Bob White

I do not see defending those you owe loyalty to as un-scoutlike. If a person cannot choose as a scout leader to be trustworthy, loyal helpful friendly, kind, obedient cheerful, clean, and reverent in their post, then they should not expect courtesy in exchange for their behavior. I do not believe an attacker is owed courtesy. If you attack a member of my family do not expect me to request that you "kindly curtail your assault please and thank you". When you attack the people I value or the people unable to defend themselves, do not expect courtesy in return. If you steal I will call you a thief, that is not being discourteous, its an aknoweldgement of what that person CHOSE to be. If your are untrained saying you need training is not unkind or discourteous. The individual CHOSE to be untrained, no one stole the information from them. No one made them stay home from the training, no one kept them from reading the handbook.

But you know what Jerry, and this comes from almost 20 years of rescuing units, Bad leaders do not become good ones because of outside influences. They become good leaders ONLY if they make the internal decision to change. Usually that NEVER happens. The occasional time when it does is because something dramatic causes a change such as a CC insisting on it. If you join a troop with a bad leader you don't have time to wait for the change to happen. If your son doesn't get good scouting he may leave, or worse yet he may stay and learn bad skills from a bad program. If you aren't in a position to effect the change then got to someone who can an request them to make the change, if they refuse or even hesitate, then vote with your feet. Boys deserve a good scouting program not excuses as to why its bad. Good scouting is not hard, its easier than bad scouting. So there else no accepting a unit that chooses to do it wrong. If you go to an existing troop and the unit leaders and CC are not trained, ask when they will be. If they don't already have a plan for getting trained, walk away. Let them know that when they have a plan to learn the program they can call you and see if you are available. If they say , I don't need training because I am an Eagle scout, walk away. I had my appendix removed but I don't pretend to know how to remove them. Receiving the program and delivering the program are two completely different things. If you are on the committee and the CC isn't trained let him or her know you will go with them and you can learn together otherwise you will not take the job. What good is it if you know what you are doing if the leader doesn't? Stepping onto a leaking boat is a waste of time if you do not have the authority to plug the leak. Let people willing to lead and be lead poorly have their own units. Go find, or begin, good ones. Believe me the bad ones will be gone long before you ever leave the program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There are 3 posters on this forum who have met me and one that has scouted with me for about 2 years now (after we had been on this board not knowing each other). I can say with fairly high confidence that none of them would consider me un-scoutlike in our interactions. While I accept the the decision of the moderator who used the term I would like to present a different view. I have used this example before but its still a good example. if a thief breaks into your home and you call him a thief, are you being un-friendly, discourteous, unkind? Un-scoutlike? If your boss asks you to lie to a customer and you refuse are you un-scoutlike for being disobedient? If a house is engulfed in flames and you know the families baby is in a nursery on the second floor are you unscoulike for not being brave and charging into the flames? If you see a person getting mugged should you be helpful and help the mugger or discouteous to him and help the victim. Being un-scoutlike is not as dependent on the action as it is on who or what the purpose or intent of the action is. If I see a woman being hit, I will stop it, I don't care if I am unkind to the attacker, unfriendly to the attacker, un-helpful to the attacker. The intended vistim deserves defending. If I take some hits in the process it's better that I get hit than her. I feel the same about scouting and this forum. The BSA is not the monster some posters would make IT to be. It is not even an it. Much of the BSA are my friends and family, and this program has been a part of my family community service since the 1920s. When it is attacked, I will defend it. That to me is being loyal, and trustworthy. Standing up to bullies who only what to discourage good people from a good program is brave as far as I am concerned. These people are not friends, they are not friendly, they are attacking my friends, good people who try to do good things and have good values. They do not deserve to be attacked, especially by those who have less than virtueous motives. They deserve to have someone defend them because that is the right thing to do. Nowhere does the Scout Law say you can not get angry. It asks that you be loyal to family, friends, my scout leaders and my nation, and I always have. It asks that I been a friend to all regardless of race or beliefs or customs. And I have never with held friendship based on those grounds. A Scout is courteous (this is the one some have waited for.) I would like everyone interested to read the passage in the handbook (pg 49)I have never been impolite because of a persons age or position. I shake hands, apologize when wrong, I will be courteous to those whom coutesy is owed. But as I explained before you cannot be "scout-like to an attacker and still be of use to the attacked. I could care less if some posters want to take shots at me personally, although this seems an odd vehicle to choose to do that in, but do not attack the people that I value and expect plaese and thank yous in return. Take a look at the other points of Law and see if you find one that I have violated. Have I been defensive, absolutely, Do I defend the BSA, absolutely I would not have spend this much time in a program that I did not respect. Do I defend it more aggressively than others? why should that even matter? Some defend the ACLU with as much energy, some defend atheism with as much enthusiasm, some attack the BSA with more, I choose to like and defend what I see as the finest Youth program in America. I do not see where there is a negative there. I have never refused to help a scouter, parent, or scout who had a question. I have spoken with nearly a dozen on the phone at their request to help them when no one in their district would or could. I have mentored a dozen or so more through PMs. I have never been un-scoutlike to anyone who wanted good scouting. If being unscoutlike means that I defend the quality and purpose of the program and that I challenge those who carelessly malign it then fine I will accept your label as mis-applied as I believe it to be. I can cannot ignore the attack and be scoutlike, I cannot challenge the attacker and be scoutlike. Given the choice I will choose to defend and support the BSA and its programs.

