Bob White

If you stop to think about it most volunteers only own 1 or maybe two BSA resources. Some own several and perhaps some really sick puppy has a private scout shop in their garage with every available resource.(no I don't) The reason your not notified of every change is that not every one is applicable to you. MOST trainers or commissioners will tell you that the best way to keep up the the latest version of the G2SS is to use the online version. It will always be the latest version. Now as I have shared in the past you do not need to have the G@SS memorized. Unless you are planning to to every activity of the G2SS at once there is no need to know its entire content at once. Here is what you do. Once every 6 months to a year print it off and take it with you on activities as a resource. Does the Den want to do a bike hike? Then first read the section on cycling. Troop want to go shoot rifles, first read the section on firearms. Family camping, read the related sections. The on-line version is always the most current. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ Here are a few other tips. If you are a cub leader before the new program year begins check to see if your handbooks have been updated. If you are a scoutmaster once a year check and see if a new version is out. READ scouting magazine, many times update are announced there. GO TO Roundtable, many times updates are announced there. TAKE supplemental Training, many times updates are announced there. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The truth is jhnky you have only one thing that you are mad about and you are trying to discredit the entire BSA program because of it. The Council in Chicago is selling land they own and you don't want them to and they aren't listening to you. GEE! I can't image why?

Scouting is indeed for the youth (there are girls in scouting too). But it gets to the youth through "DEDICATED" leaders. You cannot put on a show while people can see you in uniform and then disparage the program out of uniform and be taken seriously as being 'dedicated'. It is not disagreeing with the BSA that gets you in trouble, it's how you disagree. You also have to accept that just because you ask for change does not mean the answer will be yes. The program isn't going to change just because YOU want it to. Know when to stop. Make your choice to be a dedicated scouter or a dedicated non-member welcome to openly say what you want. But stop thinking you have some inalienable right to do both, because you don't. If you want to be one person in uniform and another out just remember that it's your choice of deception, no one (not even the BSA) made you make that choice.

The requirement is not designed for units of any type. like with all other requirements it is designed for the scout as an individual. As you can see by the requirement there are no favorites involved. It is a simple concept either talk to an existing unit member about becoming active again, or talk to a non-member about joining. It doesn't require the boy to join it only requires that the scout put forth an effort to grow the troop. In Cub scouts we teact that the Cub Scout helps the Pack to Go. This is merely an extension of that at the troop level. It helps the new scout to learn and practice their responsibility to take a role in the health and growth of the unit. What rational reason could a unit leader have for not supporting this? After all, God forbid that the BSA should require you to ask a boy to join...right.

I guess whether it is scoutlike depends on which side of the decision you are on. If I come home and find you in my house attacking my son and I pick up the fireplace poker and beat you severly aroundt the head and shoulders I would bet that you would not see that as Scoutlike. And yet to my family I would be seen as Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Brave. If you are volunteer at the zoo and I as the zoo director find that although you do your volunteer work just find, after work you say terrible things about the zoo to others, do I not have authority to say "you know what we don't need your help any longer." If you came to chuch every sunday and put on your choir robe and sang all the notes just right, but outdide of church you spoke against your religion and in your personal life did not follow the values of the church, are you not hypocrital for wanting to be seen by others for someone you really are not? This is not about whether the BSA is being scoutlike, it is about whether the hypocritical volunteer is being scoutlike. The BSA says they are not and so removes the conflict by letting you leave. Packsaddle I am not predjudiced I am discriminating. I did not pre-judge anything you said, I read it and then I determined if it was good or bad, I discriminated. I chose that what you wrote was not good. There is nothing wrong somepne doing that, in fact the purpose of the Scouting program is to develop in us the ability to make ethical decisions based on the values of scouting. My opinion is that to wear the uniform in the light of day but criticize the BSA in the dark is unethical. So Hunt, based on the values of scouting if you are not trustworthy and loyal in your support, if you are not friendly and courteous in your methods to resolve your disagreement, if you are not obedient adressing the problem through the organization and not in public, if you are not brave enough to stand for the values of scouting and not just hide inside the uniform, then in fact you are the one being unscoutlike, not the BSA when they allow you to leave. Does that explain it better?

I have not repeatedly brought up that unit's membership on the forum. I did so only in a thread that was related to that discussion. Packsaddle, what I do not understand is that give the appearance of sharing the values of scouting in the light of day but then disagree in the shadows where you cannot be recognized and you think that is more honorable. It seems that the appearance of being a scouter is more important to you than having the values of scouting. jhkny, No one with half an oncde of civility in them buys into your tripe of comparing an organizations ability to expect its volunteers members to speak well of the group to that of nazi Germany. That is just sick. Hunt, What I believe is that for an adult to choose to join an organization and remain a member but publicly or privately criticize it rather than to take POSITIVE steps to learn about the organization and address the problem with those who have authority over it is; Disloyal,unhelpful, unfriendly, discourteous, disobedient, and at times cowardly.

