Bob White

jhnky's posts remind of a line from "the Legend of Sleepy Hollow" where we are told that a bewildered Ichabod...'leapt upon his horse and rode off in all directions. One topic at a time please jhnky if you are to allow for any resemblance of conversation. PS was suggesting he would formulate his opinion and mail it to the appropriate committee. You are talking about public accusations. BIG difference. You want to complain in public go ahead, but the BSA is not required to treat you as a welcomed guest in their house. Ed, that was the last press release on the topic that I am aware of. Unless they have changed their minds what need have they for another press release at this time? The lack of of a press release does not mean that there are no dicussions, just that no one has changed their minds. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not if that other tent was with this same group or not, do you? As I mentioned there were afew others out there like it. My information came from a conversation I had with an adult from that contingent, a photo in the local paper appeared to confirm his description of the tent.

Thanks PS life here is just fine. If you have really convinced yourself that only thinking about sending a letter (that has not been written, to somebody you have no idea who to send it to, while you have been mislead to believe that it could get you removed if you do it)... is showing an "effort to solve a situation", then there is nothing I'm sure that anyone can say to convince you otherwise. Had you actually composed and sent a letter to the national office...now that would be an effort. Here is something available on the BSA website that might interest you. http://www.scouting.org/media/press/020206/index.html While I do not know the name of the subcommittee it will easy enough for you to contact the national office and ask. Before you ask again for minutes of the meetings I will remind you that the BSA is a PRIVATE organization. Like other private organizations they have no more legal or moral obligation to publicly post private meeting minutes than you have to release transcripts of your private conversations. I appreciate your curiosity, but curiosity is not a mandate. You are a member of your CO's charter, you belong to them. They have contracted to national to follow the program and policies of the BSA and the CO accepted you as a volunteer for them to do the work. B:)b White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

This was one large tent leased from an outside firm by the contingent. They wanted to be able to feed everyone unter one Tent. They brought their own contractors to help set it up. A few other troops at jamboree also brought these huge tents, but not many. The difference here is where they chose to set them up. This is another good example of how misinformation and gossip gets people to erroneously blame the BSA.

Hunt, FScouter is a moderator and it would be improper for HIM to openly debate posters who misrepresent the BSA. I have no such restriction and am free to excercise my obligation to support the program, policies, and procedures of the BSA as my position charges me to do.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If my posts irritate folks who do not like the BSA or do not follow the program, that works fine for me. If someone is misusing the Scouting program and irritating the scouts and parents they serve then they have earned some irritation in their lives. Its not like I am asking them to do something wrong. I am asking them to keep their word and follow the program. I am asking them to not maign a program they chose and remain members of voluntarily. To ask to enter someones home and then insult them is unscoutlike ..is it not?

Thank you FScouter you are a welcome port in an unwanted storm, and as usual you are right on the money. Happy Sailing BW

"Heck, the got the first tent up without incident. Actually not, there was only one tent. it had two poles. They got the first pole up safely but not the first tent.

OK, Somebody please help me here, and someone else post for Prairie Scouter all the information I gave him that he himself said he did not yet know or have. Also, what did I say about the minutes of the meetings? Ed Wrote, Maybe the BSA needs more brainstorming sessions All I can say to that is.... John Daigler, you know exactly what I want to say, but I promise I will not post it publicly" See I can be good when it is in the best interest of the program.

Zahnada If this board were really about debate then no one would mind if I defended the porgram for that would simply be the opposite side of the debate. But when I defend the BSA I am called a uniform cop, bookworm, living in a bob white-land, having blind obedience, I've even been compared to nazi. what you consider debate is evryone discussing their version of what they think is wrong, but the moment I suggest that perhaps the BSA is not the one wrong, then I'm a bad guy. I would be thrilled to see posters forced to address the issue and not the person. In fact I would welcome seeing the moderstors 'moderate' that very thing. I have posted on this borad for three and half years and until yesterday I had never had a post removed. I would like to see those that feel free to slander me rather than disuss the issue hold themselves to that as well. If the moderators would like to keep this an even field and moderate discussions I think that would be great. So lets see if this realy is a place for debate if some can rag on the BSA thanI and others should feel free to support this program without the personal attacks that have gone unpunished. BW