To say that sails and anchors do not exist in anorganization is just being selective about what you see. Everyone ows just from these forums that there are people who like scouting and understand how it works and peopel wo do not like scouting and do not care how it works. We have all encountered these same people in our units and councils. If you are in a position of employing others or selecting employees you see it alll the time. Sails and anchors are all around us. If you are in or considering a unit where the SM and CC do not care and do not follow scouting and you are not in a position to change or replace them the answer is simple, go elsewhere. If there is no place else to go...quit the scouting. I do not mean this to be cruel. If everybody quit the unit would simply close down sooner than if you stayed and fewer boys would be harmed. I would rather there be 15 boys who wanted scouting and were sorry they could not have it, than have 15 boys who had a bad experience ina bad unit and regeretted ever joining. Take your son and a scout handbook and teach him the skills and values on your own. the bottom line is not to be an Eaglle Scout, it never has been. The goal is to be a good person of strong character based on the values of the oath and law. If none of the COs near you understand that then leave them to wither and spend the time you were willing to share with them with you sons and his best friends. Invite another parent along on your outings, prtty soon others will com. One of them will belong to an organization that will charter you as a unit. it might take a year but you can make it happen by first serving the boys and delivering the promise of scouting. Or if you want rather then have a poorly lead unit that you son is in linger a slow death, walk away and kill it now. Then gather a team you trust walk back in to the CO and say "here is what happened". "If you really want to teach your organizations values and the valsue of scouting to the youth you serve we can help you do that, here is what we will do and here rae your responsibilities." But you have the ability to make a positive difference if only by forcing the death of a unit that refuses to follow the program.

Both my parents were involved actively in Scouting when I was growing up. One of the reasons they wanted my brothers and me in scouting was so that we would learn that we are personally responsible for the community we live in. Well we live in lots of different communities, and one of them is scouting. While we may not live in a perfect community we live in the community that we helped create. Unless we work to make it better we will only have what we've got. You cannot throw up your hands and say that it's a nice though but there is nothing I can do. There is lots that can be done. It starts with the commitment to make yourself better, and then to make your scout unit better. Once you have decided that it's time to separate the wheat from the chaff. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

But CNY hasn't the BSA already made that model available to every single scouter and scout unit? The training, the manuals, Scouting magazine, Boys Life, Roundtables. The amount of modeling done by the BSA for leaders and Units is immense. Whether of not leaders or units USE this information is dependent on the committment of the leaders an CO. It all caomes back tp selecting the right people, nothing else will make a good program for the scouts. Again we seem to be turning to others for the answer rather than to the indicidual responsible and requiring them to do the job or make room for someone who will.

