BrentAllen

I still have my BSHB from my youth. Eighth edition, Second printing. February, 1973. Camping MB was NOT required for Eagle. Camping Skill Award was not required for any rank. I also have the "New Scout Advancement Requirements" supplement sheet that shows the changes that would take effect on February 8, 1979. Camping was added to the list of Eagle required merit badges. The number of MBs required for Eagle dropped from 24 to 21. First Aid MB was added as a requirement for First Class (Citizenship in the Community was no longer required for First Class). There were additional requirements added to the Camping Skill Award, but it was not required for any rank. So, yes, for about 7 years Scouts could earn Eagle without going camping.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

NJ, Cool and fun are very different. Go back and look at some of the threads posted here over the years, regarding Scouting not being cool and the solutions offered to save us from collapse. Soccer programs, Kudu's favorite Mazuca quote about Scouts sitting at computers instead of being outdoors, all we need are new "cool" uniforms. There are many in Scouting who think our membership would grow if we could just make Scouting "cool." I'm sure we all know families that won't let their son get involved in Scouting because it isn't "cool". In that vein, this articles rings very true for Scouting. We don't do it to be cool. We do it because the ideals (Oath and Law) matter.

JimFritz, Been there, done that, started a new Troop. From your last post, it appears that you feel compelled to "save" this Troop, instead of leaving. I have news for you - the people running that Troop don't want to be "saved," and they are going to resent you for trying. Banging your head against a brick wall will be a more productive and gratifying excercise than trying to change that Troop into your mindset. If the Troop isn't providing the experience you want your son to have in Scouting, go find another Troop or start a new one. Good luck.

Interesting article on the perils of "cool" Christianity and churches. I think the same idea applies to Scouting. The last two paragraphs could have a few words changed, and apply to Scouting (IMO). The Perils of 'Wannabe Cool' Christianity http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704111704575355311122648100.html The last two paragraphs, with the [words] changed.... If the [bSA] leadership thinks that "cool [scouting]" is a sustainable path forward, they are severely mistaken. As a twentysomething, I can say with confidence that when it comes to [scouting], we don't want cool as much as we want real. If we are interested in [scouting] in any sort of serious way, it is not because it's easy or trendy or popular. It's because [the Ideals] are appealing, and what [they] say rings true. It's because the world we inhabit is utterly phony, ephemeral, narcissistic, image-obsessed and sex-drenchedand we want an alternative. It's not because we want more of the same.

I don't think Scouts should be forced to pay their way entirely, but I think it is a good thing for them to get some skin in the game, to pay part of their costs. It's not a direct analogy, but if you looked at college kids, and compared those whose parents paid their full cost to those who had to pay all or part of their costs, my guess is those who had to earn their way probably had better attendance in class, and probably worked harder on their grades. They were probably less likely to drop classes and probably spent more time studying and less time partying. When you have to pay your way, when you have some skin in the game, that activity will be of more value to you. You won't take it for granted. I think this would also apply to Scouting.

jhankins, I hope you do realize that the pages quoted by allenj are from 1948 and 1954 Handbooks, and are no longer valid. Also, back then Scouts didn't receive a Scout badge for joining - the first badge they received was their Tenderfoot, after earning it. I'm curious how your son passed requirement 10 for Tenderfoot, which requires an intial test, practice for 30 days, and showing improvement after 30 days.

jhankins, There is one part of your last post that is absolutely true - the Troop did "give" your son Tenderfoot, because there is no way he earned it. Boys know when they are given something, and when they have earned it. Troops giving away ranks only hurts them in the long run - the boys lose respect for the program, and think it is all just a joke.

Our Crew had a very fun week at Sea Base last week, sailing aboard the Conch Quest in the Coral Reel Sailing Program. The boys had a blast sailing, snorkling, fishing, and especially lobstering! We didn't realize it when we booked the trip, but we caught the lobster mini-season during our trip. We had good success and had a nice grilled lobster supper for our efforts. The Conch Quest is a racing yacht previously owned the U.S. Naval Academy and sailed on the Great Lakes. It is a tiller boat, and gave the boys a great opportunity to learn to sail. I was very impressed with the Sea Base facilities and the staff, and hope to return again often. Pictures of our trip can be seen at http://www.kodakgallery.com/gallery/creativeapps/slideShow/Main.jsp?albumId=918026788803&ownerId=13904598203

A fun and exciting program that provides Scouts with a feeling of belonging - a home away from home. That's it. If you don't have that, nothing else matters. To dig a little deeper, a program that provides (in meetings and outings) a good mix of old favorites and new challenges. I don't think most boys care who does the planning, only that the program is fun and exciting. I do believe the older boys enjoy having the power to run the Troop, but they realize this also comes with a lot of work. The Patrol Method. Successful Troops employ it in nearly every aspect of their program. Patrol Spirit, team work, sacrifice - they are all products of the Patrol Method. I've been talking a lot lately with our youth leaders about the challenge of leadership. That some boys thrive on this challenge, that leadership can't just be learned by reading a book, but only by practicising it with different groups. Some boys enjoy the challenge, some hate it. They understand that Scouting is the only real organization that gives them the opportunity to really practice and study leadership, hands-on. A successful Troop will provide real opportunities for this to take place, and not just give it lip service.

