Twocubdad

I wasn't sure about Venturers either, FOG, but the section on Venturing uniforming says to "See the Boy Scout section for guidelines" regarding wearing Boy Scout advancement by Venturers. When you go to that section, the AOL is listed as a Boy Scout advancement insignia and says to wear it under the left pocket. There is some way to recognize the AOL on every other uniform, so it makes sense that Venturers can wear it too.

Glad to have you at the campfire, Jimmy. Hope you brought your own camp stool and cup. I think you've got it right, but it depends on how you are registered. Eighteen- to 21-years-olds in Boy Scouts are considered adults. If you are now registered as an adult leader with your troop, you may wear the adult knots. If you are registered as a youth member of a venture crew, go with they youth regs which say the actual AOL badge goes below the left pocket. Good luck on the Eagle BOR. (PS -- the pronoun "I" should be capitalized.) (PPS -- take the high road with the ADC and don't rub it in that you were right about the knots.)

I don't know if there is a difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts, but the Cubmaster reports to the pack committee, not just the committee chairman. Of course the COR or Institutional Head has to sign off on all adult applications. I've always looked at it as an "advise and conscent" relationship between the CO and the Pack committee.

I like FOG's approach. Go with your strengths. If your Scoutmaster "gets it" try to defer to his judgement as much as possible. Has the group been through Troop Committee Challenge together? Try to set it up. I wouldn't be suprised if old guard balks at it, but if so take the committee members training individually. (I've found that "do you want to go to training with me" works a lot better than "you need to go to training.") The other thing to do is to politick one-on-one with the other members of the committee and try to get them to "see the light." You and the SM can tag-team the other committee members, especially on campouts.

No, he can't go back. Once he starts as a Webelos, he can't complete his Bear badge. There is some lattitude at to where you draw the line -- end of third grade or beginning of fourth, when den metings end in the spring or begin in the fall. I'd do all I could to allow a boy to finish the badge. If a boy shows up at the first den meeting or two of the fall with his Bear requirements complete, I would certainly give it to him. But a some point you have to cut it off. If he's not finished by now (mid-September), it's time to move on.

First of all I would like to LOUDLY dispel the notion that whether or not or when one wears a uniform DOES NOT determine one's commitment to the program. And this is coming from someone who is pretty hard core about wearing his uniform. One of the absolute best volunteers in our unit and district won't wear a uniform. She's popcorn chairman for the pack, troop and district; organizes and fills in as den leader for her husband about half the time; was co-chairman of our district Cub campout last fall and an assistant camp director at day camp; plans, organizes and shops for meals; and does just about anything else that needs doing. I don't even know what all she does for the troop, but I'm sure something similar. I wouldn't trade her for a dozen beaded, fruit-salad generals. But she absolutely will not wear a uniform. I don't know why becase I've never asked and really don't care. Anyone who wants to give her grief over the matter better be prepared to deal with me. I think I've made myself clear on that. (Deep breath) Secondly, I think who wears a uniform has a lot to do with unit tradition, which I think is okay too. This isn't an official Pack policy (or even one we verbalize), but we sort of consider our den leaders and assistants and Cubmaster and assistants as the "officers" of the unit. All are expected to wear uniforms when working with the boys and to be trained. Our committee members are sort of looked at as the "enlisted men" and we don't expect training or uniforms of them. Heck, most aren't even registered. Their jobs are to chair specific activities or events and they come and go for the duration of their responsibilites. Only a handful of committee members serve for the full year. Is it really necessary that someone register, get trained and buy a uniform to be chair the Blue & Gold banquet or the Pinewood Derby? I know troop committees operate differently, but isn't this distinction even more applicable there? Don't troop committees operate even further behind the scenes, supporting the decisions of the PLC? (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

My mother-in-law thinks it is in her job description to make everyone dress up and go out to hoity-toity restaurants. She was very pleased one night when my 10-year-old announced at dinner that he knew what "haricort verts" were. "Yes, what are they?" she asked. "Fifteen-dollar green beans," he replied. That's my boy!

