BrentAllen

GaHillbilly, Your EPA site says essentially the same thing as the scouting.org page, so what's your beef? From scouting.org: "Add eight drops of liquid chlorine bleach per gallon of cool water. (Use common household bleach; 5.25 percent sodium hypochlorite should be the only active ingredient; there should not be any added soap or fragrances). Water must be cool or chlorine will dissipate and be rendered useless. Let the water stand 30 minutes. If it smells of chlorine, you can use it. If it does not smell of chlorine, add eight more drops of bleach and let it stand another 30 minutes. Smell it again. You can use it if it smells of chlorine. If it doesn't, discard it and find another water source." From the EPA page: "Mix the treated water thoroughly and allow it to stand, preferably covered, for 30 minutes. The water should have a slight chlorine odor. If not, repeat the dosage and allow the water to stand for an additional 15 minutes. If the treated water has too strong a chlorine taste, allow the water to stand exposed to the air for a few hours or pour it from one clean container to another several times."

I have always been told you must have a prescription to get an EpiPen. You can carry benadryl, however. Sure, it's not the same, but it is better than nothing. In our WFA courses, we teach the law of the jungle is YOUR first aid kit will be used on YOU, so YOU decide what you want to carry in it. Reason being, if another hiker gets hurt and I use my first aid kit on him, and he gets evacuated with all his gear (including his first aid kit), mine is now depleted. Something I might need later may have been used on that hurt hiker, leaving me short. So, when possible, use the victim's kit to give aid. With that being said, most troops/crews will carry a larger group kit with them. Just don't rely on that one kit, and not take your own. How many hiking groups actually stay together during a hike? Some get spread out pretty far, and odds are if someone gets hurt, the group kit will be far away. Just Murphy's Law. Make sure everyone knows who is carrying the group kit, and where it is located. We teach to put a large red ribbon/zipper pull on the pack pocket where the first aid kit is located. This is a good idea for everyone who is carrying their own kit as well. I now also carry a small "first response kit" on the outside of my pack that has gloves, a few 2" sterile pads, an elastic bandage and a CPR face shield. That will take care of most severe immediate emergencies, without me having to get into my pack for the full first aid kit. I don't remember where I got mine, but it is similar to these: http://www.cpr-savers.com/Industrials/Cpr%20prod/cprkeychain2.html(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

GNX, The paragraph you are referencing is about Right side up, not the order of wearing multiple knots (which is addressed in the previous paragraph). The sentence you quote is discussing the knots found at the top of the first column, showing which is the right side up for the DAM, Silver World Award and Seabadge. And yes, I have seen the DAM sewn on upside down.

Lisa, I haven't been to NT yet, but we just booked a trip for summer, 2009. I did a little research in making the decision where we wanted to go, so I might be able to answer some of your questions. I don't think NT offers anything other than HA trek programs during the summer. In the winter, they offer several different programs where individuals or small groups can attend. For the summer treks, Charles Sommers is "ideally suited for novice canoeists, but offers challenging routes for experienced travellers as well." accoring to their marketing brochure. I believe the routes and campsites are more established around Sommers than they are in the other areas. Sommers has an emergency radio system covering a 62 mile area. Rogert Canoe base in Canada offers the option to paddle the 8 passenger "canoes du nord" or north canoes on the historic trade routes. There are several entry points, including remote fly-ins (at additional cost). Northern Expeditions are in Canada and I believe they all start with remote fly-ins. To go into Canada, a passport will be required. We chose Sommers since this will be the first HA trip for the Scouts. I've talked to Scouters from local troops who have made this trip, and we are using their itineraries as a model. Wish I could give you more info, but that's all I have.

End of the world? Well, not only did the Atlanta Hawks make the play-offs, they have now forced a game 7 after splitting the series 3 - 3 with Boston. A sure sign of the apocalypse if ever there was one! (Go Hawks!)

Latest rumor I heard was a new shirt coming out, similar to the Switchbacks (meaning an outdoor, synthetic material), in August. That may turn out to be just as accurate as the prediction I heard that the new uniform would be out this past January.

I was just about to say in the post welcoming Rooster back - "Now, all we need is Kahuna to show up!" :-) I can't figure out if the world is ending, the pendulum is swinging back, or it is all just a ride on a sine curve. Maybe we can get a prediction from James Hansen. :-) Regardless, welcome back, and welcome to the South!

