Bob White

Just a suggestion, Do your job and let others do there. As a den leader your responsibility on any pack activity is to lead the Den you are assigned to. You have your own training, and your own repsonsibilities thatt come with your position. Let someone on the pack administration take BALOO and be repsonsible for the Pack, while you focus on the Den.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

In the last 6 years the BSA has revised or completely rewritten every merit badge handbook in the current library as well as added 6 new ones in the past 8 years. That seems like a pretty huge effort to keep the information fresh wouldn't you say? How many program changes the BSA initiates will not improve the local program. If the leaders in the unit you serve aren't following the program now even after the changes made in the last 8 years, why will more changes for change sake help? Let me ask this. If the problem with membership is the lack of avowed homosexual members, is it the suggestion then that avowed homosexual leaders will be better than today's leaders and so be able to deliver the program better? Are you saying that avowed homosexual scouts would be easier to entertain than todays scouts so better retention can be achieved without improving the local program delivery. Or is the belief that the three times in scoutig when we have the most significant losses is tied not to the local program, but to three specific times when parents suddenly realize that we do not have avowed homosexuals as members? How do membership changes improve leadership or program. Or, are we just looking for ways to bring in more people so that more people can quit? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The issue here is not homosexuality that is causing the units to be dumped. The issue is legal harassment from the ACLU which has had a 25 year battle against the BSA, this is simply their latest ploy. School districts have enough financial problems without expensive and protracting legal proceedings as the ACLU has promised to begin against them. They are being forced to abandon the Scouting program from a simply practical financial standpoint. This is not a social statement by the schools, manny teachers and school administrators throughout the country are scout volunteers. I would wager that you will find more scouts serving their community on school boards then you will find ACLU members doing the same. This is a politically motivated attack by a politically motivated ACLU and nothing more. I am confident that your pack will be able to continue to serve the youth in your community with a new charter organization very quickly. BW

my problem in answer your question Aaron is that you don't seem to be wearing any scout uniform at all. You just wear scout shirts. Think of it like this if you wore a football jersey with jeans are you wearing a football uniform or just a jersey? Wearing a scout shirt, and wearing a Scout Uniform, are not the same the same things. So if your question is, do other troops dress like your troop?Unfortunatley yes, some do, but many others wear scout uniforms. One person willing to set a personal example of good uniforming could make a difference in the unit you serve.

prairies while I understand your opinion the fact is thaqt it does match the facts. Laqck of information is stil your greatest detractor. Please read p[ages 1-5 of the BSA Isignia Guide. developinh and controling the legal use of the uniform is the responsibility of thenational office. Making the uniform work in a unit, like with any of the other Methods of Scouting is YOUR JOB as a unit leader. The BSA designs and distributes the tools, you have to have the detremination and skill to use them.

Or, request that the council/district Advancement Committee fulfill their job responsibilities so that you are free to do yours.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

BALOO is needed to take a Pack family camping. If you are preparing for Webelos Den camping then you need Webelos Leader Outdoor Training and not BALOO. Hope this answers your question. BW

Its a good answer when you remember what your personal responsibilities to scouting are. They do not include determining or approving national policies or program. As commissioners our job is to support those decisions not make them. The fact that representatives of the chartering organizations that contract to use the program, reviewed and approved this policy, is all the detail needed to do the job you accepted. This is not majority rules. This is a representative community. Every council has a member or members that make up the BSA national council. Do you know who they are in your area? If it is not you, then it is someone else. They have a job to do and it is different than yours. Being a unit leader is no different. We are there to deliver the scoutng program to the yourh FOR the chartering organization. Our role is to deliver the BSA program not to determine it. If this was not a program you liked then you made a bad choice agrreeing to join it and deliver it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Thirty years ago the entertainment demands of a scout aged boy were very different. In today's world if you are not "the best show in town" then you cannot expect to hold the attention of a scout for very long. If you are a talking-head program then the boys will go elsewhere. Theese are not machines designed for sit and listen. Scout aged boys need physical activities and adventure. You need to be more fun that a computer game or the unit will fail. There seems to a growing number of scouters who would rathher be "in charge " of a scouting, rather than delivering a scouting program.

That is a perfect example backpaqcker of a post that has no actual information. It's sole purpose is for you to take another shot at me. It shares nothing about the program. I don't understand how that benefits any poster or this forum other than the persoanl satisfaction that it obviously gives to you. With luck others will agree and we can soon see the end of such posts. It would be nice if it was by your own choice.

