit processes," Ed Cable, chairman of the anti-Hyperion group Save Union County, said after the vote. Tuesday's historic election culminated a months-long, emotionally charged campaign that pitted neighbor against neighbor in this extreme southeast South Dakota county. Supporters cited the once-in-a-lifetime economic opportunities the $10 billion project would bring. An average of 4,500 construction jobs would be required over four years. With the refinery up and running, Hyperion pledges to create 1,826 full-time jobs at hourly wages of between $20 and $30. "I think it would be a great opportunity for young people to stay in this area instead of leaving for other states," Kelly Hoekstra, 31, of Dakota Dunes said after casting a vote in favor of the rezoning. Opponents argued the massive development would not be worth the pollution and other troubles they claimed the refinery would bring. The health risks traditionally associated with a refinery weighed heavily on the minds of some voters. "I live out here. I don't need the pollution," said Jim Schroeder of McCook Lake, after voting against the rezoning. The contentious issue largely broke along urban and rural lines, with residents living the closest to the Hyperion site fighting the hardest to keep the refinery out of their backyards. Tuesday's record turnout largely reflected that split, with early returns from the mostly rural precincts putting the "No" votes squarely in the lead. As votes were tallied in the more populated area, particularly in the southeast tier closest to Sioux City, that lead was slowly erased. The ordinance took a slim 205-vote lead after 11 of the 13 precincts reported. Hyperion supporters declared victory after the Elk Point precinct results came in, increasing the rezoning lead by 150 votes. Last to report was voter-rich Dakota Dunes, where an unusually large number of absentee ballots slowed the counting. In the Dunes, the ordinance easily passed, 1,017 to 236 votes. "That's huge," Phillips told the cheering crowd. The final tally was 3,932 votes in favor of the ordinance and 2,832 against. Hyperion touted the so-called "green" technology in its proposed energy center, which it claims would be the world's cleanest. The refinery would process 400,000 barrels of tar sands crude a day from Alberta into low-sulfur gasoline, diesel and jet fuel. Supporters argued that tapping into reserves from our neighbor to the north would reduce the nation's dependence on Mideast oil and add badly needed refining capacity in the U.S., where the last all-new refinery was built in 1976. Both sides flooded the county's nearly 10,000 registered voters with paid ads, direct mailers and door-to-door stops, combining to raise and spend more than $100,000. A ballot question committee formed by Dallas, Texas-based Hyperion alone poured in at least $45,000. "It was close, and one of the reasons why was negative campaigning worked," Phillips told supporters. "We have always taken the high road, and we will continue to take the high road." Hyperion project executive J.L. "Corky" Frank, a former Marathon Oil executive, joined Phillips for Tuesday night's celebration, where supporters enjoyed music, food and drink and regularly checked their cell phones for up-to-date election numbers. Addressing the audience, Phillips thanked the local supporters, including Bortscheller and her husband, Gary, for hosting the party. Last summer, after Hyperion publicly announced its interest in the Union County site, Bortscheller, who is also a local economic development leader, organized a barbecue for Hyperion CEO Albert Huddleston to introduce him to local residents. "From the very beginning I was on board because I felt it was the right thing for our county," Bortscheller said early in the evening. Journal staff writer Michele Linck contributed to this story.

We had the same problem with announcements and information at our camp. We were the only Troop not eating in the Dining Hall. Announcements were made at the morning and evening flag ceremonies. We would attend the evening flag ceremony, leaving the cook and his assistant for each patrol in camp to continue to work on dinner. It wasn't possible for us to do that for breakfast, especially since we were located in the site furthest from the parade ground. When I pointed this out to the staff, they told us to try to send someone down, or get the information from someone else - they weren't willing to recognize the impossibility and try to come up with a solution, other than put the ball in our court. We did enjoy one bit of irony at the flag ceremonies. At each meal, the staff would come up with some contest to determine the order the troops entered the Dining Hall. At one, the contest was which troop had the highest percentage in full uniform. It turned out that we were the only troop there 100% (which is a sad statement, to me). We informed the director that we were cooking in camp, but would be glad to auction off our spot. He appreciated the humor, but said no auction. I'll be discussing the info problem with the program director in December, hopefully coming up with a solution.

When you have 900 - 1,000 boys showing up for camp each week, it is pretty hard to wait and schedule them once they arrive. I think our council does a pretty good job of letting us register in early April online. One advantage is the boys can prepare for those merit badges they register for - read the MB pamplets, work on the skills (splices for Pioneering, for example) and complete any requirements that can't be completed at camp.

If one of our Scouts signs up for a MB class, he has an obligation to attend. Many of our MB classes at camp are full, so if he signed up and didn't he attend, he most likely kept another Scout from being able to earn that badge. Blowing off a class wouldn't be a reason to send a boy home, but it would trigger a SM conference. We would have a talk about setting goals and achieving them, and finishing what you started. We haven't had to deal with this issue to date.

I know an old SM who would never send a boy home (unless the camp director made him). He figured the boy would be getting off easy if he sent him home. Instead of being sent home, the boy had to do KP, clean the latrines and shower house, collect fire wood, etc. for the rest of the week, or until his behaviour improved. The boy might quit the troop after camp (which might also happen if you send him home), but odds were strong he wouldn't misbehave in the troop again, if he stayed. The other advantage to keeping him in camp was the other boys got to see some of the consequences, which wouldn't happen if the boy was sent home. Fortunately, I haven't had to deal with that type of behaviour in our troop.

Lake Allatoona is at full pool, I believe. The Atlanta Area Council has an aquatics base located there.