boleta

Another possibility is that these young men will now quit scouting by their own choice. Sometimes, an act like this, where they clearly know they are violating most parts of the Scout Oath and Law is just the final act of saying "I'm through with Scouting". I really don't know if this is good or bad. Sometimes the kid that needs the program the most is the one that leaves.

Remember,

My 15 year old son got his Gold Eagle Palm by a unanimous vote at the Council Advancement Committee on appeal. The SM added the requirement- show leadership ability "in the troop by holding a position of responsibility" and refused to consider outside activities in addition to leadership in the troop. He attended two BOR's in the troop and an appeal to the Troop Committee Appeal Board (denied at both). After getting the Gold Palm, he resigned from the Troop and is now a Venturer. But he learned the importance of standing up for himself and what was right.

He received a letter of apology from the Troop Committee but this was not signed by the Scoutmaster, Committee Chairman or COR who were all involved in the denial. I still don't think they learned anything from the experience.

I vote for Mason.

I have posted this before.

I sat on a First Class BOR. I was present at the lad's last Summer Camp where I knew he did not attend the offered Orienteering course and class. He got the ASM for his patrol to sign off on the requirement and the SM rubber stamped it at the SMC. I questioned him about it at the BOR and he thought the Map and Compass for 2nd Class was the same as this 1 mile Orienteering course. The BOR was halted and the lad was instructed to complete the course.

ps 3 weeks later, I did a course with him and 2 others who did not take it either. He passed the BOR 1 week later.

torribug

I think you have had excellent advice so far. In addition, consider attending your District Committee meeting so you can see what is going on and also meet your District Commissioner and District Advancement Chairman. I think they will be receptive to your concerns and be able to assist in resolving some of these issues if your Unit Commissioner can't help you.

By the way, I know a kid who joined in Feb. at age 11. He was First Class in Sept. after Summer Camp. He was Start after the next year's SC- age 12. He was Life after the next year's SC- age 13. He earned Eagle at age 16!! Lifesaving was required and was tough! That was me and the year was 1969.

Your Troop is clearly adding to the requirements WHICH IS NOT ALLOWED.

ManyIrons

Make 5 overlapping loops instead of 3. Pull the 2nd loop through the center of each loop to the right and pull the 4th loop to the left. (just like a 3 loop sheepshank where the center loop is the only one that is pulled left and right).

You'll see a square not in the middle when it is done correctly to make a 5 loop sheepshank.

If you can vote and join the Army at 18, you should be considered an adult. This whole problem would be simpler if the Venturer under 18 were considered as "youth" status and the Venturer over 18 as "adult" status. It may complicate the Venturing activities slightly but should still resolve most of the issues about this that I have seen on the Forum.

Remember,

A scout must use the new requirements when he starts the MB. Once he has started it, he can use those requirements even if they are changed later. Or he can decide to switch to the new requirements. He cannot mix the new with the old.

Your old MB books are no good if the requirements have been changed and a Scout has not started on them yet.

FOG

That might be one of the right answers. It is interesting how it might twist if the Troop paid the artist who then donated the money to the CO (non-profit?) and the CO gave the money back to the Troop???

Most people probably would not have bothered and just accepted the artist's gift and left it at that. I wonder how many rules that would violate.

The discussion has been fascinating and off track. I still don't know how to handle the artist donating his skill by painting the trailer ($500 value). Does the CO have to declare this as income?

I think that BSA should consider a don't ask policy when it comes to this issue because of the extreme alienation of some supporting groups. Even FOG says- ya can't tell by lookin'! I agree with BPwannabe@137 that Scouting does not teach sexuality.

OldGreyEagle quotes:

WHEREAS the national officers further agree that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the traditional values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the values of the Oath and Law;

This comes predominantly from the current thought that Homosexuals are not morally straight. When "morally straight" was written by Seaton and Lord B-P, however, it had nothing to do with sexuality. Many homosexuals would say they are just as moral as the next "guy".

Further, the law says Physically Strong and we sure haven't thrown out the large number of obese Scouters (they are everywhere it seems) for gross violation of this part of the Oath.

Although I can' remember where, I have seen the no nickname rule somewhere.

In 2000, my son was one of only 2 boys to join his Troop that year. They had been in Webelos together. In late June the troop went to summer camp. The friend (somewhat fat) got the nickname of Momma Bear by a group of older, mean boys. They were told (by me) to stop when I discovered this no nickname rule. They didn't until the 2nd or 3rd time.

The friend dropped out of the Troop and Scouting by September.

Favorite knots:

5 loop Sheepshank (with a square knot inside) and

Turk's Head (5 sided. Never learned the 7 sided one).

txscoutdad

Great thread. The party line would be that singing for lost items and Suzzie would be hazing. But, the discussion has made me reconsider the party line. I really like the Eamonn's approach to the whole issue. If it is a camp game, then allow players to opt in or out. If it is a troop issue, it should be unanimous to sing or not (private vote so no one is criticised for saying no?).

One man's hazing is another's life lesson on responsibility. (Just like the piercings discussion).

Mutilation is such a negative word. It means damage, injury or maiming. African tribes have women that adorn their lips by inserting wooden rings and think this the height of beauty. Others purposefully create scars on the skin that keloid (a scar that does not stop growing) for the same reason. Those that pierce or tattoo do not consider this to be mutilation at all.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

One man's cult is another man's religion.

One man's mutilation...

So, these contributions and services are really undeclared donations to council? It seems like more trouble than it is worth to let council get involved in these kind of donations. Do we just look the other way and accept the offer? Or should we refuse it and tell the troop they will need to raise the funds in every case?

Sounds like a good idea. And we have 11 1/2 months to work out the details.

This is an interesting discussion but it is raising many more questions than it is answering.

The reality is that Scout Troops get donations in cash and items all the time. How should these be handled? If a local artist offers to paint the Troop Logo on the trailer without charge, and the service would have cost $500, is this income to the Troop? Legally, does it have to be declared and have the Troop (a non legal entity) file an income tax return? HOW IS THIS HANDLED PROPERLY??? How is this different than a patron of the Troop donating the $500 and then paying the artist for the work done?

It happened to me.

Many Councils (like ours) do not require Tour Permits when travelling less than 25 miles from the usual Troop meeting site.  It is still not a bad idea to file one.

In the case of the canoe trip, you must have a float plan as well.

Until morale improves.

Inspirational stories, both. I congratulate both of your sons for trailing the Eagle to success through such challenges.

ps My son and I will be Medical at one of the Sub-camps at the 2005 National Jamboree. Maybe we'll see you there.

FOG, You have an amazing talent for taking a Scout thread and injecting real nastiness. NJCubScouter, lynching is quite different than hanging. I know that FOG's tongue is firmly in cheek. It doesn't make the suggestion any less offensive.

Hey Ed! Note the time and day. We Agree!!!!

Most Useful - Tautline hitch.

Use the Most - Tautline hitch.

The main players in the Forum seem to be somewhat played out after the controversy of the True Religion thread. 20 PAGES!! After all, it was very provocative.

I also find myself 2nd guessing some of my comments, especially when I am not sure what the "official" answer is. Clearly this is because of the absence of the Forum Resident Expert (FRE). You know who he is. Before, I could answer and know that the party line would be represented in the discussion. Now, I am just not sure....

Sorry, txscoutdad, you are still violating BSA policies against hazing. Continue it if you wish, but it is still wrong.