Twocubdad

What's the difference? By saying "our pack" you would still have inserted yourself as an "owner" of the unit. The point is that for 90% of us, use of "my troop" or "our pack" is not suggestive of ownership. We don't intend it that way when we say it, we don't interpret it that way when we hear.

Have you been to camp school, Gidget? I would highly recommend it. Ours was the best training I've been to, regardless of subject. While you don't need to be certified to be the committee chairman, it goes into many of the issues you will be dealing with.

I've never gotten to exercised over the Brunswick stew controversy. Honestly, I can take it or leave it. I'll take another helping of barbecue instead. And by the way, scoutldr, no offense intended with the crack about sending barbecue heretics to Virginia. I'm sure our guys will be glad to hand them off to the proper Virginia authorities so you guys can send them on north.

Honest guys, I had nothing to do with this.

I'm the Camp Director of our district day camp (also volunteer). I, with a co-director, actually plan and run the camp. Is that what you're doing or is this an administrative/supervisory committee? Sounds like you guys are set up differently than we are. We don't really have a council day camp committee (at least not that I know of, and you would think someone would have introduced themself). On the district level, our day camp committee is the camp staff (again, all volunteers). As camp director I'm an at-large member of the district committee. Theoretically, I report to the camping chairman who reports to the program chairman who reports to the district chairman, but those guys are really more involved in Boy Scout camping and program. Realistically, day camp is fairly autonomous. Each district in our council operates it own day camp independent of the council and the other districts. Honestly, if someone walked up and said "I'm the new council day camp chairman how can I help?" unless they can drive a bus or run the BB range, I'm not sure what I would want them to do. Tell me a little more and maybe I can help. I can certainly help from the standpoint of camp operations.

Iced tea is like mothers' milk in these parts. We drink it by the gallon. It's frequently pre-sweetened since it's almost impossible to get sugar to dissolve in a cold glass of tea. Most restaurants offer both sweet tea and unsweet -- just ask. I don't especially care for the syrupy-sweet version myself, although my mom makes it that way. I'll add a splash of unsweet just to tone it down. The closest thing to an official North Carolina state religion is barbecue. Since most of y'all ain't from 'round here, I'll add that when we say barbecue we mean slow-cooked, smoked pork (amongst the locals, no such explaination is necessary). That metal contraption on your back deck is called a grill. Barbecue here is a noun, not a verb. One cannot barbecue a hamburger or a hot dog. If you ask a gentleman what kind of barbecue he prefers, he will tell you either Eastern or Lexington and will be able to explain his preference for a good 20- or 30- minutes. Eastern barbecue is basically just smoked pork topped with a sauce of vinegar and crushed pepper. Lexington barbecue has a small amount of tomato paste or ketchup added to the sauce, but usually not enough that the uninitiated will notice. Put a thick, ketchup-ey, Kansas City-style sauce on a plate of good barbecue here and you'll find your sorry butt in the back seat of a state patrol cruiser headed for the Virginia state line. Elections for high state offices have been decided over what kind of barbecue the candidates prefer. Fights have broken on the floor of the state legislature over barbecue. We take barbecue very passionately here. Barbecue is served with cole slaw (mayonaise, mustard or vinegar-based), fries, hush puppies, sweet tea and finished with 'naner puddin' (i.e. banana pudding). Purists, especially those who prefer Eastern barbecue, will also expect Brunswick stew, essentially a vegetable soup, usually including some chicken or other meat, cooked down to the consistency of a thick gumbo. Man, this is killin' me. I'll be back after dinner. Guess where I'm going.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Bob, I don't think there is anyone here who misses your point. Your lesson from Green Bar Bill is an excellent one which we should all take to heart. It seems to me that everyone here does. In it's place "the troop I serve" is a good tool for reinforcing this point. In a training session or even in casual conversation where you're making a point, it's fine. But if I'm in a leaders' meeting and the camp director asks who can do a skit at the campfire, to respond that "the boys of the pack with which I serve can do a skit" is just flat goofy. Trust me, no harm will come from simply saying "My pack can do a skit." Yes, words matter and can shape attitude. But I suggest to you that attidude more frequently and more strongly influences the words we choose. A Scoutmaster who would say "In my troop you better advance a rank every six months or you're outta here!" needs to change more that his vocabulary. Sometimes the words we use matter, but sometimes they don't. Using "my" in this context is one of them.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Our council hasn't had a real Cub Pow Wow in a couple years. The last time they did is was a Cub-only event with probably several dozen different courses offered. I think it was held in Jan. or Feb. Several hundred people attended. The only courses offered for youth was Den Chief training. Although that was a really successful event, they've not held one in the past three years. Last winter they tried tacking a few Pow Wow-like courses onto the other training days. It's not a very effective way of handling it. People who need to take Fast Start/NLE and a position-specife course don't have time to take anything else and there isn't enough selecion to attract others to the Pow Wow courses. Our big training event every year is a College of Scouting-type event in September. They offer a few Pow Wow-type courses there, but because the emphasis in September is on basic training, most of the Cub leaders can't take advantage of it. They offer quite a few Boy Scout Pow Wow courses and they seem to be well attended. In my case, I've taken all the Cub Scout courses, so I may take some of the Boy Scout classes, possibly even Fundamentals -- haven't really decided.