Just back from Roundup night, sitting here in full uniform. I think we all know the reasons for wearing the uniform. When those reasons are present, we need to wear it. Absent those reasons, a uniform is optional. And as DS and Eamonn suggest, there may be additional circumstances based on who else is or isn't in uniform. Dave! Where you been? I though I would have goaded you out of hiding earlier with the quip about professionals wearing the uniform all the time. By the way, 36 new boys registered tonight and at least another four or five we know about still coming. That's on top of 71 already on the roster. Whew!(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

All the male cousins in my family are Eagle Scouts (except one who is 12 and still working on it -- no pressure there). The last time a cousin earned his Eagle the rest of us got together and surprised him with our grandfather's old Scoutmasters' Handbook from the early 1940s. We actually did it as part of the ceremony. He was the first Eagle in a small country troop and the whole community was making a BIG DEAL out of it (the keynote speaker was a state senator). Despite all the other fuss, the handbook was probably the highlight of the ceremony for my cousin. Of all the grandchildren, he was probably the closest to our grandfather so the book was a very special gift. Now we've got to figure out how to top that for the next Eagle.

You're missing my point. I said we wear our uniforms anytime we are at an activity with youth members, Roundtable and most training courses. We typically don't wear them at adults-only committee meetings. Acco said while that's what usually happens, what SHOULD happen is we wear our uniforms to all Scouting activies. I'm only asking why we should. I suppose what we're in for is a hair-splitting debate as to what constitues a "Scouting activity." If all committee meetings should be uniformed, how about a trip to the Council office to pick up advancements? Or a one-on-one meeting with your DE? For that matter, why don't all professionals and other staffer all wear uniforms all the time? If there are no kids around, who is benefitting from the example we set? What's the purpose? If I may answer my own questions, may I suggest that there is a difference between a Scout activity and Scout business? I'm not saying it would be INappropriate to wear a uniform at any of these functions -- heck, you can wear your uniform 24/7 if you like -- just that it isn't necessary at business meetings.

Not trying to pick on you Rooster, but your list still primarily relates to faith and patriotism. Can we add to it? Compassion -- visit nursing home, or any number of service projects. Resourcefullness -- survival weekend, Einstein kits Courage -- COPE or obstacle course; program with a Medal of Honor recipient (this one we're trying to this with our pack) Responsibility -- tie-in with shooting sports, whittlin' or totin' chip Perserverence -- COPE or obstacle or any advancement which requires long-term project (fitness, personal finance, etc.) Can any one else add more? An important thing to remember is that these lessons don't have to be stand-alone, original programs. At day camp this year we asked our station managers to incorporate these values into their program. In some cases the program was adapted, for instance the Scouts ran the obstacle course in pairs, holding onto a length of string to show cooperation. Games were played with one team wearing goggles smeared with vasaline to simulate a handicap and teaching compassion. At other areas we didn't modify the program, but at the end of each session just connected to dots for the boys. At BBs and archery we explained that one of the things they were leaning was how to act responsibly with things that could be dangerous if misused. Fishing included a lesson on local game laws and why we should respect them. Etc., etc., etc. Of course the Character Connections and Ethics in Action materials includes a lot of this. One thing I like about the new Cub books is that while the requirements haven't changed much, they have been reworded to make the value they are teaching more obvious to the Scouts.

Keep in mind that when we go camping it's usually with 100 to 130 people -- 50 or 60 Cub Scouts, 10 or 20 younger siblings and 40 or 50 parents, half of whom stand around looking like a doe caught in headlights. So for us the perfect campground would have easy car access, but with parking some distance away; clean bathrooms with hot and cold water; a picnic shelter big enough to serve as camp headquarters, mess hall and emergency shelter; some conventional cooking facilities (at least a refrigerator or icemaker and sink); a large activity field; playground or other activity areas where the kids can play on their own; a fire ring to accommodate a crowd our size; a supply of firewood; tents and/or shelters for those who don't have their own; certified staff to run aquatics, climbing walls and BB or archery ranges, if the facilities are available (it makes our kids crazy to have those facilities but not be able to use them); and finally trails and woods close enough that we can get away from all this civilization once in a while.