Wow,I got three people arguing three differnt interpretations of the same post and you think I can't stand the heat? I have put up with some folks tripe for years now. What I can't stand are people pretending to support the values of scouting when in fact they just wear the uniform that represents Scouting's values when in truth they disagree or reject those values. What I dislike are posters who falsify information and base anti-scouting rants on those ficticious statements. What annoys me is scouters who do not know the program after YEARS of membership, who then take offense when the results of their work are examined off an Internet site they invited us to look at. How can you say that I "exploited" information that a scouter asked us to view? No one forced him to dislose the membership situation that existed in HIS unit. Why Hunt is your disgust not focused on the unit that chased so many scouts away rather than on me for noting that they had left? The freedom of speech that jhkny, packsadlle,and a few others are complaining about has nothing to do with membership in the BSA or any other organization. You would think that people who teach citizenship might have some understanding of that. You would think that adults would not join or remain in an organization whose rules and values they do not accept. Sometimes the BSA has to give them the opportunity to go find a group whose values they can openly support since they are unable to make the decision on their own.

Why would you criticize the BSA for bad press? Do you actually believe that the BSA controls what the press does? Isn't a flurry just a short burst not a prolonged activity. Do you really think that the program does more harm than good...and yet you remain a volunteer in it? Is it really more important to some that they be seen as a member of scouting yet secretly disagree with its values and policies. Where is the honor in that? No one said the BSA was perfect. How much better are you to choose to be a member yet not support it?

Hunt, You have shared a bounty of misinformation in one post. "Now you're criticizing somebody who took your own advice?" I never told anyone to join or remain in an organization whose values and rules they disagree with. I said not to worry about other peoples responsibilities. "Not for violating it, but merely suggesting that it should be reconsidered and changed? You think that's Scoutlike?" I think not following the rules and not addressing your concerns to the people who have the authority to institute the changes you seek is a waste of everyones time and can reach the point of disobedient and disloyal. But what I think has nothing to do with what the rules are. "As for anonymity, I would remind you, Bob, that you have divulged information about other posters that you thought would discredit their opinions That NEVER happened. If you are refering to the time I questioned a posters rapidily declining unit membership, I will remind you that HE posted his web-site address and invited people to vist on NUMEROUS occassions. I accepted that invitation and asked him about what was there. I did not violate any anonimity, he publicly posted the information and asked us to look at it. "Finally, unless your name is actually Bob White, I don't see your name at the bottom of your posts, or in your profile." SO WHAT? Unlike what Packsaddle posted about himself, I have not chosen a handle to hide what I think or believe. The opinions and information I post here is no different than what I say publicly to and about scouting. I have not and would not pose as a member of an organization whose values I did not share or accept. I would not belong to a group and then in the shadows stand and criticize it. I have no need to conceal what I think (or do) from the BSA at any level. So though filled with emotion, your post lacks accuracy. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's likely less of what you do not control and more of you choose to not accept. Speech is a right, membership is a privilege. The right to free speech says that the government will not pass a law that will abridge your freedom of speech. It does not say that an organization you disagree with must keep you as a volunteer. That in fact has nothing to do with the freedom of speech. Your right to say what you please does not guarantee you the privilege of membership. Your revocation of membership does not remove your right to continue to voice your opinion OUTSIDE of membership. I cannot fathom why anyone would choose to remain in an organization where they felt that their personal values were so at odds that they would hide what they believe in order to remain being seen by others as a member of that organization. Is being seen by others as a "scouter" more important than having others see you for what you really believe in? Now I 'm sure you don't see it that way. I am sure you are quite comfortable with who you are...and yet...you admit to only revealing your real opinion and values under anonomity. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There are also people who do not view shoplifting inexpensive items as illegal but they are wrong too. While scale of the crime may have an effect on the degree of punishment it has no effect as to the illegality of the crime. It is not that untrained leaders aren't protected, it's that neglegent leaders aren't protected. Drivers should obey the speed limit whether they are on a scout activity or not. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am aware that the thread started to talk about liability protection but several posts so far have confused elements of accident insurance with that of the BSA liability umbrella. For instance, the liability umbrella protects charter organizations, and registered adults from financial harm stemming from lawsuits against them for decisions they make, and actions they take, as scout leaders that lead to personal injury or property damage. Now what in the world would a scout being in uniform (or not) have to do with that? The age old rumor was that a scout needed to be in uniform during transportation for ACCIDENT insurance to be in-force, not liability. This is of course not true. The other confusion is that the G2SS had to be followed for a scout's medical bills to be covered by ACCIDENT insurance. Again not true. Following the G2SS is an adults responsibility and the scout will not be denied medical coverage if injured because an adult screwed up. LIABILITY insurance is self-insured by the BSA ACCIDENT insurance is provided by other insurance carriers (Mutual of Omaha in this council as an example) Here is how they work, In the case that a scout is injured on a campout his primary (family) insurance coverage would be in force to pay his medical bills. The secondary (BSA) coverage would pay the deductable back to the family and would cover ANY medical bills not covered by the primary insurance. Should the bills exceed the coverage of the primary policy, or if no primary carrier exists the BSA accident insurance would become the primary coverage and cover ALL medical bills. Now, lets say that the CO or any or all leaders are sued for damages caused by the injury BEYOND the medical bills, then the BSA will provide legal defense for the CO and or Leaders, and will pay for any fees or fines that result from a judgement aginst them. PROVIDED that the CO and leaders showed reasonable effort to avoid injuries. That means they are trained and followed the related policies and procedures set forth by the BSA. Gross negligence could allow the BSA to abandon the coverage or even seek to subrogate its losses from the negligent parties. YOUR BEST PROTECTION as a volunteer is to be a trained and conscientious leader and follow the policies and procedures of the BSA. If (as one poster suggests some may feel) you find the condition of having to be a trained and responsible leader as cause to "scare you off", then it is probably best that you go do something other than be entrusted with the safety of other people's children.