Actually Calico you have it kinda backwards. If the BSA did indeed give you specific moral boundaries there would be no need for a board to make a decision, it would simply be a checklist. The BSA has purposely left the issue open for the board to be able to discuss these things with the scout. Keep in mind the board cannot just say that the scout didn't meet a requiremnt, goodbye. They have to tell the scout which requirement was not yet met, AND what the scout needs to do to complete the requirement. If the scout doesn't agree he has the right to appeal. A right that the board is required to tell him about. If you were a member of the board and you voted your conscience thats all you can do, regardless of whayt the outcome is. If the no votes were wrong the appeal board will take care of it.

Hi Mike, Nope no changes, the Scoutmaster is signing the card at the beginning to show that the scout has the name and contact number of a district/council approved and registered counselor. Also it's important that the scoutmaster be aware of what a scout is interested in and what he is working on. No the scoutmaster no more decides for a scout which merit badge a scout can or cannot work on, anymore than he or she decides what rank requirement the scout can work on at any time. As far as what you do as a merit badge counselor and dad is up to you. The BSA has no problem with you sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm about a subject with your son but they don't make anyone do it. As you say its a matter of they did the job or they didn't, so no one can really say you were harder or easier on him. Besides so what? If you are an approved counselor it's your decision not theirs. If they have a problem with how you do things they can explain it to the district advancement committee who can talk to you. If they think you did something wrong they will ask you do change or they will weigh anchor. But I'll bet you would do just fine with your son. So the fprogram works just fine, when everbody follows the program. No, no adult has the authority to 'slow' a Scouts advancement. The scout has either completed the requirement or he hasn't. For an adult to display that he has "power" over a scout is never a sign of good leadership. BW

Just to put Backpackers post in perspective, and I am probably not illustrating anything that the regular visitors on this board haven't noticed, but Ed and Backpacker don't like me. I think Ed's post speak for themselves so I won't comment on them, it's just not a fair match-up. But I just want to make things claer about backpacker, and anyone can verify this. If you click on ont the number below his name on the left you can look at every post he has ever made. From the beginning Backpacker has been on the attack. His 4th pot was removed becasue it was one big personal attack. Has he changed? I looked at the content of his last 100 posts 16 were unrelated to scouting 30 were scouting related and 25% were negative about the BSA. 9 were attacks at other poster besides me 40 were attacks at me. If we were in grade school I would have to think he had a crush on me. I have an agenda, good scouting. Backpacker has an agenda, and scouting evidently has nothing to do with it. But don't take my word for read his posts again yourselves and see if you can figure out what he really is after. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn or Fscouter would care to handle this less I be branded a bully as well. Thanks Bob

I understand that you are frustrated with the dad sst3rd but if I may interject...all scouts come with parents, you need to keep your focus on the scouts. Things are not great if you have a scout who gets purposely delayed for his SM conference. The fact is that if a scout is ready for a SM conference then the SM should make it happen. There is nothing gained by delaying it two weeks is there? You mentioned that you have been working tirelessly to get more committee members and ASMs. May I ask, when you are at a typical troop meeting how do you typically spend your time? Are you recruiting committee members, conversing with parents, going over things with the CC?

jhnky, In your anger you have posted your overly long but lovely, lilting meandering response in the WRONG thread. Please shorten the reponse to answer only the question that was asked and repost in the correct thread if you have any real desire to thoughtfully discuss this topic. smiling delightedly B:)b White cue the bluebirds please.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

