boleta

I understand both sides of the argument here. Eamonn makes a very reasonable point.

But, if my Venturers decide to wear a BSA campaign hat because they think it is cool, then they can and will. I am just their advisor. I advise. That's the difference in Venturing. It says that the uniform is completely up to them to decide what it will be.

ps This would never happen in my Crew. They hate wearing hats in general and would probably wear ballcaps if they had to.

I have assisted with advice to the Scout or as a Troop Committee member who reviewed at least 7 Eagle Leadership Projects in the last 3 years. All of these Scouts were responsible for funding their projects. Scout accounts are absolutely not allowed. They must raise the money through a fundraiser or donations to the project in money or materials. Parents or relatives are not allowed to give donations.

The project includes feeding the volunteers if it goes all day and includes a lunch break. Feeding the volunteers could be- bring your own bag lunch, I will arrange to supply the water in a cooler... Tony's pizza has been asked and will donate lunch in the form of pizza and drinks... I have raised the money and will pay for... or any other of a number of ways to feed the group. Having mommy and daddy pay for the meal does not show much leadership in my opinion. Remember, this is a leadership project.

However, all of this should be discussed in advance and is considered part of the project. If the young man is already an Eagle, I presume it is too late to quibble.

You can edit your post within an hour of posting it by clicking on the note icon a the top of the posting after it is placed.

Sorry this is so long, but...

When my son bridged to Boy Scouts, I became an Assistant Scoutmaster to a very well organized but quiet SM who was there for only 6 months. 3 months later, at summer camp, the 15 year old son of the Committee Chairman threw a butane lighter into a campfire on the 2nd night to enjoy the explosion. Unknown to me he had been disciplined by the Troop Committee for the very same thing the year before. Unable to control my anger about this dangerous act, I took over the emergency meeting of the entire Troop and made all of the 14 Scouts raise their right hand and repeat the Scout Oath and Law. The SM was present but made no attempt to intervene in my disciplinary session. I asked if anyone did not believe in what they were saying and if they did not, the could go home right then. 2 or 3 of the boys were hoodlums in Scout uniforms but they all agreed to behave and the rest of the week went fairly well. 2 years later, these troublemakers were all gone.

I had been a Cubmaster before joining this Troop. It took me 2 years and a new SM before I realized I was not a CM anymore. The new SM had a way with the kids. The hoodlums were gone and we were left with normal teenagers. The SM was a teacher and could sit down with these kids and help them with their misbehavior. I could not. When I realized that I could not let go and let these guys act "normally", I discovered that I could not continue as an ASM. With me, this would never be a boy led Troop. I would step in when not necessary. I would want to teach them the "right" way to do everything when they needed to learn from their mistakes. I expected them to follow the Oath and Law to the letter. I expected them to be responsible for their actions even for fairly minor and picky things.

I became a Committee Member and was very happy with my new role in the Troop. I did not have to sit through the chaos of a Troop meeting (which I could not stand). I no longer went to the PLC and give advice and pointers (not asked for or needed by SM or boys). I could help with the running of the adult leadership of the Troop and make things happen. I was the adult advisor for the Naval Academy trip 3 years in a row and assisted with many other activities including writing a new Troop Guidebook. I grew up a lot.

The start of this thread reminds me of me when I first became involved in a disorganized and troubled Scout Troop. I did not understand normal teenage boy behavior or how to deal with it. Many of the posts to this thread will get you on the right track, but they are difficult things for some of us to do. There may be other roles in Scouting for you if, like me, you have trouble with the "normal" behavior of teenage boys.(This message has been edited by boleta)

My sincere apology to OGE and Hops. I was only able to read this thread when I posted and it seemed from the comments that no explanation was given.

I was unable to read that last post of the Lost Scout II thread but now agree that the managers did their part.

Ooops.

Back in July when a number of threads were closed and suspensions occurred, I posted:

Please consider this.

I would like to ask the managers to give us an idea of why a thread is being closed. We can only alter our behavior if we know what it is that we are doing that is prompting a thread closure.

My recommendation is to have the last post in the thread to be from the manager explaining why the thread is being closed. This should benefit everyone so we can learn from experience.

I was under the impression that our Managers agreed to do this at the time.(This message has been edited by boleta)

Significant segments of our society are now single parent with women being the only adult. Most experts agree that this is not the ideal situation and most kids do better with 2 parents and a male role model when boys are involved. This is not conservative or liberal philosophy, it is reality.

The best Advancement Chair in a Troop that I have seen was a woman. The best Committee Chair that I have seen was a woman. Women have been involved at every level of Scouting that I have participated in. At the same time, boys absolutely need men involved in Scouting to show what it is to be a responsible, honest, and trustworthy adults.

Hey! I agree with Rooster!

(This message has been edited by boleta)

There are many reasons that the sponsor of an activity might want to restrict it by age or rank or both. Safety is one. Experience is another.