"Each and every campout"? Kudu: "Of course Baden-Powell's rule that Patrols always camp 100 yards apart was based on Troops having a maximum of 4 Patrols." (from your first post in this thread) Doesn't "always" equal "each and every"? I bet it's a rope.

Well, there you have it. Anyone out there who earned their Eagle in a Troop where the Patrols didn't camp at least 300 feet apart on each and every campout, please return your award to your Council HQ immediatly. You didn't earn it. You aren't a REAL Scout, and certainly aren't a REAL Eagle. I can only imagine the tongue lashing the poor new Scout in Kudu's Troop must receive when he sets up his tent only 297 feet away from the other Patrols. "300 FEET! 300 FEET!! WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?! B-P SAID 300 FEET, AND IT WILL BE 300 FEET! NOW, MOVE THAT TENT AND MAKE IT SNAPPY, OR I WILL MAKE YOU WEAR THESE WOOD BADGE BEADS AND NECKERCHIEF AS PUNISHMENT!! WHERE IS THAT SPL?! HOW COULD HE LET THIS HAPPEN?? HE IS ACTING LIKE HE ATTENDED WOOD BADGE AND HAS BEEN DUMBED DOWN TO A DEN LEADER! GET OVER HERE AND PUT THESE BEADS ON, AND DON'T TAKE THEM OFF UNTIL I TELL YOU TO!!" Kudu, do you carry a tape measure, or do you have a rope measured out to exactly 300 feet?

By far, the best was Wood Badge. Many reasons why. The course was loaded with material, activities and fun! We changed venues (patrol site vs. TLA) often, and the presenters also changed, which kept everything fresh. In the entire week, I don't think I ever got bored. There wasn't much down time at all. In fact, I don't think I got to bed before midnight once, and we weren't up just wasting time or relaxing. The course lasted more than one day or one weekend. We had time to really get into the course work and discuss it with our patrol mates. As has been mentioned here many times before, I probably learned as much from the members of my patrol as I did from the course material. The course was presented very professionaly, meaning it was polished, well rehearsed. It was very evident that the staff had put in a tremendous amount of time in preparing to deliver the course. They not only knew the course material inside and out, they lived and breathed it. They were passionate about it. I was a CM at the time, and seeing and participating in the Boy Scout model brought back tons of memories from my old Scout days. It was like being back at Summer Camp again! We got to be Boy Scouts, for a whole week! It was a lot of work, but it was a ton of fun!! We came away with workable knowledge, and a project through which to apply and test that knowledge. It wasn't the typical course where you attend, take some notes, maybe take a test, and receive a training card. You had to take what you had learned and apply it to your position in Scouting. It took me about 15 months to complete everything, and I could see real results from the effort. The course was very rewarding, in many different ways.

Hey GW, I know you want to get the last word in, and you can have it. We can argue the definition of "directed" and debate whether I meant the curriculum was "directed" or the marketing was "directed", but the bottom line is most of the participants we are seeing in the classes we are offering (3 to 4 per year) are there because of the Philmont requirement. In the question & answer parts of the course, Philmont and other HA treks usually dominate the discussions. Plus, most monthly campouts are not that far from professional emergency response, whereas the High Adventure treks are. As Bill O'Reilly says, the final word is yours.

I have been in the market for a very light Day Pack suitable for Scout trips - one I could carry in my backpack and use when going to activities or events away from camp. LL Bean makes a Stowaway Pack that really meets my needs. 1,000 cubic inches, mesh water bottle pockets, stretch cord on front, and it even folds into a storage pocket. I wasn't sure if I could get everything in it that I usually carry in a 2,500 cube Day Pack, but it all fit easily (rain suit, first aid kit, emergency blanket/tarp, essentials kit, water bottle, etc). The pack weighs only 16 ounces to boot! Cost is $24.50. I'm impressed! http://www.llbean.com/cd-1/48826.shtml

Welcome back, Rooster! I was hoping to see you again here some day. :-)

American Red Cross CPR/AED/First Aid isn't a BSA program either, but we offer it through the council and teach it with council volunteers, just like we do WFA. Philmont now requires each crew to have at least one member trained in WFA, so while it may not be an official BSA program, it is being required by the BSA. http://old.scouting.org/philmont/2008firstaidrequirements.pdf Philmont requires that a least one person, preferably two, (either an advisor or a youth participant) in each crew be currently certified in American Red Cross Wilderness First Aid or the equivalent* and CPR from the American Heart Association, the American Red Cross or the equivalent."