I understand your concern Jerry, and I realize that when you are up to you neck in alligators its tough to focus on draining the swamp. but there are effective ways around that. This is not the theread to explain that in though. I just wanted to make the point that you do not have to choose or keep bad leaders. If you would be curious how to taff a unit without being forced to retain the kinds of folks who are anchors and not sails we could do that in a new thread. Happy Scouting BW

Is it your intention to say that the BSA trained this man to abuse children? Are you suggesting that the unit leaders followed the program amd the required Youth Protection policies and yet the man was able to be alone with a scout long enough to molest them on multiple occassions even within the direst sight of another adult? Are you saying that the parents reported the abusesd and that the CO not only kept him as a leader but kept their children in the program? OR The leaders and CO did not follow the program and the leader without the knowledge of the other leaders, the CO, the BSA,did this crime on his own. what do you think was the situation here?

Hi Jerry, Its easier than you might think. As you select and recruit new leaders you draw clear objectives and expectations. People who are looking for the same experience for their kids that you want for yours will accept it, let they others walk away. COs do not have to sign on bad leaders just to fill a spot. Once they do they not only harm their units they create bad memories for the scouts that can last for years and even lose us the next generation of possible scouts in that family. Besides that the create future disasters for the district and council as their bad choices become a bad decision for the district. A leader who never gets trained or understands their training will not duddenly bcome capable by moving from unit to district. COs and committees need to make the right choice. They need to be serious about selecting the right person. It's okay to say no to someone. And its okay to tell a complainer to get with the program or leave. Its okay to require that leaders not only get trained but follow the program. The real problems of scouting are program related. I had a scouter write me to say that his son's unit was so bad that he went to the DE and asked for the name of a unit thatactula had a scouting program. With several troops in the community the only one the DE could think of that actual had a scouting program was over 20 miles away. That has to stop. We need to the COs to take their responsibility seriously and we all can help them do that. It works, I have seen it work.

I got no problems with the decision. I was tired of the anti-scouting comments and I shot back, I make no apologies for it, but I accept the authority given Fscouter in this matter. Nobody makes us post here, if we don't like the way this privately owned board is operated then we have the freedom to post elsewhere. Why does this sound so familiar? Point made? By the way here is the latest response from the scoutstuff webmaster: "You are correct and the terms class A and class B uniform is used by some scouts but there is no official reference. We will make the corrections on the web site to reflect the correct terminology. Thank you for your input and if we can be of any further service please let us know. Your in Scouting, So I think we can agree that this adds to the pile of evidence that the terms Class A and B have no real place in our terminology. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree that FScouter is usually right on the money, however ...fgoodwin gave the accurate answer as far as the BSA uniform policy and the reference. Except for religious and Historical Trail awards only BSA issued patches are to be worn. BW

Merlyn When I said that few public schools chartered units you argued that many did. When the statement was made that they can't and I said they do, you now say they don't. Oh Well. Prairie, So then what was the point of posting the number of hits if we all agree that the numbers include an unknown quantity of unrelated and duplicated links with no real statistical value. Its just BSA bashing. Even you on rare occassion have found something positive to say about scouting. Don't you find it incredible that jhnky kind find nothing in this huge program to post about other than his malicious attacks. "Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it" BW