WOW first Prairie Scouter then jhnky in a separate post. Lets look at my questions and your answers! 1 BOB asks You don't believe that the BSA ever discusses or reconsiders the membership policies related to atheism and homosexuals. What evidence or information have you obtained to lead you to that conclusion PS answers I'd say the best evidence I have is a lack of available information in regards to such discussions having taken place, at least that I have been able to find. If BSA National has done so, why wouldn't they make that public? It would certainly improve their public persona. Explanation. The fact that you DON'T KNOW about it happening does not mean it didn't. Do you know what I had for breakfast today? Does that mean I must not have had breakfast? Have you ever asked anyone who would actually know if this was ever discussed and by whom? Who did you ask? Are you aware of any other PRIOVATE organization that makes PUBLIC the minutes of every meeting they hold? 2. Bob asked You believe that if you try to discuss this with national you will thrown out of scouting. Can you point to a single incident where this has happened to lead you to believe it will or could happen to you. PS answers Well, the easy one is Scoutmaster Dave Rice, removed in 1998. And, in 2001, there are reports that several Cub Scout units in Oak Park, IL were disbanded by the National Office after they announced that they would not discriminate in their membership policies. (Having the unit leaders removed from their positions was a byproduct of this action, so that would account for possibly another dozen or so?). In signing the Adult Leader application, you effectively are agreeing to BSA policies. If you then announce that you do not agree with those policies, I think it's reasonable to assume that BSA would take some action. (I hope we don't have to debate over if it was really the National office that did these things, or the CO, acting on BSA National advice; same difference, in my mind) Explanation ALL totally irrelevant to what you said you were thinking about maybe doing. Your examples are of people who publicly spoke against the BSA or who said they were or had intentional violated the BSA membership policies. You are suggesting that you might maybe someday put organized thoughts in a letter and send it to the appropriate committee for consideration. Have you any factual knowledge of ANYONE who was reprimanded in any way for doing so? The fact is you do not, nor has anyone been treated that way. 3. Bob asked You don't know specifically who to address your concerns to do you? Who have you asked and who did they tell you to send your concerns to. PS answered I think I did post recently that that was a piece of information I was trying to track down. I've contacted my local DE, and haven't heard back yet. So, this is hopefully in process at this point. Explanation But it never occurred to you to make a phone call to the BSA office and ask who to address the letter to?????? Do you see why it is so easy to become frustrated with the opinions you express based on absolutely no information when the answers are very available, you simple chose not to get them? 4. kind of long on both our parts so i will summarize. You said you were not going to stop your 'efforts'. the fact is you have made no effort. I grant that you have thought about it A LOT. but no real work has gone into it. AND YET having gathered no actual information or developed any actual plan to support you personal opinion. You have taken every opportunity to post what is wrong with the BSA when you have not even picked up the phone and asked them who to send a letter to. And there is my problem with your actions. You have NO actual information nor have you made any effort to get it. Your primary source of BSA knowledge comes from gossip from other ill informed volunteers. The real kicker is that this is by your own choice. You have been offered information several times o this board, and refused it every time. Other posters besides my have informed you of a lot of misinformation that you have posted and yet you have done nothing to become better informed about the program or the BSA. Here are some facts The BSA has a committee within the relationships division that is made up or representatives of several Chartering organizations that use the BSA programs. They make recommendations to the executive board based on their discussions. The executive board then makes the decision as they do on all matters regarding policies of the BSA. Both the executive board and the relationships committee have unanimously supported the current membership policies as being in the best interest of the goals of the BSA. This is the committee you need to send your opinion and reasons too. There will be no repercussions against anyone who makes a reasoned presentation of their thoughts and opinions. The committee I believe meets as a whole once or twice a year. You can get contact information by calling the BSA national office. Remember that the committee is there to represent the charter organizations and their values and goals not the individual scout volunteer or even any or all the scout volunteers. You are not a charter organization representative. You are a unit volunteer you WORK for the charter organization you are NOT a spokesperson for it. While they will read your thoughts they are their to represent their organization. There in just 4 paragraphs is everything you need to know but never stopped to ask about. Anchors or sails, the choice is yours. B:)b White