I think you have to consider the other school schedule, but that doesn't meant you have to accommodate every break and holiday. You didn't say how many boys you have in you Pack in total. Are the 10 new boys a small minority or do they represent a big chunk of the unit? I think that makes a difference. Ninety percent of our boys attend the local public school, but we have 3 or 4 boys in each of 2 or three diffrent private schools. Obviously we can't accommodate all those schedules, so we go with the majority. Be careful that some of the parent's aren't basing their judgement on a feeling that the new boys are "interlopers." Someone signed their transfer application so they are equal members in the pack.

Devil's Advocate here with a question for you: how are the aims and goals of Scouting advanced by adults wearing their uniforms to a committee meeting in which no Scouts are present? How is the program benefitted by those folks taking the time to go home and change into their uniforms?

Of course we wear uniforms to any activity with the boys. But for adults-only meetings folks wear uniforms to Roundtable and most training courses. Uniforms are generally not worn for committee meetings, either unit, district or sub-committee work groups like camp staff. NWS is right that there is a separate position-specific course for committee members.

That's terrific, Cubs. I'm definitely going to use that. I try to include the aims, methods and values into a lot of my talks, but your list slices the loaf in a different direction that is probably more meaningful to the parents. Very good.

I don't disagree with your basic premise, Rooster. However I would add that in addition to Faith and Citizenship there are 10 other core values to the program: Compassion, Cooperation, Courage, Health and Fitness, Honesty, Perserverance, Positive Attitude, Resourcefullness, Respect and Responsibility. Notice that they are in alphabetical order. There needs to be a balance. Character isn't defined by faith and patriotism alone. How are you teaching compassion? What about courage? These values are more difficult to implement than a devotion or flag ceremony to open a pack meeting. I think the first step is to talk about these 12 values at parent's night and with your leaders. The top sheet in our packet at our pack planning last month was a sheet with the mission, aims, methods and values of Scouting. It will be the first thing we give our parents at our orientation this weekend. Of course I'm focusing on the Cub Scout program, since that's what I do and somewhat of a carry-over of the train of thought from the other thread. But substitute the 12 points of the Scout Law for the 12 values of Cub Scouting and the principle still applies.

Well said, NJ. I will add that I was taught that one of the reasons for the alcohol ban is that it is frequently a factor in cased of abuse. A person inclined toward abusing a child is much more likely to do so after getting a little loose on a couple or three drinks. Actually I believe Cordelia talks about this in the YP video.

We follow the doctor's order. The wine will be kept in the drug locker and will be dispensed by the heath officer at the proper time, sitting on a cot in the health lodge (no cheese and crackers around the campfire). But before hand I would have a conversation with the Scouter as to whether or not this is a real medical necessity or if he and a friendly docter were just having fun. Is that really the example he wants to set? If you really want to split hairs, what the policy says is "The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances..." It just says controlled substances -- no exemption for prescribe drugs. You don't think we should prohibit Scouts from taking prescribed medications just because they are on the DEA list do you? Ed, you slid you post in ahead of me. I agree with you. I'm really not as unretractable as my rhetorical posts may lead you to believe. I wouldn't throw you out of camp for showing up with your marinated beef. But as you said, we should err on the side of caution.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

(In full hair-splitting mode) FOG -- G2SS says "...BSA prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages..." My dictionary defines beverage as "any one of a number of liquids intended for consumption." Therefore an alcoholic beverage would be a liquid containing ethanol intended for consumption. It doesn't matter that the liquid isn't consumed as a stand-alone drink. Consuming it as an ingredient in another food product still makes it an alcoholic beverage. Further, since the "use" of an alcoholic beverage is prohibited, it doesn't matter if we drink it, use it in spaghetts sauce, rub it on our knee or put it in a camp stove. Of course, FOG, you can gerrymander the rules any way you like (see previous threads on how "may not allow the use of tobacco products" can be tortured to mean what we want it to). I'll stick with the obvious interpretation. If trustworthy means we can discard all precautions, why don't we allow Scouts to bring their own firearms to camp and keep them with them, allow youth and adults to tent together, and drop the two-deep rule? Hey, if you can't trust Scouts to behave and follow the rules, who can you trust?