I'm going to have an Eamonn soapbox moment and then I am going to go back to my chipper self. A lot of of the best posts on this forum come from well meaning volunteers who stop in for a some advice and then go back and get to work. I like those folks a lot. But if you noticed the majority of problems come from having to deal with unit leaders, or committee members, or other volunteer of even professionals who are not following the program. These scouters want to know what to do to get things back on track. The majority of other posters hers are malcontents and complainers berating the BSA program, its uniforms, iots program, its handbooks, its volunteers and professionals etc.. As I tried to point out the last couple days they operate largely from the bottom of a pit of scouting ignorance. No names are needed at this point I think they have revealed themselves sufficiently. Here is the solution to the solving almost of the problems of the first group of posters. Get rid of the people in the unit, district or council that act like the second group. Seriously. If you want a scout program at any level that is positive and growing you need to surround yourself with people who either know the program or have a thirst to learn it. You need people who like what they are doing and the program they are doing it for. You need to take the people who do not like the program they joined and allow them the opportunity to go do something that will make them happy SOMEPLACE ELSE. They deserve as much opportunity for happiness outside of scouting as we find inside. Think about this. If all your leaders liked scouting and understood scouting how much more you could accomplish? Think of the fun every scout could have if all the adult leaders were positive role models. We wouldn't have less help, we would have room for people who saw the fun we were having and they would beg to join in. We could actual increase the number of volunteers. Just think of all the scouts that would join with the program we could have with so many knowledgeable leaders. HERE is how you do it. Just say NO. When someone wants to be on a committee, or a leader in the unit, but isn't trained or won't get trained...JUST SAY NO. If a person in your unit leadership or on your district committee speaks ill of the program all the time and crticizes the BSA you do not have to keep them, if they are unwilling to change REMOVE THEM. You do not have to keep bad leaders. You do not have to deliver a poor or mediocre program just because someone has been around a long time, or because they are somebody'e parent or spouse. These complainers and untrained or unlearned (went to training for the coffee and not the skills) will kill your program or drive your scouts away. Let them go find happiness doing something else...somewhere else. The kind of people who will make local issues out of distant headlines are anchors that will ruin the program. How does a sailboat work? It moves by the trim of its sails not by the weight of its anchors. Make a choice. If you want to get movin you gotta lose the anchors. This is not a dificult program to do or lead or learn. As Eamonn and Fscouter, OGE, me and others have said 'Scouting is really quite easy IF you follow the scouting program' This forum could do so much more to enrich your scouting program if more posts asked questions rather than complained about the uniform, or th FOS or what they think national is doing or not doing. It could be a sharing of scouting KNOWLEDGE not scouting whines, and there are some very talented scouters here. No gripe will ever make a unit a better place for a scout. "Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doin it." Now as John Astin would say "I'm feeling MUCH better now." HAPPY SCOUTING Bob White

Ed I never said I was looking for the BSA to change, my point was that chnaging the values of scouting is the only thing that the ACLU is interested in regardless of who owns the unit.

If you are a budget then cost of travel is probably your greatest enemy. There might be some great plavces near you. What is the general aree you want to stay within?

I can understand how [some scouters'] limited knowledge and exposure leads him to such a narrow vision of what scouting is here and in other countries. First you need to understand that the national office gets very little of FOS funds I believe it is around 1% to 3%. National does not rely on FOS fo their funding. They operate mostly from the sale of BSA products, corporate donations, bequests, trusts, and the like. FOS raises money for the Council period. The thought that our units can survive just fine without the council is illconcieved. Most unit are unaware of the services provided by the council quietly in the background while we are in our real jobs. The fact is the council is a corporation and corporations have expenses. The cost of professions is a small part of what FOS pays for, but even that money is well spend in nearly every case. Professional do the support work for us that we do not have the time or opportunity to do while we work or live our non-scout lives. But besides that there is property costs, maintanence, program equipment, utilities, time and gas to mow the sirtes at camp. There is the office staff that resords advancement and membership, there are the costs of communications for upcoming events to enhance programs. Even if only half you packs go to day camp they all need the information. There is the time spend helping units. Sure maybe you didn't need help this year but others did, and maybe you will next time. But the inmportant thing to remember is that FOS is not about doing for you...today. The services you recieve today were paid for by those who gave over the years in the past. FOS is about the continuing health of the scouting community you live in down the road. FOS helps to have the resources to make scouting better for thwe scouts to come as well as the scouts today. Even for the flaws that some take great delight in exaggerating and misrepresenting, the BSA is still the most effective youth development program in the country. It takes young men and women and prepares them to be better citizens, better neighbors, better spouses, better parents. And all the BSA asks is that you look at what scouting has done for you, your family, your community and make a pledge that will help scouting continue to grow and improve to serve not just your children but their children. The council raises some of the money through activity fees, popcorn sales, corporate donations, and in many communities we still get funding from United Way. BSA is happy to say they are a United Way Agency, but United Ways goals and purpose have changed over the years and they serve far more agencies. The Council's slice of the Financial pie is much thinner these days. So the scouting program relies to a great extent on you the families of the scouts who are getting the benefit of the program today. FOS is not mandatory, you will recieve the services of your council whether you contribute or not, but do not expect all the services you want to be available without end if you are not willing to help the council to afford them. The BSA understands that not everyone has the same financial resources so there is no minimum pledge, we as council volunteers ask only that you pledge what is an appropriate amount for your family and and your resources. It takes two minutes to fill out the pledge card and become a partner in the success of your council and scouting in your community. [...] All your council asks is a few minute a year to explain the importance of Friends of Scouting. The vast majority of parents are more than happy to participate. When camps grow you need to thank them when camps get sold, well...[...]. In the BSA there is no them and us[...], its all just US... and we will succeed together or fail together. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Nor is it available through National or council scout shops or from scoutstuff.org. It is only available through philmont Tooth of Time Traders trading post. It is not shown in any materials on the Official uniform or Activity uniform for any program. It is apparel made and licensed to the BSA. But at theis time it is only used as a staff uniform by the Philmont staff and is not for wear with the official uniform, although any member of the BSA can buy it through Tooth of Time Traders. I can see how the take could be confusing.