And I understand the subtleties of your story OGE, BUT I have never claimed to be an expert. I have never said that anyone who did not do it my way was wrong. I have never been rude or unhelpful to any poster who ever asked for help. I have never suggested that any ever do things my way, or condemned them for not doing so. All I have said "is this is what the program says" and I have given in nearly every case the resources to find that in. In some cases I gave personal experiences but I never insisted others do it the same or criticize those who didn't. I have challenged those who malign a program that has done great things for tens of millions of people over the years. I have no patience for ayone who refuses to folow the program even though they chase scouts from their pack or troop. I have no patience for those who make their own rules in order to control other people and other peoples children. At one time in this forums history that was two people,now it seems we have a half dozen (including the original two). Is it any wonder that membership has dipped when you read what these registered and 'active' unit volunteers think of the program and how they trat the scouts they are supposed to be serving. Every one of us, well almost everyone here, agreed to follow the program, its policies and procedures. A few have not kept that promise and they deserve to be challenged about that. If only one new leader was to follow in their path think of how many scouts will be affected. What if two did, or three.

Hourman, distant associate and registered scouter, "our version of full uniform Are you, or were you, aware that no individual, unit, or council has the authority to alter the official uniforms of the BSA? That while a scout may not have a complete uniform yet the unit has no authority to make the uniform anything other than what the BSA says it is. Was this known to your unit leaders at any time? Yours truly B:)b White

Merlyn fellow ummm well, fellow, Let me say this one time please. I did answer you, you simply did not like my answer. We want to thank you for all the times you have shown up to announce the latest lawsuit against the BSA or its chartering organizations by the ACLU. Thank you also for all your glee in efforts to hurt the BSA simply because you are not allowed to play in it. It's your efforts to start these suits..OH wait you had nothing to do with actually starting them. Well anyway at least your efforts to determine the outome...OH wait, you have no effect on the outcome at all do you? Well at least your efforts to keep us informed...Wait a minute..we all have radios, newpapers,TV, and current news on the internet without you. Well at least your efforts to ...whatever it is you actually do to have a meaningful life, other than to brag to scouters that we are being sued by the ACLU. As always your posts are...well... they certainly are posts aren't they. Anchors aweigh, Merlyn! B:)b White If it will help anyone to feel better about this post please feel free to imagine little blue birds flitting in and out of the viewing area on your monitor.

"forbidding parents from signing off any rank or MB requirements for their son. A SCOUTMASTER CAN'T DO THAT. Now you will need to look in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual and you will discover that a qualified and registered merit badge counselor can work with ANY scout including their own child. A scoutmaster has no authority over merit badges. BW

and lets not take so long that we allow a unit to be harmed or a single boy leaves scouting.

ljnrsu welcome to the discussion. I believe you have not only misunderstod my post but the Scout Law as well. If you look at the mission of the BSA you will see it is to teach how to make ethical decision based on the oat and law. There will be situations when you cannot use every point at every moment and you will need selcect based on the values represented in the Law what decision you will make. My decision when faced with faceless individuals using factless, illinformed, and thoughtless language to villify the BSA was to defend it based on my loayalty to the men and women and youth who make up this program. My original posts were polite, factual,informed and toatally IGNORED by the posters. From that point on they were no longer owed courtesy for they intent waas not of a courteous intent. You cannot attack the people and values I am loyal to with the malice they have used and expect or recieve coutesy in return. I was direct. I called a spade a spade. These are bullies nothing less. And when a bully attacks your friends you cannot respond with, "oh dear me, please excuse my interruption but if it wouldn't be a bother could you refrain from pummelling my friend. Thanks ever so much." No, You reach in and pull them back. And if need be you stand betwen the bully and your friend. That's scoutlike! I challenged them to show evidence of their knowledge and information. I still do. Thanks for you input. BoB White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't think it was being a unirofm police, I do however think it was a little heavy handed for a ceremony. If you were teaching flag ettiquette I think its fine to explain what is correct or incorrect, but in a ceremony or really anywhere outside of the instructors role you simply say, "hand salute" and you rely on yhe knowledge and character of the individual to do the right thing. That is the same way the BSA approaches uniforming, They give you ample resources and information to know the rules or where to find them. Then it is up the the character of the individual to do the right thing.

Most of the units in your district would not be able to recharter if the key leaders were required to be trained?? Well good luck there Scoutldr. It seems a choice of losing scouts and scouters due to poor unit perograms, or closing the weak units down and directing the scouts over to the few units that know the program? Which way do you think would benefit the boys the most?