BrentAllen

Beavah, Your posts wreak of "I got mine, now get rid of the program." Maybe we should all just follow the Golden Rule. Getting rid of the program is just more of the "no competition because kids' feelings will be hurt" nonsense that is ruining this country. Unlike you, I have nominated several people for awards, and I enjoy seeing them receive them. It truly is better to give than receive. Try it sometime, and maybe you will have a new appreciation for the awards.

SMT, Yes, there are Troops that restrict membership to a certain religion, including leaders. If a Jewish synagogue charters a Troop and wants to restrict membership to only Orthodox Jews, they have that right. If a Catholic church wants to restrict membership in their Troop to only members of their church, they have that right. If an Indian tribe chartered a Troop and wanted to restrict membership to only their tribe, they could do that. And I imagine if your local county Democrat club wanted to charter a Troop and limit membership to only Democrats, they could probably do that, as well. I'm not sure how many 11 year olds would know whether they are a Democrat, Republican or other, so I think such a Troop would have a hard time surviving. :-)

For someone with so much training, I'm surprised you weren't aware that COs had this authority. I know of some churches in the Atlanta area that are very conservative, and don't allow women on campouts. This restriction is part of their religion, and we, as Scouts, are to respect their religious beliefs. This may not be the case in this Troop in South Carolina, but I would investigate the issue further before I started using terms like "archaic" and "antiquated" and making other claims about women being treated as inferior. I find the comment about using stone tablets particularly disrespectful. This policy is coming from the church, not the Troop leadership. A Scout is reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

Say what?? You are going to have to explain that "new math" to me. By my calculation, 4 months from 1/2/10 would be 5/2/10.

FWIW, TroopMaster uses months, not days. One of our Scouts just received Star on May 11. The program is counting 184 days for him to eligible for Life, which would be November 11. I would go with the requirement the way it is written - months, not days. 10/31/09 to 4/30/10 for 6 months. 10/31/09 to 2/28/10 for 4 months in a non-Leap Year calendar.

"The reason I asked about how many knots Brent had I figured him for a three row kinda guy." Well, you would be wrong - again. I didn't start our Troop to earn a knot. I did it so my son would have the Scouting experience I wanted him to have. I've done lots of things in Scouting, none of which were to earn a knot. I've nominated several people for Silver Beaver, and have been very happy to see them receive it. Unlike Beavah, I think it is great for them to be recognized by their peers for outstanding dedication and service to Scouts. Those Scouters are an inspiration to me. Funny thing - I've never known anyone who received the Silver Beaver to suddenly take their toys and go home. If what Beavah says is true, we would never see those who are in it for their ego show up for anything after getting their award. Mission accomplished, they would just find something else to do with their time. Kinda like those Eagles who get the award and then disappear. The Silver Beavers I know end up doing even more for the program after getting the award. They don't slow down, they pick up the pace. Too bad some have to question their motivation.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Additional information on the new Founder Bar. See http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2010/05/new-insignia-recognizes-a-units-founding-members.html Also, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/522-011.pdf If you were a member of the unit's original charter, you can wear the Founder Bar under the unit number on your uniform (if you are still a member of that unit). If you were a founding member of a unit in your youth but are now a member of a different unit, you don't wear the Bar. For instance, if you were a founding member of Troop 22 but you are now a member of Troop 88, you wouldn't wear the Bar for Troop 88.

Basement, How many years have you been a Scouter? Me - 7 years, starting when my son entered 2nd Grade. 1 year ADL, 1 yr ACM, 2 yrs CM, 1/2 yr ASM, 2 1/2 yrs SM.

I don't have any silver critters, so none are on my shirt. I wear 5, in the order I received them - AOL, Cubmaster, DAM, William D Boyce, Scouter's Training Award. How about you?

"The flute is a heavy metal instrument." Ian Anderson

Basement, You don't owe me apology, though this does appear to be a reoccurring theme. I'm not insulted at all, certainly not by you. Yes, those were military ribbons - they didn't have leader knots back then. Does that make him more of a peacock for wearing non-Scouting awards on his uniform? I've been to some of those "silver critter awards" ceremonies - not for me - and I had a completely different experience. I came away with my batteries fully recharged, inspired from hearing about the super-dedicated leaders in our council. Maybe it's just different being in a big council. It is plainly evident that the recipients have dedicated most of their adult lives to Scouting, and they didn't do it for a "silver critter." I fail to see how giving them one night of recognition is a bad thing. I believe our council holds ours annual event on Wednesday nights, when nearly all of our Troop are not meeting, so the event doesn't interfere with any youth activities. So, Beavah, in all your years of Scouting, you have never nominated anyone for the Silver Beaver or the DAM? For any awards? Interesting.

Scouting must be very different where all of you live. In all my years of Scouting, I can't say that I've ever seen a Scouter who was "in it for their own ego needs than in it to serve the kids." I know lots of decorated Scouters, most of them long-time SMs, who are very deserving of every award they received, and then some. Sorry to hear you guys are surrounded by problem Scouters, and messed up Districts.