So what? No one is making them join. It is a private organization for community groups and families who share values that are taught by the BSA. It was never meant for everbody, it was meant for anybody who wanted to share the same ideals. There have always been people who didn't like what Scouting stood for, here and in other countries. There are people who do not like religions, there are peole who do not like a law abiding society. why do you worry about what other people like? Are scouters so fickle that they join to be popular with people who do not share their values? Or to help scouts to learn and grow stronger in them? If you believe in the values of scouting then that is all that should matter, if you do not agree then who was it that forced you to join? That person did you a grave injustice. Are there more people who disagree with Scouting now then there ever were? Well probably..there are more people in the world now than ever before so statistically that would almost have to be true. But don't think that just because people in your community don't respect you that the entire nation is that way. This country has always been made of a variety of pockets of character and values. If you are unsure of that just remember that there are millions of families involved in scouting today, and that it has outlasted other social changes and forces long before this. Any idea how long the this uproar over homosexual membership has been going on? 25years. An entire generation has grown up in scouting and gone from Bobcat to to scoutmaster through it all, and yet the program goes on. All this doom and gloom outlook has to affect your ability to deliver a positive, cheerful program. Why allow outside forces to dictate your values? Why should the BSA allow outside forces to dictate its values.

I am sure you know then Backpacker that even if you could are hitting your numbers it still requires a specific amount of time and you have to complete your training to becomje a SR. performance allows you the opportunity to stay around long enough but tenure and Professional Development completetion is what moves you to this first step up. How do I learn all this stuff if I was never a professional? I'll bet you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

Re submission I am curious at to what evidence anyone has that the job given the task force and its volunteer members of charter organization representatives was not done in a serious, thoughtful, and conscientious manner? I understand that there are those who think ill of any effort beyond their control I scouting be that district council or national. However, what actual evidence do you have? I would also like to know what makes any unit volunteer feel they are due any explanation by the BSA? We agreed to follow the program, but that does not give any of us the authority to determine it. We were selected by the CO to serve the CO.

Gern, what in your opinion has the biggest effect on whether or not a scout and his family enjoy scouting if not the quality of the unit meetings? Who is responsible for your next meeting?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am curious at to what evidence anyone has that the job given the task force and its volunteer members of charter organization representatives was not done in a serious, thoughtful, and concsiensious manner? I understand that there are those who think ill of any effort beyond their control i scouting be that district council or national. But what actual evidence do you have? I would also like to know what makes any unit volunteer feel they are due any explaination by the BSA? We agreed to follow the program, but that does not give any of us the authority to determine it. We were selected by the CO to serve the CO.

Cub Scouting is designed to be, and is most effective when the boys meet once a week, three to four den meetings and one pack meeting each month. While fewr but longer meetings may fit an adults preference3 more the program is not designed to teach adults. Children at this age require more repetition and exposure to information than once every two weeks if the information is to be retained. Plus, longer meetings conflict with a childs attention span at this age. The best plan to follow is the one laid out for cub leaders in the program helps book, at least three den meetings and one pack meeting each month.

My recommendation would be that if you feel the scouts behavior is not an example of living his everday life according to the principles of the Scout Oath and Law that you not sign his Scout Spirit requiremnet. Have the scoutmaster's conference and after hearing from the scout, if you are still unconvinced, then tell him the reasons you will not sign, but offer him the opportunity to meet with the Board of Review. You are allowed to meet with the Board prior to them beginning their session with the scout. explain to them in detail your concerns and what specific, measurable actions you feel need to be completed by the scout to successfully complete this requirement. Ask them to discuss these concerns with the scout and see if they agree unanimously to advance him at this time or not. Then be willing to let the board determine for themselves if the requirement was completed, or if the scout will be required to complete the action plan determined by the board.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Only a speech at a commissioners college from a regional commissioner saying that the loss is not in recuitment numbers according the BSA analysis but in retention rates at three specific program periods. The problem is not recruitment, kids still want to be cub scouts. The problem is in keeping them at crticial times in their advancement. All three relate to program delivery. Which brings us back to unit program and its dependency on trained leaders willing to follow the program. The council I am in reflects that. Our recruitment has grown nearly every year the past few years, the challenge is keeping ahead of the losses occured at the same time that national has forcasted. If the problem were membership policies we would have far lower recruitment numbers causing the dip rather than loss of current members causing it. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The sybols and names of the BSA are trademarked and like any trademark you need permission of the owners to use them. Normally if you are using the emblems for the unit use only, signs nesletters etc, you would not need persmission, but if you are making a uniform piece then tah is another mater. Only the BSA or ots licensed represenative the council can do that. You do not have the authority to make a BSA "uniform". If thhe shirt is for caual wera and it has only troop information then you can do what ever your CO approves. But if you are making a unifrm pieve it has to have one or more of the three elements and the use of the trademark emblems needs approval. If your council does not care what you do that is their choice, but they can do what they want about it because they are the licensed representative of national.