Think of it like the Superbowl. The 2004 Superbowl comes at the end of the 2003 season. Our unit -- oops, the unit with which I serve -- recharterd in February and completed the QU application based on our accomplishments during the prior 12 months -- most of which was obviously in 2002. But since the award was received in 2003, the uniform patches (and if I remember right, the streamer) all say 2003. (Looks like DS answered first, but I still like my football analogy.)(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Yes, but he made up for it in June (and let's assume it was late June). I think the spirit of the requirement is to attend three events. Certainly I wouldn't count three consecutive days of day camp, but if the boy is active all summer, I think he should get the pin. Otherwise, the argument could be made that the pack has added a requirement by conducting four activities and requiring attendance at all four. AdvanceOn -- the 50% requirement is for the den award, not the pack award. So you would count day camp? How about Webelos camp?

GIVE THE KID THE DANG PIN! My theory is that in the absence of a clear policy, the local leaders should apply their best judgement. The botomline intent of the program is that the pack will hold three acitivities and that any Scout going to all three earns the pin. Does anyone really care that your July activity was held August 2? Since there is not clear policy for all the possible permutations and exceptions, take the policy you have, use you best judgement and do what's in the best interest of the kids and the program. The Pack With Which I Serve has a heck of a time trying to fit three activities in. Summer ends up being only nine weeks around here. Subtract two weeks of day camp, one week of Webelos resident camp and the week of Independence Day, there's not much time left. Because many of our pack leaders volunteer to help with both camps, they all have to take their family vacations during the remaining weeks. But let me ask another question: Do any of the rest of you count day camp and Webelos camp as summertime activities? We haven't in the past. I read somewhere in the day camp literature that camp could count "if you attend it as a pack." What the heck does that mean? We register as a pack but all the Scouts go individually and are assigned to temporary day camp dens. We attend Webelos camp in our natural dens with our regular den leaders (mostly). But since that's only for Webelos, is it a pack activity? What do the rest of you do? Or did I answer my own question in the first paragraph?

God, gays, girls and now grammar? NJ, I thought you were going to make my point with the discussion of Bob's six sentences. Each was an example of a poor Scout leader who used the phrase "my troop." The point that I hoped you were making was that there isn't are causal relationship between the attitudes expressed by these guys and their use of "my troop." These guys are poor leaders regardless of how they refer to their unit. There are many good Scouters out there representing (oops! can I say "representing") many good troops who proudly refer to the unit they serve as "my unit." I think it's clear from the majority of the posts here that most of us who refer to "my unit" or "my boys" do so in a loving, caring connotation.

Hi guys, I joining this thread late, so do you mind if I review where we are? Original question/hypothesis: check Round of ration/logical discussion: check Diversion onto secondary topic: check Hair-splitting debate over the proper meaning of a common word: check Diversion into yet another secondary topic: check Sarcastic replies: check Offense taken at sarcastic replies: check Sarcasm degenerate into personal attacks: check Personal attack responded to in-kind: check Short return to rational debate: ?? Primary participants get disgusted/bored and stop repsonding: ?? Thread finally runs it's course: ?? Since we seem to have the sarcasm and personal attacks out of the way, let me make a few observations. And I want to preface this with by saying that I'm not familiar with the BSA/One Minute Manager program, although I have had a number of other leadership courses over the years. First, you guys need to re-read DSteele's posts. He's making sense. All the courses I've had emphasize that every approach is "correct" in it's proper place. Second, I don't hear much about teaching. Except for Eagle74's #1 scenario in his last post, all of this is way too reliant on a sink-or-swim approach to teaching. You assume that the boys have the skills to develop a WORKABLE schedule and then stick to it. It also assumes that a negative outcome will result in positive changes the next time out. That will happen only if the boys are taught the proper skills to make positive changes. An element of that is what happen to the junior members of the patrol while the the PL and SPL are learning to lead? How many activities do they miss and how many ruined meals to they eat before their leaders get their acts together? How many miserable campouts do they endure before they decide Scouting is for the birds? The third aspect has to do with enforcement and compliance. All your scenarios end with the Scout seeing the error of his ways and walking the straight and narrow. "Gee, Mr. Cleaver, the other guys were sure sore at me for missing the hike. Next time I'll bring an alarm clock!" It doesn't account for the rebelliousness and general orneriness of your average 14-year-old male. Maybe the two breakfast cooks have decided their late-night game of Magic was a fair trade for missing the morning hike. Or maybe they think bucking the system is just cool. Who ultimately enforces the agenda and duty roster?