The USNA NESA Jambo held each year in Annapolis requires the Scout to be 14 AND at least First Class to participate. A Scout that was 13 could attend in years past if Star or above. It was changed to 14 when the number of applicants exceeded by far the number of spaces available. Scouts over 14 and First Class are more mature and do better in the courses offered. Over 1600 Scouts attended this year. NESA tells Troops that if they violate the rule (ie, they are not trustworthy), then they will not be invited back.

In the case of this thread, the organizers can restrict the activity for any reason they choose. If a Troop violates the request, then they should not be invited back.(This message has been edited by boleta)

Sometimes it helps to understand the requirements if you know what they were in the past and how they have changed.

When the wording of requirements changes from year to year it is for a reason. National feels that an ambiguity can be clarified. Or a requirement that is too difficult and exclusionary can be simplified or given an alternative i.e. Lifesaving or Emerg. Preparedness instead of just Lifesaving.

Hunt presents a reasoned argument, but the current requirement states ANY school. This is a change from the past when it was less clear as to what school could benefit from the project. Now, if it says any school, I would think that any school would do.

Perhaps JD is correct that a PM should be sent when tempers rise and the conflicts start to escalate. At least a brief pause would allow those involved in the disagreement to review privately what the main issues are. An agreement between them to post all or part of the PMs could be made if they feel the private discussion is relevant to the thread or will advance it. But, I think the PM should not be posted if either disagrees that it should be public.

Excellent suggestions all. I will pass them along. Thanks!

I did receive a PM from the person I offended. This thread was actually spun before I read the private message.

I thought most of what he had to say to me was appropriate for public consumption and would have benefitted those that read but don't post on the Forum (which is most of the users of Scouter.com).

That would be my main concern with PMs. The rest don't get the benefit of the conversation.

I continue to be amazed how the thoughts we try to convey in e-mails and in forums such as this can be misconstrued. The most difficult thing to convey is emotion. Over the past several years, I have witnessed severe misunderstandings from e-mail communication when someone feels insulted by an e-mail.

In the thread that this is being spun from, a new, but considerate member of the Forum (who has good advice and experience to convey) took great offense at my message and the way I wrote it. My last post in that thread was an apology.

But, I have seen this all too often both on the Forum and in many other areas where communication seems very difficult when e-mail alone is used. Not only that, it seems that the problems escalate out of hand when the "conversation" continues. (positive feedback cycles are destructive in nature)

I am spinning this new thread to get comments from the Forum as to their experience with this phenomenon.

Careful! Showing that photo to the girls might be considered hazing.

So much for a conversation. Pretty thin skinned and sensitive JD. I will accept the reply of BobWhite's as a satisfactory response to your concerns.

You are correct that I did not quote the entire requirement for the Leadership project. But I did quote the part that was relevant to this thread.

I did not mean to insult you or anyone who disagrees with me in my posts and apologize if it was taken that way. But you have yet to confirm looking at the current Requirement book which is all that I have asked. I hope I am not being too redundant in saying that the front cover of the book states that these are the OFFICIAL requirements for the BSA program for 2004.

My original post on this thread used the 2004 Requirement book to explain why the proposed Eagle project was acceptable and was within the guidelines of the requirement.

John, you start your reply "boleta, and all you rule book readers". I am sorry, I don't get it. If you don't believe in the BSA program as defined by BSA, why follow the program at all? There has to be some basis for the requirements. Why not use the most up to date, official, and correct version of the requirements as found in the 2004 Requirement book? Do you just want to make up your own program? Honestly! If you don't have the book, or haven't looked at it at your Scout Store, then do so. Then accept it! These are the requirements for 2004. Not any others. This will only clarify the requirements for the Scouts so everyone is on the same page.

The reason so many CURRENT Boy Scout Requirement books are sold each year, is because they are the OFFICIAL requirements for all ranks and merit badges for that year.

All members of the Forum who are participating in this discussion should get a copy of the current book (2004) and read the inside cover where this is clearly explained. My post is the exact quote of the requirement and is the wording that should be used for completion of the Leadership project.

The Workbook is to be followed in the form of the presentation of the project. This is so the reviewers of the project- Scoutmaster, Troop Committee, and District Advancement Chair have a standardized way to evaluate each project. It is also used to see if the Scout can follow directions. Many Scouts are sent back to redo the presentation for an excellent leadership project because it is not in the proper form.

This is not that difficult guys. Get the 2004 Requirement book and read it. It supercedes all other requirement sources including the Boy Scout Handbook. The only major exception is a merit badge that is started before changes in the current year. The old requirements can be used.

You can do it any way you want to. Doesn't mean it is right. I am simply telling you what the Requirement book states.

Now I will sit back and listen to the incorrect arguments about why I am wrong about this. These are just rationalizations to justify the way you are doing things even in the face of a straightforward presentation of the facts. I guess that is what makes the world go around in such an interesting way.(This message has been edited by boleta)

The 2004 Boy Scout Requirements book supercedes all other sources for advancement requirements, including the Boy Scout Handbook and the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook. The ESLSPW must be used but the 2004 Requirements MUST be followed as they are the Official Requirements.