Yes, peacocks. Who would ever follow one of their kind? Wearing all those knots, beads and awards. Really. http://troop430.com/images/Baden-Powell_ggbain-39190_(cropped).jpg.png http://www.creigiau.org.uk/pictures/bpchief.jpg http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/495552402/BP_bigger.jpg http://www.scouts.com.au/images/upload/base/16447638.jpg

"I really dislike adult advancement and awards. I think it sends da wrong message and attracts the wrong sort of people to the uniform. Folks who are a bit more in it for their own ego needs than in it to serve the kids. I've received a dozen or more of those knots and medals (I don't even actually know the number anymore)." Gee, did it take receiving a dozen or more awards to make you realize how much you dislike them? That's not what I would call "quick", Beavah. Good thing we have you to point out who the wrong sort of people who are, who only want the awards. With more than a dozen awards of your own, you aren't one of those people, are you? ;^)

What about the Spa and Lounge?

"Obviously the phrase "The award is available to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature at the district level." can be interpreted a couple of different ways." Yes - correctly and incorrectly. "Just changing the words around clarifies the alternative meaning." Or, the incorrect meaning. I think the statement is clear and doesn't need to be restated to clarify. "...and was awarded because of my many years of service to youth and not because of anything on a district level." So, in other words, just hang around long enough and wait in line for your turn. Yep, that award would carry a lot of respect. Apples and oranges is exactly what I meant. You don't give an apple award to an orange. You give an orange award to an orange. Hence, the name DISTRICT Award of Merit. When you combine the name DISTRICT Award of Merit with the General Information statement, "The award is available to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature at the district level" I find it hard to believe anyone would have trouble understanding the intent of this award.

Twocubdad, Those things might be true in your district, but not in mine. Question: Should we award the Scoutmaster's (Unit Leader's) Award of Merit to the District Advancement Chair? No, it is a unit level Award of Merit, not a District Award. The District Award of Merit should be awarded for service above and beyond at the District level. There are other awards for unit level leaders. The knots are all the same size, just different colors.

Acco40 left some important information out of his post. The application has a "General Information" section just before the "Requirements" which states: The award is available to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature at the district level. See http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33720.pdf

"Those are Symbols of the GOBN." Oh, please. Cry me a river. Our District Committee is made up of volunteers, many of whom have earned the DAM and/or the SB. These GOBs give up a Sunday afternoon every month to sit on EBORs for district Scouts. These GOBs recruit the Day Camp directors to make sure the District Day Camp is held. These GOBs make sure the Webelos Woods event takes place. These GOBs make sure the District Pinewoody Derby takes place. These GOBs put together the training team to offer SM Fundamentals twice a year. These GOBs put together the training team to offer Cub Leader training. These GOBs coordinate School Night for Scouting events at local schools. The GOBs recruit Roundtable leaders to make sure monthly Roundtables are held. They do all this for little more than a pat on the back. They don't get the reward of the gratification of the Scouts that those individual unit leaders do, but realize the work they do helps to make that happen, down river. If awarding them a knot or a medal, usually after years of thankless dedication, makes them part of some evil GOBN, then so be it. For me, my hat is off to them for the work they do.

Sorry to hear about your poor WB experience. Elitism is not part of the program, and, in fact, we teach the exact opposite. One of the first lessons in WB 21st Century is valuing diversity and valuing the opinions of others. As part of the lesson, we would show a movie clip from the end of Casa Blanca, where Bogart shoots the German. Someone asks, "What are we going to do now?" and the officer replies, "Round up the usual suspects." We point out that all too often, that is how things get done in Scouting. Round up the usual suspects. There are several problems with this approach. 1. You burn out your dedicated leaders. 2. You never get any new leaders to get involved to help carry some of the load. 3. You never get any new ideas, and programs become stale. If those elite WBers really paid attention to the course and lessons, they wouldn't act that way. If you run into it again, I would suggest using your best French accent, and hit them with, "Just round up the usual suspects, right?" If you are lucky, they will recognize the reference and maybe remember that lesson.

The question was about starting a Troop from scratch, not inheriting one. I remember how easy things were when we only had one Patrol. The boys were all 11 and they really didn't get the planning, but it was pretty easy to throw everything in a car or two and take off on a trip. Now, with 42 boys and 5 patrols, things get a little more complicated. Luckily our church has two 15-passenger vans they let us use (when available), so we don't have to take a bunch of cars on every trip. They also gave us $2,000 to purchase a new, bigger trailer. We have 41 boys going to Summer Camp, and we take all our food and cooking equipment - we cook in camp. I'm hoping we can get everything in the two trailers we have, and a pick-up or two.

Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it. We started the Troop in Sept. 2007 with 6 boys, who had crossed over into a large Troop in March, 2007. We went to Summer Camp with that Troop, and several other parents and I decided it was time to start our own unit. 1. Your CO. We couldn't have succeeded without a very supportive CO. The church (I'm a member, which helps a lot) had an old equipment trailer from the days when they had a Troop, back in 1993. It needed a lot of work, which the church picked up. They also bought us a new Troop flag, which is pretty expensive. I didn't think we needed much money to get started, and we could support ourselves. I think you need around $1,000 to get started - to buy Patrol equipment (we don't own Troop tents, add more to that number if you want them), and mainly be able to put down deposits on trips. Obviously, you need a place to meet and hopefully store gear. Beyond that, you need a CO who is going to really support you. Our Senior Pastor is constantly praising us, and mentioning our successes. He is our biggest cheerleader. 2. Trained, experienced SM and CC with a strong, clear vision. I was fortunate to grow up in a great Troop with a very demanding SM. Our CC had the same experience, in Virginia. The two of us rarely talk about our shared vision - it just happens. We are on the same page on every part of the program. I reached the rank of Life, he is an Eagle, we were both SPLs in our Troops. We both believe in old-school, traditional Scouting. Patrol Method, mixed-age patrols, backpacking, canoeing, skills, High Adventure, uniforming. We both expect our Scouts to be very active in the program. 3. Dedicated ASMs. A SM can't do it all by himself. He has to have trained, dedicated assistants. We have high standards for our ASMs. They must go through all the Adult Leader training, and then be active with the Troop for one year to be considered for an ASM. The first year, we didn't have any official ASMs, though I had several "in training." We now have 3 fully trained ASMs, and 2 more in training. In addition, we have a couple of dedicated dads who will provide transportation and go camping with us, if need be. Our CC goes on nearly every trip, as well - he loves camping! 4. Supportive parents. The parents have to buy into the program and trust the leaders. We have a strong committee and parents who are willing to support us. We ask a lot of them and their sons, but they understand what we are trying to do. 5. Communication. Whether it is a web page or email group, it has to be easy to access and easy to use. You've got to have a way to quickly and easily reach your Scouts and parents with information. Boy Scouts is so much different than Webelos, I have found I really need to train the parents at least as much as I do the boys. Training the parents usually takes place through email or our web page. Our web page runs us $99/year, a real bargain. 6. Record-keeping. We use TroopMaster, as do most Troops, I would guess. The record-keeping is much more important than in Cubs. You'll spend some money on this, and it is worth every penny. Getting started with a small group is much easier than trying to add it later, when you have grown in size. As SM, you have to understand what you are getting into. Every Tuesday night, I know where I'm going to be from 7:00 - 9:00 PM. I know I'm going to give up a weekend every month for the Troop. I will be at Summer Camp for a week, and will hopefully be attending a High Adventure trip over the summer, as well. I have a job that allows me to take that much time off, as well as for a family vacation. It can be very demanding, so your heart really has to be in it. The upside - it may be the most rewarding thing you ever do, outside of your family and church. If I had to measure the give and take in dollars, for every dollar I put in, I get around $10 back. Not a bad investment. :-)

Stosh, Our Old Fogey Patrol is "for the boys' sake", as you put it. How? For example, we had two new dads on our trip to Chickamauga last weekend. They learned how the patrol method works from being a participating member of the Old Fogey patrol. They had duties on the Duty Roster, just like the rest of the OFs. They learned about the equipment we use (same as the boys, except for the coffee maker) and learned how we clean up (3-pot system). They learned how our Boy Scout Troop camps, and they did it without interfering with the boys' patrols. They saw the kind of mess kits we used, the kind of tents we use. These dads are much farther along in understanding the Patrol Method. When we went on the hikes, the new dads went with us. The older boys went on a 10-mile hike, while our new Scouts completed a 5-mile. The new dads also learned how to orient a map and to use a compass, by listening to the instructions for the boys. I don't see anything wrong with letting them "participate" in a hike through a National Battlefield Park, instead of making them sit in camp. I also don't see anything wrong with the adults "participating" in the Patrol Method in their own campsite. IMO, an informed adult is a good thing for the Troop. Do we, the adults, have fun on camping trips? Absolutely! Do we participate with the boys? Sometimes. We go canoeing and whitewater rafting with them. We go on backpacking trips with them. We enjoy camping as our own patrol. Do we participate in the patrol games and competitions? No, unless requested by the boys. Do we perform a skit at the campfire? Only if requested by the boys. If our program is somehow not "for the boys sake," I must admit I fail to see how. There's no rule against having fun while supporting the boys.

I know some don't like the idea of Adult Patrols, but I think this is one area where they are a positive. If a Troop has a defined "path" into the GOBs, it might help. For us, to be an official member of the Old Fogey Patrol, you are required to have at least 20 nights camping with the Troop (including some nights at Summer Camp), and complete YP and Haz. Weather training. Yes, we have a Patrol flag and patch. The names of the official patrol members are part of the patrol flag. We now have adults who are in the process of "earning" their membership into the patrol. We have a lot of fun with it, and make it a big deal when another Old Fogey joins us. Any adult that goes camping with us becomes an Old Fogey-in-training. They are treated the same as any other patrol member. Hopefully any parent in our Troop will see they are welcome to join us and become part of the group. All they have to do is show up, understand the program, and do their part in the Old Fogey patrol.

One of my WB patrol mates was from a very conservative church, and the church (the CO) wouldn't allow women to go camping with the Troop. This wasn't a matter of the CO allowing it, the CO mandated it.