TP, I agree with you over the stupidity of the zero tolerence rules a which have good kids expelled for bringing a plastic knife to school with their lunch or giving an aspirin to a friend with a headache. But don't let your distain for the examples of stupidity blind you to the seriousness of this situation. This wasn't a hollow "I'm going to kill you" kind of threat. This was a 15-year-old in a leadership position pulling a knife and threatening a younger Scout with it. If you feel that this was just an example of youthful exuberence, what would the kid have to have done for you to have considered it a serious threat?

Bob I would agree with you if folks were walking around saying "the troop I own," or "the troop I run." While we all know there are Scouters out there who don't understand the program, I'm sure the vast majority of Scouters who use phrase "my troop" don't intend either of those two connotations.

I don't think it's a big deal. There is nothing wrong with everyone affiliated with a unit considering it as "their troop." To me is shows a bond and sense of commitment to the unit, not any sort of ownership or superiority. People frequently use the possessive when speaking of an organization to which they are simply a member. We often say "my church" or "my school" when we clearly aren't indicating any sort of ownership. It's a little silly to expect that folks are going to run around constantly saying "the troop which I serve" instead of simply "my troop." If you hear an adult refer to "my troop" and immediately assume that 1) they're not trained, 2) they don't understand how charters work, or 3) the unit isn't boy-lead, or some variation thereof, you probably should consider using a little less starch in your shorts.

I was our district's Roundup chairman last year and this was a real pain in the behind. We asked all the packs to bring their registration materials to our Roundtable location immediately following the School night session. Location is no excuse as we have a very small district, geographically, and our Roundtable site is no more that 15 minutes from any point in the district. I had the expectation that it would work like an election -- we would get all the results in and would know that night how the campaign had gone. FAT CHANCE. Maybe half the packs showed up. Even with the DE and myself physically chasing people down it was two weeks before we got all the numbers. You bring out some good points, FS, but most of those can be overcome it the Roundup Chairman and DE doing a good job with the advance work. We give each pack a registration packet that has all that information included. At the turn-in site, we have a lady from the Council office there to double-check the applications and fees, so the packs don't even have to do that. They can charge the fees to their Scout Shop account, so they don't even have to bring a check. Still, though, you have some who just don't care. My personal feeling is that they see it as part of the "numbers game" that the DE plays and don't think it is important. I don't know how you light a fire under those folks. You just end up chasing them down afterwards. Thinking about my expectation that Roundup night would be like election night probably isn't that far off. Years ago when I was a reporter for a small local paper, I was sent to one of the outlying counties to cover an election. Midnight came and went and we were still waiting for one precinct to report. Finally, the elections board sent a deputy sheriff to the polling place which was dark and locked tight. He went to the precinct official's house and found the guy in bed. Counting the votes had taken longer than they expected, so the guy decided to take the ballot boxes home with him and was planning to take them to the courthouse the next day. Go figure.

I've not bothered to re-read the whole thread, but I recall that JerryZ's original incident was more a matter of joking around but using poor judgement. "Take one more step and I'll knife you" is in a whole 'nother catagory. Yes, intent makes a difference. It seems apparent to me that the boy in Timm's post was intending to threaten and intimidate the other Scout. In my book, that's much more serious than a the first incident and requires much more serious consequences.

FOG that's just a red herring. Why doesn't BSA have a rule now prohibiting two female Scouters from taking boys on a trip? Same principle would apply.