Sail School Bahamas, I'm sure you offer a great program, and am glad you are doing so for Scouts. As far as the Triple Crown Award goes, local councils have nothing to do with it. The award program is run by the Charles L. Sommers Alumni Association in conjunction with the BSA. I invite you to visit http://www.holry.org/triplecrownaward.php so that you may be fully knowledgeable about the subject should you be asked again. Unless you receive confirmation directly from them approving your program for the Triple Crown Award, you will be doing Scouts a great disservice in telling them their trip with you will count towards the award. That GA council that said your program counted may have confused your trip with the Sea Base Bahamas Sailing Adventure. Councils employ lots of people, and many of them are not familiar with the High Adventure programs, and even fewer are up to speed on the Triple Crown Award.

We attend a camp with a big dining hall, but we take and cook our own food. This is the boys' decision, and every year they feel stronger and stronger about it. Our camp offers 4 mb sessions in the morning, and two in the afternoon. The only thing we do is ask the older Scouts (non-first year) not to schedule a first period class (8:30 - 9:30). They can still take 4 or 5 mb classes during the week, if they want. First-year Scouts do attend a class from 8:30 - 10:30 and then another (Swimming) from 10:30 - 12:30. If a Troop eats in the Dining Hall, how do they employ the Patrol Method during the week? To us, teaching and employing the Patrol Method is much more important than having the boys earn a maximum number of merit badges. Cooking meals, eating and cleaning up is one of the best activities Scouts can participate in to really get a handle on the Patrol Method. The patrol leader has to lead, the boys have to follow the duty roster and work as a team. They had to plan a week of meals, and had to buy all the food, within a budget. They have to learn how to keep their food cold, how to manage their coolers for the entire week (as well as learning how to use dry ice in a cooler). I can't imagine giving all that up in order to eat in a dining hall. At the end of the week, the new Scouts (March cross-overs) have become real members of their patrols. The patrol leaders have gained a lot of experience, dealing with various crisis throughout the week. Out of 39 Troops in camp with us for Summer Camp, we were the only ones cooking in camp. It is a point of pride for the boys, but a little disappointing as a picture of Scouting in 2010.

I guess our area has chosen not to participate in the decline in Scouting membership. Our Pack is busting at the seams, at 135 boys. Our Troop continues to grow - we had a couple of 8th graders join us recently, bringing us up to 43 (we started with 6 boys in Sept. 2007). Other Troops in the area are growing as well, so we are not taking boys from them. We had a great week in camp earlier this summer. 39 boys attended, earning 90 plus merit badges. 15 earned Swimming, 5 earned Lifesaving, 8 earned First Aid. 7 boys and 1 adult completed the Mile Swim program. We were the only Troop that cooked our meals in camp (brought our own food). The boys decide if they want to do this, and every year the sentiment gets stronger to do our own meals. Our SPL really grew into the position and did a great job running the Troop. We had some young PLs who struggled through the week, but they are getting there. I don't see how they would have made the same progress with their patrols if we had been eating in the dining hall. I think we have the makings of a pretty good patrol method, boy-led Troop. Our oldest Scouts are still only 14, getting ready to start high school, so we still have some maturing to do. After reading Kudu's rant (for the millionth time), I guess we are really doomed - I have attended WB (2004) and I have staffed two courses (2007 & 2008), so according to Kudu, there is no hope for me. Alas, all is lost.

We meet year round, as do most of the Troops in the area. The Troop we initially joined doesn't hold Troop meetings during the summer. We will skip the meeting on the week of July 4th. Other than that, we will be holding weekly meetings. Yes, attendance will drop some due to family vacations, but we still have plenty of Scouts attend. It is a great time to work on finishing up merit badge partials from summer camp. As a Scout, our favorite meetings were during the summer. No homework or school tests to worry about. We could stay later than usual, and it was a more relaxed atmosphere. We were either getting ready for Summer Camp, or talking about it afterwards.