I've never had to use CPR or operate an AED, but I keep my certification updated every year. I've never been on a campout where anyone had to use CPR, but I still recommend all of our leaders get the training. So... you (WildernesStudent) could ask that same question about CPR - what is the percent chance that something serious enough to require CPR training will occur?? The answer is very low, in the low single digits. For me, the training is simply living up to the BSA motto - Be Prepared. Also understand WFA is directed more to Scouts and Scouters attending our High Adventure programs (Philmont, for example). What % of Scouts attend Philmont or Northern Tier? I don't have that answer, though I'd be very interested in hearing it. That may be part of the reason you aren't getting the type of answer you want to hear - not a high % of Scouts attend the High Adventure camps, and most of our monthly camping trips aren't out of cell phone range or very far away from EMS response. We just aren't in locations or situations that would require the WFA specific skills all that often. But if you ever are a long way from the trailhead when a bad accident happens, you will be glad you went through the course.

As a Chartered Org Rep, I get one invitation to one Annual Business Meeting, where I get to say "I" with everyone else when the new slate of board members is voted in as a group. I may get to do the same when the minutes from the last Annual meeting are approved, IIRC. To say I have much of a voice with the Executive Board is a bit of a stretch. Luckily, I feel our Council does a great job and I can't recall having any real disagreements with them. There are a few things I would like to see improved, and I know where to take those comments. Being a COR has nothing to do with them listening to me. I certainly don't know everyone on our Executive Board, but those I do know have been pretty active in their units. I don't know that we have many "ladder climbers" like Eamonn mentions. The members I do know are for the most part extremely dedicated Scouters and also happen to be pretty successful in their careers (and have the deep pockets OGE mentions). I am comfortable with them making decisions which they think are in the best interest of the council.

Kudu, Since you care as much as you do, please cite the quote. The information you provided so far is not sufficient. Hillcourt did not create all the material in the BS HB, and I believe there was a team of authors. To be accurate, we need to know who first said it and coined it, and when and where.

"Male leaders wear the official olive web belt or official leather belt with the buckle of their choice." Current adult uniform inspection sheet, #34048, 2007 Printing. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34048.pdf(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Lisa, We haven't tried this one yet with the troop, but it is an old favorite. Each patrol has two long poles and several "steps" (typically one for each member of the patrol). Each Scout in the patrol has to, in turn, run up and lash their "step" between the two poles, forming a ladder. When all the steps are lashed in, a Scout has to climb the ladder to either grab an object or pop a balloon. First patrol to complete the task wins. As you can tell, it is a speed event, but if the lashings aren't done well enough, they won't hold. A fun way to teach lashing.

highcountry, It sounds to me like some of those boys you mentioned need a lesson on the Golden Rule. How would they feel if you (assuming your are SM) or the other leaders only showed up when you felt like it or when it was really convenient? Would they like that? It's a two-way street to me.

One of the first things we teach in ARC WFA is that it is nearly impossible for a group of Scouts to evacuate a seriously injured person. Serious spinal injury? Forget the stretcher pack. Provide care and send for help. The course is not meant to teach someone how to be an EMT. It teaches the students how to be better prepared for a backcounty accident, how to treat and give care when help will be delayed, and how to deal with a multiple victim accident. All these skills are much more advanced than what is taught in a standard First Aid course. This is a simple comparison chart for the ARC WFA and SOLO WFA taught in our Council: http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.asp?orgkey=1456&id=19652 mn-scout, I believe you can only "challenge" if you have previously taken the course and passed, but I could be wrong on that.

John, That doesn't sound common, based on what I've seen in our Council. That sounds like a staff member had to drop out late in the game, and it was too late to get a replacement. But it could have been the plan from the beginning, as well. Here, we have our Assistant QM dual train as a TG, just in case. This year, we actually have 2 AQMs, which is the first time I have seen that. Both are dual training with the TGs.