Not all together true FScouter. Unlike the accident insurance, the liability protection is based on the party being covered taking reasonable precautions to avoid causing injury. The insurance carrier (in this case the BSA since the liabilty umbrella is self-insured) could abandon the coverage should the volunteer through irresponsible action cause the injury. Not taking available training, and certainly violation of the G2SS requirements could meet such conditions.

You might have someone who is trained in the reseach field help you with your questions. Many are very subjective which cannot help but taint your results. You begin be asking if Indians are sensitive to the use of their culture but by question #9 you have assumed they are, even without the results of the survey. #6, Is it really needed for the BSA to be aware of ALL tribes tribal customs? Are all indians? #4, For me it's..hit their children in anger especially in public. But what does that have to do with the BSA and Indian culture? #4,6,9 You ask an awful lot of questions about what the BSA and others can do, but you are asking it of people who you do not control. Wouldn't it be better to ask the people you survey what they think they or their culture can do to help? At least they would have some control of that. While I appreciate your intentions I think the tool you intend to use is very biased and has some fundamental methodology flaws.

Isn't having indian blood but choosing not to be active in a tribe one of the perspectives you can have?

An effective response is for the scoutmaster to go stand SILENTLY next to the scoout causing the disturbance. That usually ends the problem. If they persist simply rest a hand on their shoulder. That will nearly always end it. But...if they continue, simply turn them gently and guide them away from the meeting and begin a counseling session out of earshot or view of the other scouts. (You will of course need to be in view of another adult.)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

How much Indian ancestry is required to be interviewed?

nldscout, Which insurance? Again, you cannot treat accident and liability the same.

One group is covered by the BSA since they completed a proper Tour Permit and it was documented that they followed the rules. The other, unfortunately, was not since they did not file a permit. Which insurance??? Accident insurance is ALWAYS in effect. Scouts medical bills will always be covered regardless of what adults do wrong. Liability protection for the registered leaders...well that's different.

The BSA is evidently not the problem, it is the misuse of the BSa program by local members that is the problem. That extends far beyond the OA and the use of Am. Indian lore by scouting, that same problem can be said to cause all problems at the local level. As you have correctly pointed out your problem is with your local folks. I do not believe you will find aything in the BSA program that supports their behavior. As long as the ceremonies and sybolism used and supported by the BSA is done in a respectful manner to symbolize the strengths and honorable characteristics of the American Indian the there should be no cause for the "purists" to rant. Not that I believe they will stop.

How advancement is recorded should be common knowledge for every scout. The problem here is not who checks the box or signs. The problem is evidently that clear and consistant communications regarding advancement has not taken place.

Madkins is confusing elements of the accident insurance with the liability umbrella. BSA accident insurance is secondary, the liability umbrella is a primary protection. They are two separate and unique policies.

Some of what you have there is fine but most is uneeded or more restrictive than needed to have a good scouting program. Ask the committee to get trained and read the BSA resources reggading trips then decide if they really think these additional rules are warranted. Good luck, BW

Is it your opinion that the scouts are trying to dishonor the american indian? The indians who help the BSA do not think so. If indians want to act and dress similar to scouts they can. I would hope that the positive values of scouting are shared by the elders of the Indian nations.

YAWN....