We participate in the event tomorrow at the Marietta National Cemetery, with many other Troops and Packs from the Atlanta Area Council. I believe there are around 18,000 graves there, and they will all be flagged in about an hour. The Scouts are taught to place the flag in front of the marker, stand at attention, read the name on the marker, and give a salute. It is a very nice way for the Scouts to participate in a Memorial Day event and help them understand what Memorial Day means, instead of just it being another holiday.

Interesting. I would have thought that if you wanted the boys to provide the vision and direction, you would have asked more questions of them, instead of giving them directions. For instance, asking them if they wanted to elect their SPL, instead of just selecting him. Asking them if they wanted to elect their PLs, instead of having them picked. Asking them how they wanted to divide up into patrols. I'm not saying you did anything wrong - you just gave more direction than I thought you would have, given your posts over the years. If you want to argue that you didn't give any direction or coaching, then why do they need you there?

Oh, contrare?? Then, what was all this? I had all the Eagle rank in one group, all the Life in another, all the Star in a third, and the FC in the rest. I then had all the NYLT boys come to the front of each group. I had only one Eagle and fortunately he was NYLT. I went over to him and asked him if he wanted to be SPL for the troop. He said that position was supposed to be elected. I told him that ideally in a boy-led program that might work, but adult-led means the adult runs the show by fiat. He was the highest ranking, most experienced, best trained. I wanted the best and did he care to take the job. He said yes. Then he was told to pick an ASPL to bunk with him. Either he could pick his best buddy or pick someone that would really be up to the job. (He picked well.) Then he was to pick a QM. Again he selected by experience and training. The QM picked his "buddy" to be Scribe. ______________________________________________________________________________ I see an awful lot of "I"s at the start of those sentences. What do call what you were doing when you were dividing up the ranks, hand-picking the SPL? I would call that coaching. Vision? You wanted the highest rank for you SPL, you didn't want him elected. You gave him direction on selection his ASPL. You had him pick PLs instead of having them elected. Your vision is top-down for forming the Troop. Your vision is boy-led, which they carried out after initial formation. The boys didn't come up with this on their own - where did they get the ideas? They were all "deer in the headlights." Again, if you weren't coaching or mentoring, what were you doing at the beginning of the process?

"I took my boys out into a big open field and said, "Okay, organize yourself into a troop. Obviously I was met by a whole herd of "deer in the headlights". I then said, do you want boy-led or adult-led? More "deer in the headlights." I said I didn't do well with adult-led, but I'd give it my best shot." A SM is to provide vision, while coaching and mentoring. That is what you ended up doing. Without the vision, coaching and mentoring, a Troop will most likely fail. If we don't provide that, what are we there for?

Amen to that! We have one of those gentlemen in our district, Josiah Benator. He probably barely reaches 5 feet tall, on his tip-toes, but he is a giant among men. He is the most unassuming, soft-spoken, friendly man you will ever meet. I ran into him at Summer Camp a few years back (he was still going strong at age 85, attending all week) and I asked how he was doing. He said fine, but he needed more boys. He only had 3 or 4 at Summer Camp, all older boys, but yet he was willing to spend all week with them. I ran into him again the next spring at a district event, and he had about a dozen or so boys, mostly younger Scouts, so he was doing fine. It is my sincere pleasure to call this man friend, and to shake his left hand. I hope I can be like him when I grow up. http://www.jewishscouting.org/news/stuff/atlantasmarticle.pdf A nice pic of Josiah is on the page linked. This being Wednesday, Josiah Benator and his band of boys will gather today at Congregation Or VeShalom for their weekly meeting. For about an hour, he will supervise them as they work on projects to earn merit badges and, perhaps, plan their next hiking event. Its been the same story for the past 65 years, at least for Benator, who has helped shape hundreds, some say thousands, of young boys into men. You might guess his passion just by looking at his clothes: olive pants and shirt bearing scout pens and badges, and gold tie with an Eagle clasp. Josiah Benator is a scoutmaster and, no offense, a very old one at that. But he is an 86-year-old with the vigor of a man in his 30s. He can hike over five miles without breaking a sweat and rappel a 60-foot tower with a ready smile. But nothing makes him smile like the boys in Troop 73. He and his wife, Birdie, live on a quiet street in northeast Atlanta. Theyre both retired from their jobs, but not from scouting. Actually, they may never retire from scouting because its Josiahs one true calling. He knows what scouting can mean in the life of a boy because he knows what it meant in his own. Thats why hes stayed with it so long. If you want to teach a boy to appreciate the outdoors, the value of community, to be a good citizen, scouting is how you do it, he said. Benator was 12 when he first joined the organization in 1934. Scouting was considered one of the great youth programs of the time. It was also a diversion from the worlds troubles the depression and a mortgage meltdown not much different from todays. A member of Troop 52, young Josiah embraced the great outdoors, hiking along the Chattahoochee River, catching the trolley car to Stone Mountain and hiking some more. He learned to tie a knot and read a compass the same way he honed his leadership skills, with gusto, serving as a junior assistant scoutmaster, assistant scoutmaster and acting scoutmaster for Troop 27. After graduating with honors from Georgia Tech in 1943, he enrolled in officer candidate school and, shortly after, went before the Scouting board of review and did what any dedicated scout would do. He got his Eagle. That same year he went off to war, serving three and a half years with the 10th Armored Division in the Battle of Bastogne. He returned stateside in 1946 and went to work for Scripto as a materials manager. He married Birdie the following year and the two of them raised seven children. Without fail, he credits Birdie for making his life of scouting possible. She took care of the home while he went hiking and camping with the boys. Every February, she sponsors a Kiddush celebrating his birthday and anniversary in scouting at the synagogue. The grandfather of 13 estimates that hes lorded over thousands of scouts the last six decades and hed done so while serving his community and synagogue as President of Congregation Or VeShalom, president of the DeKalb Grand Jurors Association, President of the Sheffield Civic Club and co-captain of the neighborhood watch. Last year, the Atlanta Area Council of Boy Scouts of America, dedicated the 2007 Eagle Scout Class to Mr. B. It was like going to a baseball convention and Willie Mays had just walked into the room, said Jack Arogeti, a former Cub Scout and President of Congregation Or VeShalom. His accomplishments and service to scouting were well known, highly regarded and everyone could see he played the game because he loved the game, and he believed in the game, and he was a microcosm of the game.