Lisa, I would agree with you about the impact of a boy being absent in a smaller troop vs. a larger troop. Some boys probably do want to be more anonymous in a larger troop, and they also just might like the dynamics of a larger group. I would have to disagree a little about the boys being active in other areas. Most of our boys are very involved in other activities outside of Scouting - sports, band, academic bowl, church, cotillion, etc. Since our boys are all on the younger end of the scale, we don't have the 16 year-old issues of cars, jobs and dates. It will be very interesting to see what happens when we get there, and I hope I will be open and ready for a jolt of reality. thebigguy, the patrol method is the ONLY method in my book, to borrow from BP. Of all the problems we ran into with the large troop we left, this was probably the most troubling. Other than patches on arms, there was no real patrol identity. No competitions between them; they wouldn't even form up together as patrols for the opening ceremony at troop meetings. One dad who I knew through Cubs asked me at the end of the week how Summer Camp went. After giving him an honest report, he said "At least my son knew who his patrol leader was for the week. Last year he never knew." Can you imagine that? A boy spends an entire week at camp and never learns who his PL is?!?! That is pretty indicative of the Patrol Method I saw in place. That could happen regardless of the size of the troop, so don't think I'm just bashing large troops. As for the number of adults involved, and their involvement, that same large troop we left lists around 25 ASMs on their charts, but there would typically be only 4 or 5 at a meeting. I asked on of the few "regulars" if they had assignments, such as a mentor to a patrol. He said sure, they did. When I asked him which patrol he was mentor to, he said he couldn't remember. I couldn't find one who did know! When we left, the boys coming over to start our new troop had the hard press put on them from some members of that troop. They explained how they had all these older boys, and that we had none. True, they had 16 Life Scouts and they had produced plenty of Eagles. Problem was you never saw those older boys at meetings, and most never went on campouts. In fact, it was a REALLY big deal last summer that the SPL (a 13 year-old) was actually going to attend Summer Camp! They had plenty of Scouts on the rolls, which meant they were successful.

In the forum and here locally, I see many troops state they have a certain number of Scouts registered or on the books, and another number that are active. When we visited troops, we would be told that troop had, say, 60 boys but I could only count half that many present. This would happen on every visit. When they would go camping, troops would constantly form temporary patrols, since they didn't have enough patrol members to function. We did not like this approach. When we started the new troop, attendance and participation was one of the main issues we wanted to improve upon. We had always had good attendance with the Webelos Den, so I didn't see why we couldn't repeat this at the Boy Scout level. We started the new Troop back at the first of September. We have had 31 Troop meetings and 7 camping trips since then. We started with 6 boys and are now up to 12. Our attendance at meetings has been 92%* and at campouts has been 92%*. We have 100% signed up for Summer Camp. *Thanks to Troopmaster, it is very easy to calculate these. While I would like to think this is just due to exceptional program, I think it is mainly due to the expectations that are set. We make it very clear to the parents that their son is making an obligation to his patrol mates and to the troop. We recognize there will be conflicts, and we do not require 100% attendance. Our Scribe does take roll, and at the troop opening ceremony, each patrol leader gives an attendance report, along with a uniform report. Attendance and uniforming count towards the Honor Patrol award. We have a poster board that shows every meeting or outing and who was present, which the Scribe maintains (visual aid for prospective Scout parents). My personal opinion is this extra emphasis on attendance has made a difference of around 10 - 20 percentage points. It may be greater than that, given that some less active Scouts who visited us may have chosen to join one of the other local troops, which is fine with me. The following is included in our new Scout visitor packet: Expectations of Members Scouts recognize they have an obligation to the members of their Patrol and Troop. When a Scout is absent, he leaves his Patrol mates short. If a Scout cannot attend a meeting or outing, he should notify his Patrol Leader as soon as possible. Scouts are encouraged to participate in activities outside of Scouting. If a Scout has a long-term conflict, such as during a sports season, he should notify the Scoutmaster. The Scout will be encouraged to attend meetings and campouts when possible, but he will most likely not be able to fulfill the requirements of a Position of Responsibility (POR) during such an absence. Scouts of Troop 494 wear the complete, correct uniform to meetings, and to and from campouts, unless otherwise directed. This includes the Scout shirt, Scout pants or shorts, Scout belt and Scout socks. Scouts will live by the Scout Oath and Scout Law, and will treat others as they wish to be treated. Name-calling, put-downs, discrimination or any form of physical aggression will not be tolerated. Yes sir, yes maam, no sir, no maam, thank you, please will be used by all Scouts and Scouters. So far, it is working for us. I think if some Troops put more emphasis on recognizing attendance, they would see better participation.

When I read that policy statement, I see two different types of funds mentioned. The first is "unit funds" that could mean dues or money raised through fund raisers. The second part of the statement, "In the case of a chartered organization, any funds ... which may have been secured as property of the unit" sounds like funding the unit received directly from the chartered organization. That would make sense - any funds the CO put into the unit, they would like to get back. I'm not an attorney and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I'm probably wrong.