I you're cooking for adults, Ed, that doesn't bother me at all. But as I said earlier, it's a can of worms which doesn't need to be opened. Last month the boys buy the prepared steak at the grocery store. This month they bring the home-made version. Next month they're running out of time, so they just stick the whole wine bottle in the backpack. The following month we're all in the SE's office because a couple boys decided drinking the wine would be more fun than cooking with it. The time to have handled the situation was during the first month. "Guys, I'm really pleased that you're trying to raise the bar with your cooking, but BSA has some really strict policies about having alcohol on Scout outings. I'm really proud of the initative your showing with your cooking, but how can we accomplish the same results while staying within the rules?" I'll also concede that there is probably some cultural element to the matter. In this part of the country, adding wine to the pork chops, collards, green beans and sweet potatoes isn't much of an issue. FOG, if the sherry has been rendered and says on the bottle 0% alcohol, then no problem. Simply show the bottle to the campmaster and ask him if he would like to join you for dinner. But I think the thread has opened the subject a little more broadly than whether or not cooking sherry is technically considered an alcoholic beverage. I'll have to go with Saltheart on this. It's a slippery slope that we don't need to be on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the original post had to do more with parents not making time for THEIR kid to participate in Scouting than it did with them taking time to volunteer to help with in a leadership position. Not that getting parents to volunteer isn't a problem, but we've chewed on that one before. We've touched on this before, too, but it doesn't seem to me that many families make commitments the way they used to. The old "we did Scouts this year, we think we'll do martial arts this year" routine. Or maybe we just didn't have all the choices years ago. It is amazing to me the kids who play three or four sports, have music, church, martial arts and Scouts -- of course they don't have much time. And the ones that really baffle me are the ones who play two ball teams at the same time! Since school was out in June, I've had three parents tell me that their son wasn't going to "do" Scouts this fall because they just don't have time. In two of the cases, the parent made the point that the boy really enjoyed Scouting and wanting to continue, but "something has to give." The other thing that was interesting was that in all three cases, the son in the pack is the youngest of three boy, the two older ones having graduated the pack and (to my knowledge) still active in Boy Scouts. It occurs to me that the parents are the ones burned out on Cubs. I have to admit I'm not really looking forward to building -- helping to build, helping to build -- our family's 7th and 8th Pinewood Derby cars later this year. Been there, done that, got the patch. But we'll do it, expecially with my younger boy who is two cars behind his older brother. I honestly don't know what to say to these folks and am somewhat burned-out myself on trying to deal with these parents. Personally, I think it really stinks that the parent won't support their younger boy, but it's not my place to say that. I find it very frustrating that we are loosing good, active Scout like this.

Maybe it's time for a status check on the thread, because it sure sounds like we are heading back into personal attack mode. Perhaps you should clarify your last sentence, 406, because it really doesn't make sense. But it sure sounds like your are saying I don't understand who the program is for. You don't know me well enough to make that judgement. It is ironic you would make such a baseless statement and then conclude the same sentence by saying we should "take the time to be a little more sensitive in our choice of words, for you never know who might be listening and how destructive it might be. "

You don't see a difference, le V.? Unless of course you want to claim that the sherry is for medicinial purposes. And we do have rules for securing medicines which apparently weren't followed. Look, I'm no tee-totaller, but someone did mention common sense earlier. It's common sense (and policy) that Scouts don't bring alcohol on a campout with them. It's also common sense (and maybe a little 8th grade science) that previously cooked spaghetti sauce doesn't contain any alcohol.

I think most cooking sherry either has no alcohol or has enough salt added to it to make it unfit to drink. But the bottle should be clearly marked 0% alcohol, which should have satisfied the ranger. But let's assume the sherry did have alcohol in it. The obvious problem is the boys having a bottle of sherry in their posession during the campout. How do we know all of it made it into the sauce? That's very different from the priest keeping the sacramental wine with him. The SM made a error in judgement allowing it. I really have a problem with the mom's attitude. There are plenty of recipies which don't need sherry. This just strikes me as a can of worms which doesn't need to be opened.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)