Gern, Good for you.

No, Scoutfish, what you said was: But on top of that, the CO is saying "Women are useless and inferior!" Any mom who did not have an issue with that policy would in fact be proving that policy true and correct by not speaking out about it. This is not about BSA policy so much as SHOWING a CO that their policy is a load of crap and that as a parent (who's duty is to raise her son and give guidence as well as mentor as she see's fit until he's 18) she will not put up with or allow it! ***************************************** Showing a CO their policy is a load of crap?? That the beliefs of the CO are a load of crap?? That is what you posted. Do you realize that the CO is a church, and the policies represent their beliefs?? If the mom doesn't like the policy, she should leave. End of story. No need to bash the CO.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Scoutfish, can you really not understand that these are the beliefs of their church? That the women who join that church do so because they share those beliefs? This is their religion - is it that hard to understand?? When you bash them, you are bashing their religion!?!? These same churchs don't allow women to be pastors - is that sexism, too?? If you don't agree with their beliefs, then fine - don't join their church or Troop. As a Scout, you have a duty to respect their religion and not bash it. How can this be that hard to understand?

Scoutfish, The ignorance shown in your post is astonishing. A Pentecostal church in our council sponsors a Troop. This is a very conservative church. The church believes that women should not be camping with the Troop, and they don't allow it. They believe that the only places the boys should ever be bare-chested (shirtless) is in the bath house or at the waterfront. As I said, they have very conservative beliefs. According to you, this church believes "Women are useless and inferior!" According to you, every woman who attends this church is "proving that policy true and correct by not speaking out about it." According to you, this church "promotes ... sexism." According to you, the beliefs of this church are "a load of crap." I really fail to see how you are respecting the beliefs of this church and many others like it. As I posted before, and can be found in the Boy Scout Handbook, a Scout is reverent. He respects the beliefs of others. Your post is completely lacking in respect.

Come on, Beavah, stop playing dumb. My post was about RECOGNITION, not competition. RECOGNITION is given in both competition and in service. The politically correct have watered down RECOGNITION in competition so that everyone gets an award, and no one gets their feelings hurt. Same thing happens in education. At my daughter's 5th grade awards ceremony, every kid received an award. Those that didn't make Principals List or Honor Roll got a "Participation" award, I guess for participating in elementary school. Pretty silly, IMO. Now, you want to do away with the adult leader recognition program for the same reasons - so no one gets their feelings hurt. What next - give Eagle out so every kid and his parents won't feel left out? So, look in the mirror. You don't care for the program. You don't even have enough respect for those who nominated you to show up for the ceremony to receive your award. You end up taking the award from someone else who would have appreciated receiving it, who would have had the courtesy to show up to receive it. I don't see why you think anyone should value your opinion on this subject.

What does your CO say? How do they feel?

moosetracker, I don't see where anyone has asked you to change your beliefs. nwasness went into a Troop, didn't like their policies, and complained about it. She wants them to change for her. Evidently you don't like their policy either - fine. No one is forcing you or nwasness to join this type of Troop. Is there anything else to discuss?