This book states:

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community.

Now Ladies and Gentlemen, The flagpole and its beneficiary are fine and fit the requirements. If this project came before me at the Troop Committee, I would ask the Scout to consider adding landscaping of the approach to the area, a bench and guard rails or ropes to set the area off- only if this was OK with the institution benefitting from the project. The project can be made as hard or easy as the committee desires. The point is to develop leadership in the Scout and to push him to handle the changes that occur in any project.

I am a Merit Badge Counselor for 10 different merit badges. I assisted with Astronomy MB on Monday at the invitation of a Troop with 8 boys who were interested in the subject. They were thrilled to see craters and mountains on the moon with my 4 1/2 inch reflector. It was great.

I wear 8 square knots on my District Committee Chairman uniform. One for Arrow of Light as a Cub, one for Eagle as a Boy Scout, the Den Leader Award, the Cubmaster Award, the District Award of Merit, the Scouter Training Award, the Scouter's Key and the James E. West Memorial Award. In our Council, when the requirements for the Leadership Awards are completed, the Scouter can complete the Progress Record and submit it to the District Training chair who is responsible for submitting it to Council. I want my fellow Scouters at the District and Council levels to know what I have done to get where I am.

As a new Advisor to a Venturing Crew, I wear the Arrow of Light and Eagle square knots in addition to the District Award of Merit on my uniform and no others. I considered not putting any of them on this uniform as I questioned their relevence to my new position.

I agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread that, for MB counselors, the reward is the joy of helping the Scout complete the badge. I see no reason to have a square knot for this activity. There are so many other ways to achieve recognition and "earn" a square knot, AND we need the help!

I am also a District Committee Chairman. We have the fantastic individual members of the Committee who do the heavy lifting, just as Eamonn did here. They have 2 or 3 jobs and do them well. But, they are overextended and need help. I find the hardest part of the job to be getting interested members of the District to get active.

BSA has created a dysfunctional arrangement. The Committee is supposed to be made up of the Charter Organization Representatives. At each meeting we have 3 or 4 CORs out of 20 attend. This, in spite of repeated calls and e-mails asking for their attendance. I propose regularly that CORs that do not attend the District Committee meeting be appointed an assistant from their unit who wants to and can attend. This to no avail.

All of the other members are Scouters who are interested in Training or Programs or Membership and do all of the work. They are hard to find, difficult to replace and need help.(This message has been edited by boleta)

Sounds like you did a fantastic job. Now the real challenge begins. Get 4 or 5 more adults to be your assistants so you can spread the "fun" around.

Benjamin Franklin had some very interesting thoughts about wealth and avarice. After a certain point in accumulating wealth, Franklin felt that it should be distributed (by the owner) for the betterment of society.

The wealthy in this country who use their wealth this way get it. Those who just want more for the sake of accumulating it, don't.

A very wealthy friend of mine just built a 12,000 square foot home for himself and his wife. All the children are grown. I have been trying to get him to make a contribution to our Council endowment for several years with no success. (It is a very nice house.)

Mark Twain said, "It is amazing how much my parents learned when I turned 21." All teenagers know it all and their parents seem to know nothing.

I think Dad has to back off completely and let the Scout figure it out. He partly doesn't do the job so he can get on Dad's last nerve, which also gives him attention, albeit negative attention. This is easier said than done. Scout's behavior is extremely aggravating to Dad making it very difficult for him not to intervene.

All meetings in BSA are supposed to be open to parents who wish to observe.

I agree with Bob White about the principle of the PLC. It is frustrating for the ASM who wants to give his 2 cents, but that is not the purpose of this meeting.

How do you reconcile the open meeting "rule"?(This message has been edited by boleta)

Sorry about that.

I was at the hospital when I posted and it cut me off. The Venturing Crew took me out of town.

Several SPLs have had the same problem with controlling behavior at the troop meetings. They are tired of putting "signs up" repeatedly throughout the meeting and a 40 minute program takes an hour and a half. Even a good program is difficult to deliver when there are constant interruptions.

I have heard about a discipline program where a system similar to soccer is used. Disruptive behavior (such as interrupting) results in a yellow card warning. 3 yellow cards in a meeting results in expulsion from the meeting. A blue card is given for more serious problems (such as violations of the Oath and Law). A Red card is given for serious problems such as profanity or fighting and result in immediate expulsion from a meeting. All of these incidents would be reviewed by the Troop Committee.

I have heard that this system can be run by the youth without adult involvement but do not know anyone who has used it. Please don't tell me, train them properly in the first place. All of these SPLs have been through JLT and Pathfinders with continued frustrations at meetings.

What do the Forum members recommend? Without adults running the meeting or constantly stepping in to restore order, how do your SPLs control the chaos? Input from the SPLs who read this would be helpful.