I don't think you should draw a line in the sand and tell the day he can't tent with his son, but I would have a conversation at to why you don't think it's a good idea. We had a similar problem at Webelos Resident camp this summer. I had nine moms and dad and 18 boys. The first night out, a couple boys tented with their parent, but I think in both cases the boys' tentmates were arriving the late and the Scouts didn't want to sleep by themselves (fair enough). The second night, however, after lights-out my own son came to me and wanted me to tent with him because his tentmate had bugged out on him, moving in with his dad. After checking around, I realized that most of the Scouts with a parent in camp were tenting with their parent, having left their tentmates alone. I realize that a tent to yourself may be a prize perque for older Scouts, but them spiders can get awfully big when you tenting by yourself for the firt time and only nine years old. The next morning I called a leaders' meeting at which I explained to the parents that I was concerned that we may be creating problems with the boys who were left to tent alone. I also reminded them that a prime purpose of Webelos camp was to prepare the boys for Boy Scout camp next summer. While I didn't insist, I strongly suggested that they try to get their boys back in the tents with their buddies that night. To my knowledge they all did.

Ordeal in '72 and Brotherhood in '73. I was a member of Tali Tak Taki 70, which has since merged, but I think the new lodge still uses the 70 lodge number. I started paying dues with the local lodge a couple years ago, but made it clear that I consider myself inactive. I may become more active once my boys move into a scout troop.

Oh, come on, Ed. Do you believe in air only as a matter of faith? For the record: yes, I can touch air (I'm doing so now) and under the proper conditions, I can see it. I can prove its existence by conducting replicable experiments. I can measure it, I can weigh it, I can show its effect on other objects. The Webelos Scientist Activity Pin has some good, easy to do experiements which will deomonstrate these things. Are there not things in the material, physical world that you accept as a matter scientific fact? That the sun will set at precisely 7:54 this evening is a fact which can be proven and predicted accurately by astronomical observation and mathmatical calculation. The meaning of that sunset or the awe it inpires in you is a matter of faith between you and your God (god, gods, or not.) I don't see that holding one of those thoughts requires that we reject the other. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

As a couple folks have suggested, this is definitely a parent problem, not so much one with the boy. I think the mom's fear, Sctmom, is that the boy won't be allowed to participate. As Its Trail Day mentioned in an e-mail to me (while the server was acting up) parents of special-needs children are taught to be really aggressive to make sure that their children are accorded the help they need and are allowed to participate in various programs. I've tried to be clear with her that we want her son in the pack and will do everything reasonable to accommodate him, but we just need some time to get up to speed. In this case, her aggressiveness is working counter to her ultimate goal. She has everyone rocked back so far that our focus is on how to deal with her, not her son. In the few minutes I spent with the boy he seemed very withdrawn and unengaged. The mom says he tests at a 3-to-4-year-old level. I don't know if that means emotional, physical, mental or some combination of the three. I can envision that he would have problems focusing on a den program, particularly a craft or something where he needs to sit and listen. My expectation is that if there is a problem, they would excuse themselves so as not to disrupt the meeting. But that's the same expectation I would have with all the parents. I hear what you're saying about modifying the program to accommodate this Scout. And we'll do that to the extent we can as long as it neither dimishes the program for the other boys or puts a huge burden on the den leader. In my view, that's where the boy's parents needs to step in and do the extra work needed to accommodate their son. I suppose from a philosophical perspective, I don't really understand how mainstreaming a special needs child works if the mainstream program must be adapted to accommodate them. It seems to me to be a matter of reasonableness. If we had a boy in a wheelchair and needed to move our meetings to an accessible room, certainly we would do that. But it doesn't mean we're going to elimininate all physical activites from the program simply because he can't particiate. By the way, this boy is transferring from another pack in our district just for autistic children. He's been in that pack for a year and has already gone through most of the Tiger program there. (Yes, I've asked if he will be bored going through it again.) Age-wise, I don't know how they did that unless the other pack is a Learning For Life unit and the age requirements don't apply -- I don't really know. The mom says wants him in our pack because she is a member of our CO and we are about 20 minutes closer to their house. I'm sure the whole idea of mainstreaming him is part of it, too.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Last night was the first non-school night that was clear enough to get a good view. I've got a 4-inch reflecting scope which is just big enough to begin to make out some surface features. It's little mottled in color instead of being just a solid bright disk. We can't see the ice caps or anything like that. A year or two ago there was a similar fly-by with Jupiter and we were able to make out the red spot. That was pretty cool.

We do everything we can to try and encourage the moms to camp. While dads may bring the latest Binford fly rod, it's the moms who bring the big tin of chocolate chip cookies. There's not a lot you can do about facilities. But the bottom line is that camping is camping -- moms (and a lot of dads, for that matter) just aren't interested. But the one thing we can do is make sure they know they're welcome. From time-to-time we've had single moms (or just single-for-the-weekend moms) on campouts and we try to make sure they have plenty of help hauling gear, setting up tents and that sort of thing.