An intriguing question, isn't it!

Ed If someone attacks my friends and family I am not required to be friendly or courteous to the attacker. I am expected to be brave and stand up to them and to be loyal to my friends and family. You in accepting the role of a BSA Commissioner have accepted the responsibility to represent the programs, policies, and procedures of the BSA and yet more often than not you support the opinions of these poster who constantly attack the BSA. Just how do you rationalize that behavior with your job in scouting?

The problem is that many UCs are former unit leaders who either weren't good at what they did...or who are burned out but want to keep on the rosters. So now you have poor leaders without a unit to tell what to do wrong, so they tell other peoples units what to do wrong. Or they are tired or busy (which is why they left their other position) and they are just treading water but keeping their registration active. Not not all commissioners fit that description, there are always exceptions, but certainly many (too many) do. The fault has to be put on the District Key 3. Choosing good commissioners is as much the responsibility of the district as choosing unit leaders is the responsibility of the COs.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Everyone knows that each troop has the flexibility of creating a program that is tailored to their youth." That is not an accurate representaion of the fatcs. I know of nothing in the BSA program that says that. The program is already created. The Co in signing the annual "Shared responsibilities" agreement contracts with the BSA to follow their program, policies and procedures. Each CO however can deliver the program in whatever ways best serves the shared values of the CO and the BSA. Recreating the program is not within the authority of the CO. Using the program to best serve their goals and values is allowed. What is the benefit of not uning the uniform? Is it really only because of cost? In that case do not by tents. Don't by handbooks or meritbadge books, don't go anywhere that has a camping or activity fee. If money is the issue why stop only at uniforms. Scouts will spend more on food for campouts in a year than they will on a uniform, and they get to keep the uniform a lot longer.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Actually it was from a 1980 Wood Badge syllabus. I got the years of publication from Pinetree wover.

Please do not try to mix progarm with membership thay are two different issues. Rather tha have the CO sign up a leader and then the BSA drop them for not getting trained, why not just have the COs fulfill their accepted responsibility and only select leaders who are willing to learn and deliver the BSA program. Why can't local units and volunteers take responsibility for their choices as they agree to do each year when they recharter? If a leader doesn't make a personal committment up front to get trained and follow the program then don't sign them up in the first place.

jkhny is it even possible that you know less about the internet than you do about scouting??? Hits do not = incidences Hits are how many times the phrase is found. When I write the phrase Boys Club Leader arrested, I just increased the number of hits, did I increase the number of arrests as well? When you google Scout Leader Arrested you also get articles such as the one about a Utah Policeman who was killed in the line of duty. It telss how he was a Scout Leader and how many Arrests he had made in his carrer. Oh my doesn't that speak badly of the BSA! It also hits on sites for Scouting for all and for protest signs that they suggest to insult the BSA. It also has multiple hits for the same arrest. It all has hits for scout leaders who were claered of accusations. You are a real piece of work. The image of Scouting isn't abysmal...YOUR image of scouting is abysmal. And what have you done other than complain?