When read objectively the link told you a number of things all related to prairie scouters misconceptions.The post showed that A. That national does discuss and review this topic B. That this is not a new position as the release explains that the BSA "re-affirms" their position. C. That it was taken seriously enough to create a task force to investigate it. d. That the task force consisted of representatives of the Charter Organizatins of scouting e. It tells you when. That it was a fairly recent review, (yes when looking at the history of the organization three years is recent) f. and most importantly it tells you who made the decison. Not Professionals..."The board, the relationships committee, and the special task force are all comprised of volunteer members of the BSA. So you see it gave quite a bit of information. Bob White

My apologies the last line was not intended as a personal message to green but as an explaination of the problem.

Hunt, it is from a combination of several sources, the insignia guide, the sea scout and Venturing manuals, council uniforming information, years of experience making patches and t-shirts for various councils. To be a "uniform" piece the item must carry one or more trademark insignias of the BSA. The best evidence of this I can offer is the BSA catalog or on line scout shop. You will note that every uniform shirt, t-shirt and polo shirt along with every hat or neckerchief carries one or more of the three elements I mentioned. Since only the BSA or it's local representative agency the Council, can approve the use of the emblems the designs are supposed to be aproved by either the national or council office. When a council places an order this is not a problem the approval is understood. But when a unit places an order using a BSA trademark reputable companies ask for written council approval to reproduce the trademarks just as with any other trademarked item. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

DEs are not made SR. DEs based on "all their efforts" it s based on time served and training completed. This just helps to highlight the vast amount of misinformation and misconceptions that fuel these kinds or things. If you don't understand the small stuff how will the big stuff make any sense? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Having been involved in a couple such cases I am troubled by green sm's account. If he knows that it is a rumor why is he paying attention to it? The actual problem could easily be something entirly different. While he may be curious as to what is going on, curiosity does not outweigh the scouts right to privacy or the BSA's obligation to confidentiality on behalf of the scout. I guarantee you the scout knows fully why these actions were taken against him as do his parents, and they do not have to say to anyone else what they know. They are welcome to use the BSA confidentiality to say "we don't know". We had a SM who we removed for violation of the YP policies. there was no accusation of impropriety but an upcoming event was in violation of the polices. He was told in writing not to hold the activity and he did anyway. He was told exactly what rules were being broken before and after in writing and removed from scouting. SUCH A FUSS he raised. He said he had no idea what was going on. that no one was telling him anything other than he was out, that he NEVER did anything wrong, and of course HE was going to sue EVERYBODY! WE said nothing at the district or council level to ANYONE. This was a confideential matter between this SM and the council SE and it was NOBODY ELSES BUSINESS. He never appealed and he never sued. He fussed for a few weeks and then quietly went away. Neither is the case anyones business but the family and the SE. I can expect anyone who trys to undermine the confidentialty due the scout and his family, will be removed from membership. Writing a letter of support will not be punished, nor will it likely alter anything. But talking publicly will be punished. Write the letter and then keep still about it. It is a private matter and no about of concern or curiosity will change that.

fgoodwin, I do not know if you were at the jamboree or not, but the first reports were that scouts drove tent stakes into underground line, Then it was that a vehicle drove into a power pole, then it was 8 dead in an explosion, then it was scouts from Indiana, then as it was said that adults from Alaska helping to sett up a staff tent,etc etc. Scouters are horrible gossips it seems. I was very pleased that the group I was with stayed quiet until after the directors briefing the next day and we had some info. Then wednesday we met a member of the contigent and got more details. Bottom line, regardless of tent count, the BSA was not involved in the cause and responded quickly and compassionately to the needs of the scouts and their families.